SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

The point RIO makes is that there are too many men who make a choice to take advantage of and even search out the opportunities. Not all men and not the majority, IMO, but too many.

And to further that point, when you have an A with a MM, you've self-selected into exactly that group. The men who would do it are the only men available (outside of single men) to have affairs with. You won't be sought out for an A with a MM by a man who's not searching for A opportunities, it's a bit of a totality.

question - do you ever call other men out on this?

if it affects you and is a distinct lack of morality that puts others in jeopardy, shouldn't all men try to put a stop to it?

I do not call out other men on it. I avoid it now (after my W's A) and before I didn't engage in it, but also didn't see "the harm" in it either. I know that sounds terrible, but I had no idea the harm these men were doing to other men, the women (who often wound up divorced if there was a d-day) and everyone around them. It seemed like "boys will be boys" fun, and, for the women, it seemed to play into the "women like sex just as much as men" narrative that I'd grown up with (especially if they were single women or professionals). If everyone likes sex as much as I do, what's the harm in seducing and sleeping with a new woman? She'll enjoy it the same as I will and the world is a happier place for both of us, right? And that applies for single men too out there "playing the field".

I sure hope most guys aren't that way.

Let's say most guys aren't, just for the sake of discussion (in my personal life, it seems like most guys are, but, it matters not for this). Almost all guys seeking an A are. See my previous point, having an A is self-selecting into the group of guys who are, indeed, exactly like this. And there's either a shocking cognitive dissidence going on here or a misstating of what is actually attractive in men (or perhaps both), but, any women having an affair is putting her marriage, her health, her children and sometimes her job on the line to be with a man who is exactly the person that you (and every other woman I know) "hope not all guys are like". There's something there that doesn't make sense, I struggle to figure out how to dissect it further, but it's just hard to understand how "I hate men who sleep around" and "I will blow my marriage apart to be with a man who I know is sleeping around" can be true at the same time. For me (and a lot of men I know), I didn't hate women who slept around. In fact, I really liked them because I felt like I could lie less about my intentions. No, I wouldn't marry a woman like that but that wasn't my goal, so my desires (sex) and the women I pursed (those who slept around) were aligned. In an A; if sex isn't the goal (find someone to love and respect me) and the actions (have an A with a MM) are totally out of alignment.

It's also a choice to not play with fire. Don't allow or put yourself in a situation where you are in a private setting with a member of the opposite sex. Don't play with fire, test the waters or push the envelop. Married men and even single men do that. They make the choice to not test their resolve.

That's my tactic. Why risk it? If I find a woman sexually attractive I'll distance myself from her because of the danger to my marriage. People make fun of me for this, even here, and say I'm too hard line on it. Well, guess what, if every one of our WS's had done the same, unless it was just a totally out of the blue come on (which is very rare), they could shut SI down and we could all go home, because very few/none of their affairs ever would have happened. I have a very low chance of getting into a car accident every time I drive. I still wear my seatbelt every time I'm in the car. It's just common sense, the upside (being able to bounce around in the car isn't worth the downside (going through the windshield and being scraped up off the pavement). Women are nice, I like to be around women and enjoy their company. But a woman who's "hot" to me? No, that's taking off the seatbelt to see what happens. And taking it further, having dinner/drinks with that woman? That's driving drunk at 100MPH to see if I can do it. It's just crazy reckless, IMHO. I hold this as a truth, if most people do it long enough, they will eventually fail. Maybe not this week, next month or even next year. But eventually, they will.

RIO - i think you're assuming a lot of forethought goes into having an affair. that WS should first be thinking how much this will cost them. they don't.

also, you act surprised that women don't know this and know how to protect themselves. You're not a woman and can't possibly know what it's like.

you got your wife to marry you. how did you convince her it was true love?

RIO - i think you're assuming a lot of forethought goes into having an affair. that WS should first be thinking how much this will cost them. they don't.

I guess that's it, right there. A lot of people "float" into an A without a lot of thought as to what they are are doing and why. I just don't know any people like that IRL (outside of my W). The guys I know, there's no "floating" they know what they are doing, why, plan to not get caught and how to maximize their enjoyment with the AP. It's much more calculated then what my W describes, however, I will say, while she describes it differently, the results aren't any different. She says a lot of "it just kind of progressed", which, I think is her reality, but the anatomy of what happened is really no different at all from the guys I know. It apparently doesn't take premeditation to plan and execute an A, you can do it all "heat of the moment". I'd argue that's not true though, it take premeditation from at least one of the AP's to make an A happen (particularly a PA) because, without that aspect, things will just drift along in nowhere's ville; perhaps an EA, but never a PA because sex doesn't "just happen". It's planned, always, by at least one of the participants.

you act surprised that women don't know this and know how to protect themselves. You're not a woman and can't possibly know what it's like.

No, I'm not. But I go back to what I said before, how is this not common knowledge? My father told me "don't be this guy" when I was about 10 and kept telling me until I was about 25. My girlfriends in high school all seemed pretty darn aware that guys were after their panties first, hearts/minds 2nd, or not at all. I mean, I'm just not sure where this disconnect comes from. No, I'm not a woman, but I can tell you, without being a woman that a large majority of women enjoy shopping, shoes and handbags. It doesn't require deep insight into the mind of men, especially for an older woman who's dated quite a bit, to know that there are a whole lot of men out who would enjoy sleeping with you, but have no interest in a relationship beyond that. I mean, I actually kind of feel silly typing it because I can think of 1000's of examples, pop culture, TV shows, movies, books.. That all pretty quickly illustrate the fact that, yeah, a lot of men are more interested in sex than a relationship. I'd think that most any woman who lived through high school and certainly through college would have seen enough of it first hand to realize it. And, closing on this, even a relatively sheltered woman is going to have a hard time (if not in an A) believing that they are the "love of someone's life" who's sleeping with and committed to another person (their wife).

how did you convince her it was true love?

I'm glad you asked this because it helps me illustrate the point. Of course, first off, I told her how I felt (which nearly every AP does too). But then, and this is the important thing, I coupled that with ACTIONS. I asked her to be exclusive and stopped dating other people. I asked her to spend more and more time with me. I asked her to move in with me. I asked her to marry me. I married her. At no point in there did I say "I want to marry you" and then went out and slept with her friend. My words and actions matched. That's what love is to me, it's not being able to say the word, or spin a tale of woe about how horrible you life is, it's saying the words and backing those words with actions that show how you feel about the other person. And I can't think of a more incongruent coupling of words than "I love you" and action; I'm going to leave now, go home and sleep with my wife. Or "Your are so special to me" and then scheduling the next sex date around his wife's travel schedule. I guess the comparison I would draw is physical abusers in a marriage who punch their "loved ones" in the face and then couple it with a "I love you more than anything else in the world". Yes, people do that, and yes, people get trapped in that, but we all look at them like "how can you not see this person for who he/she is??". I feel the same way about my wife and her AP.

"there are a whole lot of men out who would enjoy sleeping with you, but have no interest in a relationship beyond that."

this is very sad to me.

I don't want to generalize but I do think some people do float into an affair.

"there are a whole lot of men out who would enjoy sleeping with you, but have no interest in a relationship beyond that."

My current IC confirms this all the time with me. In fact he goes beyond that to say that even after M some men want more than what they've got at home. I guess for variety and that a lot of men will cheat after a child is born, which is exactly what happened with my WS.

I hate generalizations and maybe my IC is off his rocker but it makes me really scared and sad all at the same time. I feel like becoming a nun.

I don't want to generalize but I do think some people do float into an affair.

I absolutely agree with that statement. But where maybe we disagree, I don't think 2 people float into the same A. You can't have 2 "floaters" of you won't wind up with a PA. Think about it this way, when was the last time you were talking with someone and you accidentally said more than you intended to? Either a friend or work? Happens to me all the time. And it's a complete accident; I didn't intend to tell that person that, or let them in on that information, it just "slipped out". I see some EA's a lot like that, yes, you do it, and you are guilty of flirting/sharing too much, but it can really be an accident. It can also be entirely intentional, so, don't get me wrong, I don't excuse EA's, but, I can see how that can happen with 2 "floaters". Now, contrast that with, when was the last time you accidentally had sex with someone? I'm going to go way out on a limb here and say for most of us, the answer is "never". It takes planning (where to go, what to wear/not wear, condoms/no condoms, shower before/after, etc) to have sex with someone. Engineering a place where you are "alone enough" to do it. Making sure you're "ready" for it when the time comes. It's never an accident, at least, has never been an accident for me. If I'm having sex is because I intended to have sex.

this is very sad to me.

I see what would make you sad about it, but, here's the good news. It's easy to avoid these men. Don't have an affair. They'll eventually give up and move along when they realize you aren't game for some sex on the side. I personally think it's sad that so many women spend some much of their disposable income on shoes (making this factious to illustrate a point). Can't imagine being with someone like that. But, good news, all I need to do is see her closet when we're dating, if there's 100K in shoes in there, well.. Probably should look elsewhere for a girlfriend.

I don't want to generalize but I do think some people do float into an affair.

I aboslutely agree. I personally would go further and opine most people "float into an affair"

If you believe affairs are fantasy-based endeavors, then it is critical to reject any sobering realities. Just like your favorite fantasy novel/film, a willful suspension of disbelief is necessary to get any sort of satisfaction or enjoyment from an affair. If you watched "Stars Wars" and analyzed every scene by applying the laws of physics as we understand them, it would be a terrible movie because nothing would make sense.

Maybe some people float into affairs but, IMO, most don't. There had to be something there that initiated going further and further. From my understanding one doesn't become an alcoholic without taking the first drink, or a cokehead without trying coke for the first time. There had to be an openness to seeing where this friendly smile might lead. It didn't "just happen" as has been an excuse used by WS more than once on SI.

Some people float into affairs but, IMO, most don't.

I think this is really what sets an EA apart from a PA. I can totally understand "floating into" an EA. Sharing too much, getting to close to someone else and then starting to develop feelings, yes, that seems like something that could "just happen" to me without premeditation. A PA, however, totally crosses that line for me. Where there are blurry lines being crossed all over in an EA, the PA line is bright, bold and distinct. You know you're crossing it, you intend to cross it and one AP or the other (IMHO, this is my personal theory, not gospel) has planned and acted out a plan to cross that boundary. You can accidentally find yourself sharing too much with someone (of either sex), you NEVER accidentally (at least I don't) find your penis in someone else's vagina. That's a planned/premeditated thing, not an accident. It might feel like "it just happened", I can assure you, at least in my personal life, it did NOT just happen. If you didn't plan it, I did. Or maybe we both planned it. But it never "just happens" because it takes active action to make it happen, not just a laissez-faire attitude about personal boundaries.

willful suspension of disbelief is necessary to get any sort of satisfaction or enjoyment from an affair.

If you're in the A for love/affection/caring or any of the million other reasons that people give that make my head hurt, yes, you need a suspension of disbelief (basically, you need to lie to yourself) to get enjoyment from the A. If you're in the A for sex, well, no suspension of disbelief is needed, you're actually getting sex, no "Star Wars" special effects required.

If you believe affairs are fantasy-based endeavors

Some are. From my W's perspective, her A was a fantasy based endeavor. From the OM's perspective, I don't think there was any fantasy at all necessary apart from perhaps the mistaken belief "I will not get caught". But that's not nearly as fanciful as the "he/she loves me" fantasy, depending on who you believe, many to most A's don't result in a d-day (they are never discovered). So, the OM might have had even odds, that's not a great chance of success, but it's not awful. And the odds for sex in an A, assuming you can get the AP alone, approach 100%, so, again, good odds, no need for fantasy there. Odds for the "fantasy based affair" where the fantasy isn't sex in the backseat of the family minivan but instead is "He/she loves me and we're going to be together", terrible. So bad that I would agree with you, that's just fantasy, it's not going to happen IRL.

One thing about this whole thing that I've found surprising is how many people think her getting half is bullshit. They think it's "too much money" for her to get "just because he cheated" and "it was his money and his company". I even saw people say "don't get married if you plan on making money!" Erhm....how about you keep your dick in your pants?! I mean seriously! He must not be that smart or doesn't really mind handing over half his fortune just because he had an affair.

I think she should get more than half. She was there with him through the whole period he built everything. I expect she had a lot to do with the decision making, too.

I think she should get more than half. She was there with him through the whole period he built everything. I expect she had a lot to do with the decision making, too.

I really struggle with this internally. First off, while it's a crazy sum of money, JB handing over 50B dollars (1/2) is going to impact his life a LOT less than a normal man/woman handing over 100K in a D. There's nothing you can buy with 100B that you can't buy with 50B. There are a lot of things you can't buy with 100K that you could with 200K. So, part of me thinks it's reasonable and just. Add in the cheating, and, while "no fault" is now nearly the rule of the land, there's a certain punitive element that speaks to me in it too. Good, you asshole, you lost 50B dollars for an orgasm.. Maybe that'll keep you from doing it again. Of course, it won't, because, as said above, 50B or 100B, it really doesn't matter, you can't spend all that money anyway.

The downside is the "lottery" mentality that this kind of settlement brings to the forefront of society. What's the easiest way to make 50B dollars? Marry a man or woman who has 100B and get a D. And, this is where the dark side of no fault comes in, if she were the cheater, would we still feel OK with her getting 50B? Because the law doesn't care at all anymore. It's not about who did what wrong, it's all about how much your H/W made during the M. And that's the "lotto" mentality, was her marriage any worse than mine? Why should she get 50B when if I D'ed my wife, I'd have to pay? It just seems grossly unfair to so unequally yoke the partners no matter who did what wrong. It's just a hard one to sort out in my head. Moral hazard is a real thing, if you knew you could make 50B dollars by sleeping with the pool boy or nanny (if you were the cheating/lower income spouse), well.. That's a lot of incentive to cheat. And while the reverse it true too, losing 50B dollars for a roll in the hay seems a bit expensive to me (what do I know though), it's not enough to keep people from doing it.

Well, that was all useless, I drew no conclusion or even a position on it. Guess you can probably tell, I'm conflicted.

I even saw people say "don't get married if you plan on making money!" Erhm....how about you keep your dick in your pants?!

While in this case, that's clearly the answer, the D settlement upcoming wouldn't be any difference if she'd been the one who didn't keep her "p**sy in her panties". And maybe that's where I have the moral breakdown and start to feel like "this isn't fair", he cheated in this case, so it feels "OK" to me. But if it were her that cheated, I think I'd feel very different and the law would not, she'd still be in line for 50B. And that feels wrong to me.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 6:50 AM, January 16th (Wednesday)]

Whenever a celebrity couple faces (possible) infidelity a thread starts on SI I think to myself:

What if the betrayed spouse is seeking help and guidance?

What if Elen Nordegen or MacKenzie Bezos found us when looking for some light in their darkness?

Would finding their case in a special topic in General or Off Topic help them?

Or would they want the option of being able to post anonymously and without prejudice in JFO and get help and support?

"Or would they want the option of being able to post anonymously and without prejudice in JFO and get help and support?"

couldn't this be happening anyway?

I think she should get more than half. She was there with him through the whole period he built everything. I expect she had a lot to do with the decision making, too.

They both quit their high paying Wall St. jobs and moved to WA to start Amazon. She was one of the original employees of the start up. I read MacKenzie wrote checks and assisted in keeping track of the books. A WIRED profile of Jeff from 1999 noted that she helped negotiate the retail giant’s first freight contracts. As the company grew bigger and hired more staff, MacKenzie played less of a role in Amazon’s day-to-day operations, though she continued to support Jeff at company events. WA is a common law state so she will likely get half.

As for the AP, she has cheated in every serious relationship she has been in. It broke up one engagement and now her current marriage. I am sure when she gets bored of Jeff she will cheat on him too.