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M1965 posted 6/29/2019 12:59 PM

Director,

At the risk of being called cynical, it looks like your WW is actively trying to manipulate both you and the OM to suit her own agenda. And in a quite blatant and simplistic way.

I did ask her about having POS in our house, and she told me that she felt threatened to let him see his son.

Has she explained what the 'threat' was that forced her to unwillingly bring the OM into the shared home? Who threatened her, and in what way?

...she said she feels like she is being forced to have him in her life and she doesn't want that at all.

In reality, she chose to voluntarily and happily invite the OM into her life, and to force him into the lives and family of you and your son. Do not lose track of reality when she is portraying herself a poor victim of circumstance. She created every single aspect of this. It did not have to happen; she made it happen.

She mentioned that she hoped that I wouldn't file to disestablish paternity of POC Child as that opens up the door for POS to file to establish paternity.

So in other words, what SHE wants is you taking full legal responsibility for the OM's child, because that suits HER, while she is simultaneously inviting him into the home - against the terms you agreed - so he can bond with his child.

So while the OM was in the house 'under threat', what do you suppose she was saying to him?

She is trying to play both of you, and if she has to play you both off against one another to get the easiest ride for herself, she will do it without batting an eyelid.

Oh, and if you could do some PR work on her behalf with her Dad, that would be great too.

Director, please do not be taken in by any of the things she is saying.

There are two people in this who matter to you. Your son, and you. Those are the people you need to be looking out for. Your wife fired you from any responsibilities for her well-being when she took up with her OM. Do not let her start controlling things again, because she does not have your best interests at heart.

None of what I have written means you should fight her on principle, or fight for the sake of it. That would be stupid. If something suits you and your son, and can be agreed amicably, that's great. However, it is not your job to make your WW's life easier, or to be a peacemaker with her family. She has to take responsibility and make the effort herself.

Please be very careful; she is soft-soaping you and the OM, and painting herself as a poor victim. Alarm bells should be ringing!

Tigersrule77 posted 7/1/2019 13:56 PM

Yes your STBXWW is forced to have her baby daddy in her life, as he is the father and will have some legal custody arrangement. However, that doesn't mean she has to have him in her house, interacting with your son as well. She could, for now, make an argument he is not the father and he would have to sue to establish paternity, if he so chooses. I'm willing to bet he hasn't started paying her child support yet.

I agree with M1965 that it appears she is still trying to manipulate the situation. She needs to grow up and deal with her situation. She created the mess, and now she has to figure out how to dig herself out of it.

director23 posted 7/1/2019 14:51 PM

Has she formally withdrawn her request for primary care???
No she hasn't, and I agree with you; I'm not going to let my guard down and there's no reason to believe that she will go for 50/50 until she signs off on it.

you've had a very close relationship with your FI
True for sure; I've had a few interactions with him recently and its obvious he is struggling greatly with this and feels for me.

she manipulates deliberately
I just have a feeling she truly cannot put herself into another's perspective so in her mind her actions were always in her best interest and she simply shouldn't be held accountable.

I can't imagine you'll be on the market long
She's actually asked me multiple times if i am already seeing someone new; she is very worried that I will move on quickly, which truthfully, I do intend to do but that doesn't mean I'm going fishing immediately.

Narcissistic people have three channels: rage, self-pity and charm
This comment has opened up my eyes beyond doubt. Since this has all started I can easily say she has shown who she truly is, and those three 'channels' are all that i've seen.

Let DS feel your pride in HIM, and let him love the baby.
I can see myself aligning up very well with this approach. I really appreciate your explanation.

or ask for what you want as a fair middle ground
Shes explained to me that because she cannot afford to pay me the equity in the house is the reason that she sought physical care. From a conversation recently, I got the impression that if i want to work to get joint care, that I shouldn't ask for a penny. I just sat there and didn't respond as she continued on and on or about 10 minutes professing her love to me and saying she is sorry and that she hopes one day we'll all be sitting on a patio with our friends like everything was beforehand.


what the 'threat' was
Said she needed diapers and that he went and got some and said he wanted to come in to see his child for a few minutes. I asked her why she didn't make him leave diapers on porch and tell him no; she never had a damn problem telling me no.

It did not have to happen; she made it happen
I don't think she is able to acknowledge this because if she does then it will force her to truly acknowledge that her image of herself is ruined beyond repair and she is solely responsible for the actions she made.

painting herself as a poor victim. Alarm bells should be ringing!
They bells are deafening....simply deafening.

A few more weeks to go.

Marz posted 7/1/2019 15:02 PM

you've had a very close relationship with your FI

True for sure; I've had a few interactions with him recently and its obvious he is struggling greatly with this and feels for me.

Unfortunatley things can never be the same. She is his daughter and most often they will feel no choice but to support her. Which is normal.

I suspect his trouble is how this is going to affect them more so than you. Not to mention the fact your stbx is playing the finance game and will be attempting to get as much from you as she can. Her family will probably want this as well because they don't want to be on the hook either.

Beware!!!!!!

[This message edited by Marz at 10:41 AM, July 5th (Friday)]

ChangeMaker posted 7/5/2019 10:10 AM

Hey Director,

You continue to make your way through this very well.

With regards to the "happy little family in the park" fantasy your cheater put forward... mine had the same notions, and I let her believe they were all going to happen (including Xmas, Easters and Thanksgivings together) until she signed the agreement, then I told her in NO uncertain terms that none of that would happen. I told her right then and there... at the lawyer's office.

I don't think it's a good idea to let your son think that you are a happy little family unit when you are not. They will forever wonder why you two can't just be together (and possibly wonder if it's him). I have told my kids from day one that our family doesn't work like that. All families are a little different, and this is just how our family works - but we are still a family. They've occasionally mentioned us getting back together and I have made it very clear that wouldn't happen, because that's just not how our family works.

My advice is to let her have her time with the child, even if you see them at the park, and insist that you be left with the child for your time. It will probably fall into that rhythm pretty quickly anyway, but some of these cheaters can be pretty delusional.

I was tight with my XFIL too. He's a good man, and we respect each other greatly. But... I had to cut the ties. More collateral damage. You'll do what you think is right, and it probably will be.

Take care.

Bigger posted 7/5/2019 10:32 AM

Director

In the interest of getting a quick and clean solution:
Many people think divorce is the equal 50/50 division of assets and debts. Like if you have two cars she should get one and you keep one. In reality it’s to ensure the equal division of assets and debts: you could keep both cars and she get more equity in the house.
At the end of the day then if we say all your assets minus your debts are 1000 you both want to walk away with the equivalent of 500 each.

So, when she talks about not being able to pay you the equity in the house and assuming you have little interest in keeping it…

MAYBE you would be just as well (or even better off) if she forfeits a claim to your 401. Using some financial math, you could either PV or FV to get the value that’s to your benefit.
MAYBE she get’s more equity but forfeits spousal support? When this is done the total paid up-front is generally lower than the total paid over time. I am DEFINITELY NOT suggesting you give away some of your rights. But it doesn’t take a mathematical genius to calculate that getting 20k more equity paid from the sale of the home could be a worse deal than not having to pay 1k per month in support for 3 years…

I suggested earlier that you use the family-connection and their insistence of no-shame to negotiate a good deal through her dad. It does sound like your soon-to-be ex wife has had a princess-like existence through her parents and would maybe be willing to help pay her way out of this embarrassment.

One thing: The original DNA test was done at OM insistence. Your wife could have ended the affair and had your belief the kid was yours. If OM was a true douche-bag he would have pretended the kid wasn’t his and gone on to greener pastures. But he didn’t… and now he’s (correctly IMHO) involved in his son’s life. [Let’s not forget that already strengthens your legal stance for the correct paternity]. I am fairly certain there is more between OM and WW than you have been led to think. I wouldn’t be surprised if they started a relationship soon. MAYBE that could be her family’s path out of their “shame”…

I really need to emphazise that I don’t agree it’s a path out of shame or makes what happened any better – BUT… you want out. Find the best, quickest and cheapest way out. If you offer them an easy path out they will be willing to concede on other factors that are more important in the long run. Factors like prime custody and time with son.

Jorge posted 7/5/2019 12:44 PM

I just sat there and didn't respond

Nice job here. I'm surprised this tact isn't used more frequently for BS. Don't engage unless one has to and speak minimally when you do. Silence is often more impactful than words, particularly when it comes to the BS.
she continued on and on or about 10 minutes professing her love to me and saying she is sorry and that she hopes one day we'll all be sitting on a patio with our friends like everything was beforehand.

Fantasy still drives her. One day, what she has done will descend upon her. It's reassuring that Dad is of right mind and mom sympathizes respectfully. You could have had a household of locos. You're working this well Director.

director23 posted 7/8/2019 23:09 PM

In the interest of getting a quick and clean solution

Just reading this after having a 2 hour long convo with stbxww, and it truly sums up what just happened. At stbxww request to discuss some things in an attempt to avoid mediation and settle on our own terms; I am essentially left with this question: Do I pay off my portion of her car ($2,400), get no equity from the real estate, and each of our assets remain solely ours in exchange for a 50/50 schedule that I essentially created that includes how holidays are spent.

The benefit of going forward with this is that it truly allows her/her family to make moves on the real estate as soon as possible to remove me from being responsible for anything, and sever my ties financially asap as well.

The other side to it is I would be giving up about $20k in what I could realistically get if this went before a judge.

My thinking is factor in lawyer fees, time, and energy spent/hair lost, and it really isn’t worth it. If i go forward with this situation, the divorce will likely be settled within 2 weeks as our ptc is scheduled soon.

Nice job here
.

Good to hear from you Jorge. Crazy how some things seems to work too well.

farsidejunky posted 7/8/2019 23:28 PM

That really depends on your ability to make up the $20K.

Some people will never see that balance on any account they ever own. In that case, it is worth the fight.

That's not the general impression I get from you, however. If I am right about you, I would probably accept it to just to make sure I got the exact custody agreement I was looking for.

ChangeMaker posted 7/9/2019 08:37 AM

IMHO, the division of assets is totally separate from custody issues.

You will almost certainly get 50/50 custody in court. It's pretty unusual not to these days.

Division of assets? Put a reasonable value on everything, add it all up - divide it down the middle. She believes that you want out more than she does. I'm not so sure. I think she's more eager to get OM in there full-time than she leads on.

Personally, I'd rather give $25K to a lawyer than give $20k to my XWW.

totallydumb posted 7/9/2019 10:50 AM

This depends on your tolerance of the situation.

I was faced with a similar situation regarding the 20K. For me, it was worth the money to have things come to a close.

However, my XSO still managed to drag her feet, and not respond to anything for over a year.

In your case, it sounds like your WW is anxious to have some closure and move on, the 20K may be worth it to you.

66charger posted 7/9/2019 12:49 PM

It depends on what she plans to do with the marital home. If she intends to sell it right away, do not give e up the $20k. If she intends to remain in the home, write a clause in the divorce that stipulates you will receive the present day value ($20k) when the house is sold. Defering the money will allow her to stay in the house while the house appreciates in value. 10 - 15 years from now, she receives the full equity, less your $20k.

Tell her you intend to use the money for your sons higher education. Trust me on this. 15 years from now that $20k will come in handy. This turns the negotiation from your immediate benefit to the needs of your son. This worked for me and my X. The 50/50 split became 90/10 in her favor. It did not matter to me. I would have had to pay the college cost anyway.

[This message edited by 66charger at 1:05 PM, July 9th (Tuesday)]

whattheh posted 7/10/2019 10:18 AM

the division of assets is totally separate from custody issues.
You will almost certainly get 50/50 custody in court. It's pretty unusual not to these days

^^^^ this
I would think given her actions that you would be the one considered by the court to be more eligible for primary custody even. What does your attorney think of her proposal to shaft you financially?

Marz posted 7/10/2019 10:25 AM

Finances matter especially long term.

50/50 custody is the norm now.

Better put your thinking cap on. You don't want any regrets later on.

director23 posted 7/10/2019 10:35 AM

The issue ultimately is this: She simply cannot afford to pay me the equity in the house. If I took her to court and the judge ordered her to pay me the equity, she would 100% sell the house as she simply couldn't qualify for a refinance or new mortgage where the equity I'd be owed is even factored in.

If she could afford to pay me the equity, I'd be owed just under $23k

Since there is zero path for her to be able to complete that, we would sell the house and would have to factor in closing costs. All of our other assets become a wash as my retirement savings equal about everything I would claim as an asset she would be keeping.

*IF* the house sells at what we have been told to list it as, she would ultimately owe me $3,200

My dilemma is if I ask for the equity, she will fight me on it up and until a judge makes a decision on it. When I factor in lawyer fees and court costs, plus the time put in and stress to ultimately receive $3k. its not worth it to me.

She doesn't have a job where she has a lot of upward potential. She is stick making what she makes for likely the next decade.

All i see my two options are is:

1: walk away with the belongings I want and joint custody with the schedule I've essentially created.

2: Fight for equity to most likely find out all I'll receive is $3k, while taking the risk of potentially having to fight for joint custody, and extending the time-frame of finalizing the divorce from 2 week to up to 10 months.

ChamomileTea posted 7/10/2019 14:19 PM

I like 66Charger's idea of deferred equity. I get what you're saying about wrapping things up quickly, and yeah... if you've got a good job and can earn more money than it might be worth it to you to go ahead and settle. Keeping the deferred equity in your back pocket though might make her think twice about future attempts to modify your child support or parenting schedule.

Think of it this way... With this agreement she's making a clean break from you, but because you have a child together and because she's not much of a financial provider, she's still got a hold on you. The break isn't as clean as you might think because she can always go for modification as your income improves. Not sure if there's anything that can be done about that, but you might consider deferring the sale as a matter of potential restitution down the road to offset additional expenses.

It might be worth talking it over with your attorney.


ETA: Confused about this portion of your post regarding your retirement savings:

All of our other assets become a wash as my retirement savings equal about everything I would claim as an asset she would be keeping.

If there's any possibility of her touching even a portion of your future retirement, heck yeah... I'd give up the equity now in order to keep her out of the retirement fund later.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 2:32 PM, July 10th (Wednesday)]

Phoenix1 posted 7/10/2019 15:02 PM

I had to really look at the "big picture" when I was divorcing. My big picture included taking on more of the marital debt (which he racked up behind my back) in order to keep the house with all equity (offset the debt) PLUS get the divorce done quickly through a dissolution (much less legal fees). It was worth it, in the long run, and I would do it exactly the same way if I had a do-over.

Xhole's one requirement was that he be given first right of refusal if I ever sell the house. That was an easy one to agree to because I knew he would never qualify for a mortgage loan, but I made sure to include a clause that stipulated the price would be at the current market price (assuming an increase in valuation). I didn't want him to come back and claim it was for the market price at the time of the divorce.

I also added in a clause that I would refi when I was able to get an interest rate equal to or less than our current rate because he had tanked my credit and I knew that would take time. While I was building my credit back up and the mortgage remained in our joint names, I wanted to make sure he didn't run out and get a loan against the equity so I put another clause in to prevent that (e.g., he will make no claims/loans against the equity while title is jointly held).

I mention this because if, as you say, she is unable to qualify for a refi to buy you out, I am assuming the mortgage is jointly held and will remain so. You need to had clauses to protect yourself. What if she fails to pay the mortgage? Drops the insurance? Goes delinquent on taxes? Gets a HELOC against the equity and uses it up?

If she intends to remain in the home, write a clause in the divorce that stipulates you will receive the present day value ($20k) when the house is sold. Defering the money will allow her to stay in the house while the house appreciates in value. 10 - 15 years from now, she receives the full equity, less your $20k.

This ^^ is a good way to handle the eventual equity payout that makes it enticing to her in the form of future value appreciation that you won't get a piece of. May make her willing to agree because it benefits her in the long term (potentially).

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:03 PM, July 10th (Wednesday)]

HalfTime2017 posted 7/10/2019 16:09 PM

Director, I think its worth using a mediator. That might cost you about $2500, which includes your lawyer being there. I wouldn't just give up on the $23k.

Through a mediator, you might be able to get her to see that no way would the Judge just give her an extra $23k, and that would allow you to not pay off her car, or she or her parents cut you a check for $10k. I'd not fold on that so easily just to finish this up, you're pretty much done with her anyway.

I also wouldnt worry about custody, you'll get 50%. I would kindly remind your WW about her episode regarding harming herself, and that you will ask for more custody. Show her she is the one that has more to lose.

whattheh posted 7/11/2019 07:54 AM

All of our other assets become a wash as my retirement savings equal about everything I would claim as an asset she would be keeping.

In my state only the portion of a 401k and its appreciation during the M is considered a marital asset. Anything prior to M and its accumulation is excluded from consideration for the marital assets 50% split. Is your state the same? (Other cash and assets acquired prior to M are excluded too.)

If you are only expecting 3200 out of the net amount after a house sale maybe you can give her the equity and not pay off her car loan for 2400?

boisesister posted 7/11/2019 08:11 AM

If she wants the house, she needs to get your name off that mortgage because it could totally come back to bite you. You need a clean break. Maybe she could ask her parents to cosign with her so she could qualify to refinance. Either that or it gets sold.

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