SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Good morning everyone. I met with OBS again at her request the other day and it has ramped up the anger meter a bit. This tends to happen anyway on the 5 day stretches without my boys.

Aside from texts about kids, STBXW is staying away. But each time we do talk, more pain. Most recently, it's waffling over her own support numbers, wondering aloud if she deserves more. Apparently her mother is guiding her through this. Her mother knows nothing about the affair, because STBXW wanted it that way. I've said in other posts that her shame is massive here, and I still feel if I tell her parents it may forfeit any remaining decency in this process. That said, knowing her parents are coaching her to get more is aggravating and makes me wonder how to proceed.

Anyway, that's not my question todat. With that as a background, I'm curious if people have resources on forgiveness following infidelity that are relevant to those who choose D. It seems most forgiveness resources somehow presuppose R, or at least presume you aren't being milked dry in ongoing separation agreement negotiations. By forgiveness, I mean some route to indifference and ditching the resentment for my own sake (I have no plans to break NC at the moment). Is that even possible before D is final? Any books to share? I've read Desmond Tutu's Book of Forgiving, maybe need to read it again.

Oh, and a reminder that STBXW's current mindset is "we share equal responsibility for our marriage disintegrating" - in other words, she takes minimal responsibility even after months of working on things and I don't suspect she ever will. So we're talking Zen Master, Jedi mind tricks level forgiveness. But, I am serious with respect to that goal, partially for my own sanity, partially because I don't want to be driven to retaliation (eg ruining her reputation) as she is still the mother of my children.

Oooo....Zen master, Jedi mind tricks...got my attention.

I can tell you what I’ve personally learned through all my spiritual enlightenment pursuit through all this very long mess - with the caveat that I am obviously not there...

Forgiveness is not an obtainment...not some series of steps that you can apply and BOOM, you’re there. Rather it’s a by-product of the process. You can want the peace that comes with it...but you can’t get it by setting IT as your goal.

I’ve learned that I have to feel my feelings around all of this. And that’s a challenge because it’s not a one time thing. They come in layers, waves. I find myself suddenly emotional over small incidences that happened years ago...that seemingly have little significance in regards to the bigger egregious picture. I use to try to push those down. They felt like slipping back into the abyss...and why would I want to do that over this?? This so small thing that obviously makes so much more sense when I can now see the big picture? Of course he was just picking a fight that day so he could justify slipping off to see (one of his many) affair partners.

But that’s just it. It wasn’t the big picture that was so hurtful...it was the thousand cuts that occurred along the way. THAT was what I was experiencing at each step...that was what had brought me to this enormous injury that I couldn’t seem to heal and move beyond (which is what we also equate with forgiveness). You can’t just forgive and by-pass all the pain that needs that forgiveness. That’s why I say that forgiveness cannot be the intent. I can’t forgive what I don’t really and truly recognize. And that was also why I kept feeling like I was failing at forgiveness....why the feelings kept surfacing over and over again.

So...let’s talk about feeling the feelings. This can’t just be an intellectual process. The moment you are trying to understand the feelings - whether that be through connecting dots (see above) or validating, judging, assigning blame, etc - you are in your head. And that is not where you feel. I don’t know how to explain the process to you...you can see the conflict in that since explaining is intellectual. However, there’s good information out there so do some research just about “feeling your feelings”. I can tell you this much from my own perspective that when I am in a place of feeling my feelings, it’s like a switch has been flipped, the brain side goes quiet and becomes more an observer. Since learning how to silence the brain is often critical to the process, meditation can help. I thought I was just out of touch with my feelings, sometimes wondering if I could even uncover them...like they were buried so deep that it would take Herculean efforts. But really, they’re just under the surface. Quieting the brain can be so very effective is opening that gateway.

Then one final thought - which has been so surprising to me. Gratitude. Not the Pollyanna, look on the bright side, count your blessings kind of gratitude - though those perspectives can make you more receptive. But the sincere gratitude...what’s left once some of the feelings have been processed. Sometimes that gratitude is as simple as my most recent post here....just grateful that I’m not having to deal with some aspects of it al that was so horrible. This is not the bartering kind of gratitude...not the “well I don’t have to play marriage police anymore - but now I don’t get to see my kids every day”. No...just the gratitude without the comparison. Re-framing can help with this. “This relationship often made me feel unworthy. I’m glad I’m not having that experience now.” Big or small, finding gratitude for the one blessing - without the comparison - can be incredibly healing. The brain will want to knock that down, will want to point out how some consequence trumps the gratitude. ”Yeah...but I don’t get to see my kids every day now.” Learn how to reframe those so they aren’t connected. Let the negative one just be a feeling...get in touch with it, really feel. “I’m sad that I don’t get to see my kids every day. I miss them so much when apart. I feel like I am missing out on parts of their life. I’m lonely when I’m not with them.” CUT! Scene 2 (not Take 2). “I’m so glad I am not in a relationship that causes me to constantly question my worth.” - All that to say - I started noticing that feelings of true forgiveness begin to surface after I find gratitude...that perhaps gratitude is the prerequisite to forgiveness.

Hope that makes sense and is of some help.

I just noticed, too, that your separation date was very recent. OMG...for the first six months or so after separation I was a COMPLETE wreck. Showering, getting out of pjs were major accomplishments. Actually fixing something to eat (rather than relying on saltines) was an incredibly good day. It was an up-and-down even worse than the first dday. I was so all over the map that I was actually concerned for myself. I had serious and pervasive doubts that I would ever be anywhere close to normal again. Without the announcement of a first grandbaby just a WEEK after he left, I seriously think I would have offed myself. I’m not saying that lightly. While it felt like such cruel timing on Life’s part, I now see it as perfect. I think it was specifically to demand that I continue to be here - and even at that, it was still a real and constant struggle. I was that big of a mess. So be kind to yourself during this time. I could not see how incredibly hard it all was - I just thought I wasn’t dealing well. I wasn’t - but it is also INCREDIBLY hard. Before the divorce was final, my 16 yo dog (who I really believe came into my life as my spirit guide - notice my join date) and beloved father both died. Emotionally, those things were a walk in park compared to all my feelings over the marriage itself (all those injuries) and the ending of it. I miss my dog and dad so much more than I now miss my marriage - but my essence was so fucked up from all the maltreatment of the marital relationship that finding closure and acceptance was much more a monumental task.

I’ll say it again - be incredibly kind to yourself. Be gentle. You deserve that much. It’s not wasted time either. Learning how to do this now will be of incredible value as you move forward into any/all of your relationships. Part of the reason we could accept and tolerate such unkind treatment in our primary relationship is because we had not already set that higher standard in how we treated ourselves. This is really the most important work you can ever do.

Thanks, truth, for taking the time to offer your experience and this guidance.

You've definitely given me pause. First, regarding the million small cuts. We're about six months from D-Day - but only a few weeks from moving out, a couple weeks more from learning about her new boyfriend and handful of other awful things. I think there was an initial breath of fresh air upon moving out and I should have seen the subsequent lows coming.

The second thing that struck me was your emphasis on self-compassion. I'm a physician and I spend a lot of time walking with people through their own trauma. I think my own standard for myself was much, much too high as far as resilience goes. This isn't helped by a STBXW who literally mocks the notion of "trauma" every time she feels slighted or threatened (i.e. most of the time).

Frankly, I kind of dislike the word "trauma," having seen how it can be attached to individuals almost like a psychiatric diagnosis, or how it can sometimes be used to almost equalize very different negative experiences - the concept of microaggressions and so forth - but at the same time, I don't have any other framework to describe these last six months that improves on "the most traumatic experience of my life so far." I just try not to dwell on it and avoid living as a "victim," which is the last thing I want.

I think I can get there. But I have to acknowledge I'm a long way from it and perhaps there's no shortcut as you suggest. Take today as an example: my plan for the day included doing some paperwork and collecting documents for my lawyer, vacuuming, cleaning a bathroom, doing laundry, getting groceries, playing with the kids who come later this afternoon and pay some bills. My actual day went like this: wake up at 9 am with laryngitis, take two hours to reflect and eat breakfast and shower and post on SI, get groceries, make lunch and then collapse in a fog of vague discontent and futility while postponing everything else on the list (aside from the kids, who are so good at keeping me out of this fog when they are here and awake).

Truth, it sounds like you were in a similar place by six months. How did things pan out after that? People talk about 2-3+ years in R, but what about when pursuing D? Is it even possible to let go of resentment when negotiating an agreement? We have months to go before things will be signed, presumably.

[This message edited by unspecified at 1:11 PM, February 3rd (Sunday)]

Forgiveness is an action that may come over time.

It's not saying "I forgive you" and it just magically happens.

IMO forgiveness right now this early should not be your concern. Getting the best settlement you can is more important.

This is a business decision now so keep it that way. Don't let your heart interfere with your mind.

What ever you sign up for you get to live with forever.

Hi unspecified. You asked about the timeline even with D. It varies, but I think for most of us it takes longer than we hoped. For me, I’m just over one year from D (2+from D-Day) and the roller coaster of emotions is much better, but every now and then it takes a dip unexpectedly.

My form of forgiveness ends up being more that I forgive him for not being the person I thought he was. I do not in any way forgive his actions or the pain he caused me, especially the false R.

But as I accept and forgive him as the super f’d Up massively flawed morally corrupt person that he actually is (or became, doesn’t really matter), it relieved some of my bitterness.

And then I walk away and keep moving forward.

But don’t rush the process — same as don’t wallow. But like a broken bone, you can’t hurry the healing. You can give your heart and head the rest and space and reflection they need to heal.

And yes, the No contact no new hurts is a legit motto here. Talk about kids and finances only.

Best of luck— keep being an awesome dad and you will get through this.

Oh my goodness, unspecified...I'm so glad your clarified your day's plan vs. reality - and even at that, you're still way ahead of me! Still in pjs, a house needing cleaning, though I did drop off a deposit at the bank and stopped at the local market. Some weekends I don't shower at all...some I get in my pjs on Friday evening and don't change again until Monday morning. The difference is I now totally luxuriate in this. Rather than a whipping post it's a treat...an act of wildly adoring self-care.

I share that now because it's a perfect example of that self-compassion, kindness thing. Same behavior...different perspective. Though I do find it fascinating how my inner spirit seemed to understand the value of this although my brain once thought it indicative of dysfunction. As a physician, I'm sure you also have a healthy respect for how "the body keeps the score". Just one more indication of how the brain really shouldn't be given the keys. But I digress. (Although I will also add - the trauma thing. I think that's just another idea that the brain likes. Not that trauma isn't real...just how the brain likes to take a concept and analyze it, categorize it, etc.)

The thousand cuts thing...and this is just speaking from my own experience, no research that I can specifically point to (but bet I could probably find )...I just seen how things could continue to come up, over and over..that from a logical perspective I think I should have processed. Hey..didn't I cry this specific part out when I was crumbled on the floor all those many times after dday? Umm...kind of. But not completely. Because I may have cried for that end result. -- OMG...he was cheating! But I hadn't yet cried for the day that I was so confused and bewildered and HURT by that specific fight that he picked...that he choose that one thing to focus on. (This is all just a specific example - but I had LOTS of them.) My own high resilience also played a big role in these delayed reactions..setting the stage for this requirement to process a lot of shit much later after it had happened. Each of those thousand cuts should have been intolerable. Had I been processing them at the time, I would have tapped out of this a long time ago. But I didn't...because I could "take it"...for the greater good...which suddenly turned to shit. So here I am - which may be where you are too. I guess that's the downside to "not taking the garbage out sooner"...pretty rank when you have to do it later.

As to a way of letting go of resentment when negotiating?

I don't know. But if I'm speaking just from my own perspective - I don't think so. It's kind of an insult to injury. You've screwed me over, lied to me for years, made me feel bat-shit crazy much of the time - and now you want me to be nice as you take half my stuff AND a large part of my time with my kids? If it had been anyone else that had tried that, I would have killed them - probably without having to even get to the idea that we needed to negotiate. But for obvious reasons, not an option, so I say that to point out - gently - how obnoxious an idea that we can get through this final aspect of the big screw-over without feeling quite a bit of resentment. I'm not sure it would be normal or healthy if you didn't (back to that resilience and burying feelings thing).

What I can absolutely tell you is - this all really does get better. Don't let the X amount of years thing scare you. It's not a prison sentence that you serve until you are released. It gets a little better every day...some days it gets more better (yes...I know that's not grammatically correct - but still true) than others. I would say the hardest part of it is in remembering that on some of the worst days you are doing the foundational work for the better days. As I look back on it (separated almost 2.5 yrs, D 09/18), I really, really see the value in those really, really bad days. So the best advice I could give you is - try to love them because they are most definitely moving you forward.

Lean into the grief work, my friend. That was the motto I held throughout all of this. I tried really hard to give myself over to whatever I was feeling...to just let it be whatever it was (not trying to change it) and to allow myself to be present in it however I was showing up - no judgment.

If you buy into her notion that you are 50% responsible for the marriage failing, then you should be able to just forgive her, shake hands and move on.

But you aren't 50% responsible for the marriage failing. You are 0% responsible. You were in the same marriage as her and you didn't solve your grievances about the marriage by having an affair. The affair is 100% responsible for the failure of your marriage.

Truthsetmefree explained perfectly where the forgiveness will come from. And it will be for you, not for her. For your peace of mind. But I don't think you'll get there as long as you are keeping secrets and allowing lies to carry the day. Secrets are bad for your soul. Secrets are bad for your children. Secrets are bad all the way around. And they'll eventually come out and the fallout won't be pretty. I think you might look long and hard into where your angst is coming from and consider the possibility that she's gotten away with the most vicious of betrayals and you've been gaslighted into going along with it and playing "nice."

That's just my 2 cents. There's a lot of great reading on the left side of the page under the heading The Healing Library.

Good luck to you and do keep posting and reading the responses you get. If you don't related to my reply, just keep reading cuz others will have lots to say from a variety of viewpoints. Only you know your situation and what will work for you.

Your separation is very recent so I think your feelings of despondency and injustice are extremely normal. Also, having kids means she'll be into your life for some years. That does slow down the process a lot. Especially if you're dealing with an unremorseful high conflict personality.

That being said, before reaching forgiveness/indifference comes letting go. Letting go of the marriage, letting go of the injustice, letting go of the shared dreams etc. You've chosen not to publicize her affair so no surprise that she's taking advantage of that. Personally I'd let her mother know in a brief conversation but it's your call. Be at peace with that. Waiting around for karma or for her to get her head out of her a** is a futile endeavor. You can't control her or what she does/says so let it go. Try to not react in any way(positive or negative) to her provocations. Just trust that she sucks and you don't want her in your life. One thing I later realized that used to set me back a lot is friends or acquaintances bringing up the relationship. Those grapevine rumors used to ruin my days during the divorce. If you're keeping tabs on her, stop that immediately. Tell the friends to not bring it up as it makes you uncomfortable. Hire a professional if you wish to vent it out.

I kept repeating in my head "The marriage is done!The marriage is done!" till it sank in. My XWW did ghost me so it made things a lot easier. The ultimate goal is to reach a state of casual indifference where you'll be able to brush her off without a second thought. Till then, fake it till you make it. First year of separation is very crucial.Your meetings with her here will set the tone of your future interactions till the kids are of age.

A book that was extremely helpful to develop this mindset of only reacting to things that I can control and acceptance is "The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck."

[This message edited by Rustylife at 2:12 PM, February 3rd (Sunday)]

I’m only about 2 months from d day.

I have sympathy for wh, as he is suffering the consequences of his behaviour. He’s living alone, his kids are angry with him.

But. I have been letting him use that sympathy to come and go, to talk about reconciling, etc. But his behaviour involves continued lying.

I think decisions require sometime to think and some space to find yourself. I don’t know how people remain in the same house. I would be angry or mean all the time.

I’m focusing on my things. Getting the house declittered, my job, my kids. I go to yoga every day. I watch Netflix. I bought myself a new car so I have reliable transportation.

The w needsto do their work. I’m not sure how they even realize what that is, but it must require feeling the shame and regret, the consequences of their unethical behaviour.

You should call your MIL and tell her, calmly. Why are you protecting anyone?

Fear, honestly. I realized that some time ago. STBXW alternates between overt cruelty and some weird shame in which she is offering a settlement that seems to be somewhat favourable for me. I mean, I'm getting unbelievably screwed for years no matter what happens, but if we asked a judge, I think I'd likely end up much more screwed.

So I've tried not to inflame the situation and her cruel/angry side where possible until the ink is dry. Trust me, telling her parents would precipitate all-out war and I have little appetite for that. It's a bit of a pragmatic solution to just stay quiet and focus on my own recovery.

So much good advice from everyone. Lots to ponder. Maybe letting go is the more proximal goal right now - letting go of her and her actions, her story telling, some mutual friends, her family, and the financial outcome which sits largely in her court as I was the sole earner.

As for the toxic nature of secrets: I just went to see Ibsen's A Doll's House this week without familiarizing myself with the plot. Let me say, avoid this if you aren't looking to open some wounds. The play deals with a woman who becomes enmeshed in the lies she tells her family, and there is some very explicit content relating to the insidious effects deceit can have on families and children. Chilling, but I don't worry about my kids - I'm grateful for the relative clarity they now have.

Hey Unspecified - sorry you are going through this - it gets better.

I spent a lot of time trying to "forgive" my XH and the AP early on. IMO forgiving is really more of a choice than a feeling. It's an easier choice as you are able to let go of your M and WW. I can now say that I forgive my XH. I in no way think what he did was ok, I just don't feel like he owes me a debt anymore. I actually feel more sorry for him than anything else. He's the one who has to live with himself and all the destruction he caused. We get along just fine for the benefit of our children and they seem to be doing really good as a result.

The good news is that I no longer feel responsible for him or his choices. I no longer feel like a victim either. This experience is a "TRAUMA" make no mistake about it. But It is one that you can use to make yourself a better person. I think that I am a more compassionate person now. My self worth is at a all time high. And I certainly won't take this BS from anyone ever again. I know that this experience has forced me to take better care of myself which is an amazing, unexpected gift.

I used to have 1 good day for every 10 bad days. I now have mostly all good days. Just takes time ...

The definition of "forgiveness" is different for everyone. You need to find what works for you, personally. Some need to actually forgive, others don't, and everyone has their own take on either.

For me, personally, I will never "forgive" Xhole. What he did was unforgivable in my book. That does not mean I wallow in anger and hatred though. Quite the opposite. What worked for me was reaching acceptance - accepting who/what he is, what he has done, and that I can never change any of it. My acceptance allows me to move on in peace about the whole situation.

Forgive him? Never going to happen in my lifetime.

But be aware, no matter what angle you take, there are no short cuts. It takes as long as it takes. You are still early. It's going to take time, but I promise you will get there.

*duplicate*

[This message edited by Phoenix1 at 6:35 PM, February 3rd (Sunday)]

Interesting the range of views on what forgiveness is in this setting. Some of it comes down to semantics and you could probably substitute other words like acceptance or peace.

I don't intend to forget, and it's possible I'll hold on to some of the resentment, too. I want to arrive at a more functional co-parenting relationship with STBXW one day, but I doubt I'll let her in my house beyond the front door. For now at least, I need to keep some of the awful things she did and said close to mind so that I never forget how toxic she is for me.

The perspective you all offer is helping. I'm three weeks from the day I collected my last few things from my house and then left it and it became her house. I still can't really parse the feelings there and clearly that's the project for the year to come before any real peace will be found.

But I appreciate the emphasis on the process. Each day can be better, I see that. There are aspects to rebuilding, like creating new traditions with my boys, that are keeping me going at this point. Tonight, my youngest literally jumped for joy in his room and shouted, "Daddy, this room is just SO FUN!"

Okay, one small success. :)

Forgiveness is a challenging concept for me. I’ve had a number of people do me very wrong. Where I struggle is in forgiving those who do not feel (or won’t admit) they’ve done wrong. In the case of my XH, I’m not at forgiveness because he continues to do hurtful things, and now does hurtful things to our young adult children. I see their pain, and am reminded of how completely remorseless he is.

We all see the platitudes about forgiveness. How acid destroys the vessel in which it is carried. I have made peace with not having forgiven certain people because time has allowed me to not dwell on my anger. It is not something that eats at me daily, but when it comes up I know that I have not forgiven. I probably never will, and I think that’s ok unless a day comes where I receive a heartfelt apology and request for forgiveness.

You are so new in the process and your WW is not accepting responsibility, so go easy on yourself and maybe put this on the back burner. I also wanted to protect my XHs precious reputation, but you may find in time this is not really your problem anymore. They weren’t too ashamed to do it, just too ashamed to have people know.

Forgiveness is fucking elusive (I think it might have been Keats or maybe Bryon or Shelley who said that! ).

I have an easier time thinking about ‘capacity’ when it comes to people who have shown themselves to be destructive with other people’s feelings and lives.

Does your soon to be XW have the capacity to own what she has done to you? Seems like the answer is No. It seems like there are elements of higher level emotional intelligence she simply is incapable of grasping. Something is broken or skewed in her either through upbringing or chemistry that limits her capacity for empathy, respect, honesty, integrity, and loyalty. You don’t have to forgive a tree with root rot that fails in your garden. You don’t have to forgive the parasites in the fish tank that muddy the waters. That is their nature. There is no capacity there.

Once you realize that who she is doesn’t require forgiveness, but rather recognition, it is easier. I’m flubbing this a little. Trying again.....

My grandmother was a bitter old bigot who thrust her bible in our faces growing up using scripture as a battering ram to ensure we all looked like the most well behaved, morally upright, and model Christians. Inside her though was hate and anger and unyielding rigidity when it came to her fellow man. She wasn’t able to feel anyone’s pain or anguish. She just wasn’t capable. She had no capacity to actually love me for who I am. Nor did she love my brothers. It was clear and although people generally get uncomfortable when a statement like that gets made, it wasn’t because we were unloveable. It is because she lacked the capacity.

I didn’t need to forgive her for that. It was as much a part of her as her red hair, those damned girdles, and that well worn copy of the King James Version. I just needed to recognize it.

I don’t hold it against her. In my mind, she was born without something important and precious. I pity her for not being able to experience the great joy some of the qualities she was missing would have brought her. In some ways, it was a life wasted. I remember people looking down at her in the casket and muttering “she was such a good person.... backbone of the family.... look at her fine children and grandchildren.... she loved them so...

The truth is, we were not loved, but we were useful to her for various complicated reasons that don’t matter for our purpose here. The truth is she couldn’t love us because of capacity. I don’t need to forgive that anymore than I would need to forgive someone Missing something else in their makeup. I just need to recognize it and keep moving forward.

Time does help, but not because the memory fades, but rather because time naturally is contemplation’s partner. You’ll come to realize with time you were married to a dented can from the supermarket clearance shelf, only the dent was cleverly concealed on the underside. Once you recognize her limitations and lack of capacity, you’ll know that forgiveness doesn’t matter.

I’ve tortured enough metaphors tonight.... and potentially given several Internet strangers a reason to be cheesed off at my dead granny.

If it helps, granny was plagued with an astonishingly large butt.

Granny was plagued by an astonishingly large butt.

For some reason that gave me the giggles. But loved you metaphors!!