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I woke up this morning remembering something that happened awhile ago at work when I was managing a team of people. HR called us in (managers) to deliver "employee motivation" training, which, before I even got there, thought was an unreal waste of time (3 days!). Afterwards I was 100% convinced those days were erased from my life forever, but, now, looking back, I see it differently.

The purpose of this meeting was to teach us how to deliver "non-monetary rewards" to our employees. Once I realized the purpose of the meeting, I realized why the company was sending us to this, if we could do it successfully, it would mean a big impact to the bottom line. Because, effectively, the entire gist of the training was this (put into SI terms), "If you deliver the right ego kibble, you won't have to actually deliver the goods".

There were a bunch of sessions, how to do day to day reinforcement (ego kibbles), how to do employee reviews without raises/promotions (not what is was called, but that was the intent, and the answer was "ego kibbles"), how to improve employee performance (remove ego kibbles/salary). At the time, I kept thinking to myself, this will NEVER work on my employees. And after the training, I'd say, in most cases, I was right. My employees were nearly entirely motivated by money, I lost my 2 best pretty quickly, and then the rest of the team lost motivation and became really difficult to manage. And I really did try all the techniques they gave us "You're highly valuable to the team Jeff", "Wow, Tony, that was a fantastic job", "Everyone on the team, look at what Mark did last week" (large distribution e-mails).

But, none of it worked, because, IMHO, what these guys really wanted was "Jeff, here's 100K in stock options". They wanted/needed ego kibbles that they could spend, not those that evaporated into the ether the moment they are said. And we say this across the company, and within a year or so, were back to monetary rewards as the primary driver for rewarding employees.

Now, looking back on it, I think to myself, why did that fail? Is it because my team was all men and the words didn't matter to them? Is it because a word without a coupled action doesn't mean much?

IDK, but I can tell you, with a group of engineers, the only thing that worked was $$. And now relating all this back to A's, HR was trying to deliver rewards with words (sweet nothings) where all my employees wanted was money (porn star sex). Is that because of the male/female balance at work? Is that "kibble delivery" training much more effective in a female dominated company than a male dominated one?

And, you know, my manager was at the meeting too, and he and I sat down for dinner one evening and were joking around, I said to him "don't even try it" (deliver ego kibble instead of salary) and we both laughed. Because you can tell me "great job RIO" all day, every day; but if you don't couple that with some serious cash (porn star sex), well, then, guess what? I'm going to be pretty sure you're trying to manipulate me and those ego kibbles will mean nothing.

As an interesting thought experiment this morning, I turned the entire training around. What if I told my employees; no matter what you do, I'm not going to say it's good. All I'm going to do is hand out lots and lots of cash to the top performers and less as you go down the chain? You know what? I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have lost anyone and the entire team would have been more motivated to perform. Because ego kibbles aren't actually a thing, "good job Jim" doesn't spend at the store and has 0 actual value. And we all know, in the corporate world, that "good job Jim" can be followed, 2 weeks later with "you're fired". Where, "Here's 100K Jim", yes, can still be followed 2 weeks later with "you're fired", but at least you can actually spend that money. The value of the monetary incentive exists independent of the person who's delivering it, the medium is the message. The value of the "ego kibble" only exists in the mind of the receiver and changes dramatically if, as in the example above, I say good job today, and then fire you 2 weeks from now.

Anyway, kind of random thought for the morning. But there's no denying the value of getting people motivated by "ego kibble" rather than something real. Got my W to have an A. I'm sure saved the company millions of dollars. All by using words to convince people that those words have value independent of actions; the "I love you" from my W's AP to her during the A, then going home to his wife an hour later? Exactly the same as me saying "Jim, your our best employee" and then, at review time, giving him no raise, increased responsibility or role and cutting his vacation time. I guess it works or they wouldn't have taught us how to do it. And maybe it doesn't work for me because I'm too transparent and can't deliver a "believable kibble" when I think what I'm saying is bulls**t. That's entirely possible and perhaps even likely.

This is a great analogy!

My ex and his ap were both gaslighting me, trying to get me to believe there was no sex, only flirting and they weren't seeing each other as much as I thought.

I thought to myself, there's no way that affair lasted as long as it did with no sex. A man's whole goal of cheating on his wife or girlfriend is to get sex! Not constantly flirt and have general conversation. And even the woman generally isn'tgoing to stick around with just words without action(him taking her out and/or sex)

It's so funny because I found the AP's social media and every username had ego in it: first name "MzEgo" last name. Mzegobaddass.

And of course he wasnt going to leave me but he needed to give her enough ego kibble and dick to get what he wanted.

The latest thing I've seen is granting a semi-worthless title to someone but not increasing their pay. They get more duties but no monetary bump. I personally would say fuck your title and show me the money, but some folks eat that stuff up.

To equate that to SI relevant stuff, it's like the love language thing, people value different things or actions. Words of affirmation for some and physical touch for others.

Employee recognition is a valid performance management tool. Telling your employee or coworker or even your boss that you're impressed when they did a good job does wonders for a work environment.

I think this is vastly different from an egokibble which is unearned and often not even true. Not to say there couldn't be or isn't overlap between the two.

The latest thing I've seen is granting a semi-worthless title to someone but not increasing their pay.

Oh yeah, forgot that one, and yes, that was also mentioned (not the same way, of course; a "title change to recognize performance" rather than a semi-worthless title, which was, of course, in fact what it was).

Words of affirmation for some and physical touch for others.

That's exactly the analogy that I was thinking in my head. It's "words of affirmation" vs "salary" in the work example, of course, but it's exactly the same thing. I think it's funny though that my employer was basically trying to teach me how to use words of affirmation as a weapon, exactly how the OM used them in the A. I also find it interesting how ineffective it was for me and am trying to figure out is that because I didn't believe what I was saying (am I a bad liar) or is it because my employees were men who wanted the "physical touch" (money) and saw right through the "words of affirmation" bulls**t they expected us to sell?

Perhaps there's an analogy here too. Words of affirmation don't work well on men (again, from this limited experience) because they are the "sellers" of that kind of intimacy, same way sex doesn't work on women because they are the "sellers" of that kind of intimacy. Words from my employer or from my wife, doesn't matter, without the actions to back them up, don't mean much/anything to me. But money, now that'll get me to cut someone's throat on the battlefield of work real darn effectively.

Now for the totally ridiculous, if I was a hot female boss (and to keep it clean, if all my employees were single men) and I offered up "NSA, kinky affair sex" to "employee of the month"? I can only imagine the behavior that would cause in my employees. I'd probably have to put a metal detector in to keep them from shooting one another over that title and wind up with the most productive department in the history of the company.

Employee recognition is a valid performance management tool. Telling your employee or coworker or even your boss that you're impressed when they did a good job does wonders for a work environment.

In fairness, it must work for some people, otherwise they wouldn't have spent the time/effort to get us to learn it. I'm just not the least bit driven for that at work, if I kept getting "You're doing a great job RIO" without anything else (pay increase, etc), I'd likely quit and would absolutely find that job VERY frustrating. Why do you keep saying one thing "Great job" and doing another (not raising my salary/responsibility). A boss who did that to me would be very frustrating for me, I'd much rather, "Good job, but if you want the next raise, you've got to do better here, here and here". In fact, I'd prefer that 1000X to the first, I'm not here (at work) to make friends, I'm here to make money and the more of that you offer and the better you lay that path out for me, the more motivated I'm going to be to drive after it. The most unmotivated I've ever been at work is where there was "no path up", even when I was getting kibbles by the bucket load, it didn't cause me anything but frustration and annoyance (in fact, I quit that job faster than any other I've ever had).

Even a very difficult goal at that job, I would have at least considered staying; "RIO, if you get your PHD in physics, we'll pay you 2X". Well, that's not easy, AT ALL, but.. I'd know "what it takes" to get to the salary to go up. But "great job" by itself is terribly frustrating and upsetting to me when it's delivered in a vacuum.

Relating it to relationships, I kind of see it like the "friend zone", a place that a lot of guys absolutely despise. Because all you get there are all the words "Wow, RIO, you're such a good catch, any girl would be lucky to have you", without any of the "pay raises" (sex). And I think more guys are like this than not, I've honestly never heard a guy happy about being in the friend zone, they hate it, because they are getting nothing but affirmation without actions that make that "affirmation" real.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 8:08 AM, February 23rd (Saturday)]

Maintain bowls of chocolate covered espresso beans in the common areas. The employees will eventually get hooked on the sugar and caffeine. They won't be able to quit.

I have been in management almost my entire adult career. And you know hat works best? To get to know your employees and discover what motivates them. It’s not actually that different than learning and speaking your spouses love language. I have some employees that are motivated by flexibility and independence, I have others that are motivated by recognition and titles, providing opportunities for growth or education, and sometimes money. Studies actually show at a cerain point productivity is actually decreased by more money. I know that sounds counter intuitive. But it’s overwhelmingly true. Most everyone WANTS more

Money but it rarely motivates them to be more productive.

I found it ironic that I delivered this since I don’t really think people are by and large motivated by more sex. they may want more of it but after a certain amount is provided more doesn’t usually improve the relationship. It only works for the undersexed just like money will motivate the underpaid up until a certain salary threshold.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:14 AM, February 23rd (Saturday)]

Studies actually show at a cerain point productivity is actually decreased by more money.

I'd love to read about this, because, I've seen it first hand and never seen the research behind it. Put another way, once an employee hits "FU money" they become very difficult to motivate anymore. In fact, every person I've know who hit that threshold left the company pretty quickly thereafter. Because the "money chase" was over and, I guess, nobody could figure out a good way to motivate them anymore. I see people who have millions in the bank and always think to myself "what are they doing driving into the office in the morning" because I have no idea what gets them to get in the car and heading to grind it out for a corporate machine for 10 hours a day. Most of them, IMHO, are unhappy at home and use work as an excuse to play golf and fly around the world, which I guess I understand. But an independently wealthy employee? I'm not sure I'd hire them if I knew that because, what can I offer them to get them to hop out of bed at 11PM and drive to the airport to get on a plane to deal with a client emergency?

Anyway, that was a bit of an aside, yes, I've seen that effect first hand, and I think we successfully combated it at work. The problem is a "high salary" with low variable comp. What we do is "moderate salary" (livable but not crazy) with massive upside for performance (like 10X salary for blockbuster over performance). And that model seems to be pretty common in the "big money" fields (finance and sales being the easiest examples). I've found that works really well, if they know that they'll make 500K for good, or 600K for great, well.. Not going to get a lot of great. But 100K for good, 1M for great? Get a LOT more great using a salary structure like that (which, again, is what nearly every Wall St. firm has adopted, you have guys in the same role, one driving a Honda, one driving a Ferrari, the difference between "good enough to keep" and "great".

I have some employees that are motivated by flexibility and independence, I have others that are motivated by recognition and titles, providing opportunities for growth or education, and sometimes money.

Nothing will give you more flexibility or independence than becoming wealthy. You want a great tile? How about "retired at 35". You can get all the education you want with enough money in the bank and time to use it after you retire. All of those things, while I agree, do motivate employees, I think are "meta-motivators" for what they really want, money, so that they can buy the things that they want (including all the things that they think are motivating them at work). I know you're right, I just think that I work with a lot of people who've reduced it to the most "pure" goal of work.

And yes, I know some people do love their work, so they are outliers for sure. I'd say that very, very few people I know at work (my career is notorious for the effort required, the cut throat nature, the constant turmoil, etc) are doing it because this work fulfills them. They might like it (I do), but if I didn't have to do it tomorrow, I, and I suspect most I know, would happily never do it again. The goal is money, how much can you make and how fast can you make it. At least that seems to be the behavior that I exhibited and see in others.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 8:34 AM, February 23rd (Saturday)]

Yup, a lot of training exemplifies and tries to institutionalize stupidity. A lot of people made a lot of money selling training programs that hurt the companies they said they helped.

But for people who crave external validation, no reward is enough. That's why, as hikingout says, the better managers motivate people the way they want to be motivated - money, time off, a hot project, praise, big expense account, a bonus....

[This message edited by sisoon at 9:05 AM, February 23rd (Saturday)]

A client of mine, very successful, has told me many times that people will work very hard if they feel appreciated.

A client of mine, very successful, has told me many times that people will work very hard if they feel appreciated.

This I have no doubt of at all. I know it's true for me, but the way I feel appreciation does NOT come in "good job RIO" at all. It comes in a pay check/raise/bonus/options/etc. If you're telling me "you're a great employee" and keeping my salary static, reducing my bonus, etc, well, you can say it all you want, your actions are sending me a VERY different message. And that's what this training was all about, trying to substitute one type of "affirmation" for another (words instead of money, in this case).

I guess, putting in into relationship terms, it's like trying to convince me that my wife saying "I love you" is more valuable than the crazy porn star sex the AP got. Not gonna happen. Because, to me, "I love you" doesn't mean a lot, especially when coupled with her actions during the A (when she was still saying "I love you"). Just like "great job" without a pay change doesn't mean anything to me. If you really thought that (or my favorite, "you're irreplaceable") well, break out the checkbook and start writing zeros until your hand hurts. Because that's where my appreciation comes from (and also, I'd say, the employees who worked under me, which, granted, were all men, but motivating them with "good job" was near impossible in my experience). In fact, I'd go so far as to say, "good job" without pay raise (which is a proxy, it doesn't mean immediate pay raise, that's ridiculous, but it does mean the promise of more pay/responsibility/perks/freedom/etc) is about as "non-validating" as it gets because it's sending mixed message. You can't say "Your irreplaceable" and then pay me 10 bucks an hour for the work that I do. That tells me I am VERY replaceable, so much so, in fact, that you're not willing to pay me anything near what I'm worth to other employers.

This whole thread is really what it boils down to often what motivates people is whatever the perceive they have a deficit of. Flexibility in schedule usually appeals to people with youngish families. Education and promotion possibilities usually work worth young, hungry newer to the career people.

And often I find employees think they know what motivates them but they are actually incorrect about what it is. Most people think money.

And I think this is where we as a board have trouble differentiating motivations. We assume our motivations are the same so we color it through our own lens. We also seem to classify who kibbles as words. Ego kibbles is usually some sort of validation. It could be sexual validation. It could be words of affirmation. When I think about mine I was lonely (by my own hand and design). Kibbles to me would maybe look more like quality time. And I did consume hours upon hours of AP’s time. It’s validation that I was worth being around and spending time with. I don’t think it ever hit me before that way. There was other ones - feeling desirable but in many ways that really just dovetailed into being worth being around.

Bottom line is we are most effective in any situation by understanding what the other person needs. What they find valuable. And often it’s whatever they think they don’t have and likely because they overlook having it or forget to appreciate what they have. If you know that it is very effective. And that’s unique to the person because it’s unique to the perceived deficit. It’s universal to marriage, work, affairs, etc. very interesting thread it provoked a lot of thought.

Praises, empty titles will not motivate me. I work

for the money. No money no food, no house, no car,

no cash to date, no as in nothing.

It is nice to be complimented. Words alone is like

eating a bowl of soup that is just hot water and salt.

More money, more soup, better soup, any kind of soup

that I want.

Yes money can reach a point were it will not provide

additional motivation.

Do you the reason why?

When making $20,000 a year a $10 raise an hour

makes a big difference.

By the time one is making $100,000 a year $10 an

hour raise is not going to improve one's living

that much.

You know, I think Hiking helped me with this. To me, an "ego kibble" is always words. Because I see an "ego kibble" as something that isn't real, it's something designed to motivate a person to do something that's not necessarily in their best interest. A classic example, "John you are the most dedicated employee here, do you mind working OT this weekend for Jeff". Pure ego kibble. But, if that is put differently "John, if you work this weekend for Jeff, I'll promote you on Monday and it'll be a 10/hr raise". That's not an ego kibble to me anymore (this is MY definition, NOT the generally accepted version). That's simply a tit/tat arrangement, it might make John feel good, but, that's really inconsequential because, even if he doesn't feel good, he's still getting that raise if he does the work.

That's why I have a very hard time seeing actual sex/sexual activity as an "ego kibble". Because it's not designed to inflate an ego, it's the goal unto itself. It's not to motivate action (as "I love you like air, so much more than my H/W" is), it IS the action. It's the raise, not the promise of the raise.

An ego kibble to me is fake. That's why I have trouble associating it with sex or a raise because those actions are, in my eyes anyway, not fake and therefore, not a kibble, they are a real thing. You can touch them, spend them, as I said before, they are a good without any context necessary at all, any belief or feelings toward the person who delivers the kibble (I can hate my boss and still be pretty darn happy with a big raise). They just are a "good". Where a compliment without associate action seems very hollow, fake, and designed to do the opposite of a raise or sex, it's like promising something but not delivering it.

Even after reading this thread and seeing the different viewpoints on it, I'd say that most of the kibbles described by other posters, I would hate to get. The "good job" pat on the head makes me feel like a tool and I'm being used. The "your so handsome" from my W then later "I don't want to have sex" feels like a disconnect and like the first was said to manipulate and the 2nd her real feelings. The "your so valuable to the company" and then "no raises this year"; feels entirely like the first was said to cushion the blow of the next. Put more generally, the words without actions are, in a lot of ways, worse than not saying the words at all. I don't want to hear how handsome I am, how smart I am, how valuable I am in the company.. I want you to SHOW me that's how you feel with sex/love/money/promotions/perks/etc. If you never said it, but had me on a private jet for all business travel from here on out, I'd be FAR happier than hearing it every day for the rest of my life. The actions define the feeling, not the words for me.

Ahhh and what you describe is in fact an ego kibble, it just has a tangible attached.

You said basically if she does more sexually with you it means she loves you more. The loves you more is a kibble.

I don’t think time is tangible but he gave me a lot of time and attention. I was very motivated by that because I thought it showed that I was worth that to him.

This is where the trading all comes in. And often it’s for the commodity that you feel is missing. Usually that’s because you perceive it that way. And because you haven’t communicated or negotiated it differently.

People are motivated differently that’s just a fact. And the work example is plenty. I know with some employees you have to watch because their motivation needs will change over long term. This is why understanding your own needs and communitaingbthem is important and needs re-evaluated over time.

I have thought about this off and on today and I want to be more clear:

Ego kibble = validation

Sexual validation for Rio= if she does more sexually, more enthusiastically, she loves and desire you more.

Other forms of sexual validation: I can make her/him crazy because I am so good/skilled/desirable/powerful/etc

Other forms of validation - time spent, money spent, words of affirmation = I am intelligent, I am loveable, I am worth it, Etc.

I also think how we need that validation can change. For example, one of my top love languages is physical, probably leaning a little more towards affection than sex. But if he only cuddled me and suddenly stopped having sex with me..... the deficit would make that 100 times more important and I would be so focused on it that it would be a big issue. Why doesn’t he want to do it with me?? (Would not be a reason for an affair, so don’t misconstrue what I am saying because instead of that I would simply need to communicate, negotiate, or tell him it’s a deal breaker)

But that’s not what happened. We still had sex 3 -5 times a weak. So am I looking for more of that? No. But we spent literally no time together unless it was sleeping, working or having said sex. So where is my validation lacking? You guessed it quality time. Again, this should have been dealt with differently. This is not an excuse for affair it just tells you people are motivated by what they perceive not to have.

So if you are being paid really well but no one ever says good job or you have to work 80 hours a week... you may seek other validation of your work.

Everyone needs validation (ego kibbles) to some degree. Their entire self worth should not hinge on it. What type can differ (in relationships, work or otherwise), and what you value may not be important to me. When we were young and married my husband was the bread winner. We had the money we needed. I needed training and education. That was what motivated me. So you can’t discount WHY someone is motivated differently than you are.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:53 PM, February 23rd (Saturday)]

A client of mine, very successful, has told me many times that people will work very hard if they feel appreciated.

Personal satisfaction is important too.

I work for an abusive boss. Verbally abusive. Rants and raves whenever. He cannot “ praise” me and have it mean anything. I know I do a good job. That’s all I need.

His verbal tirades negate anything he can say or do as a business owner or leader. He cannot “motivate” people - he can only pay them. There is no incentive - money or reward - to do better.

And that is the same for the marriage after an Affair. It takes a lot of hard work to get past the damage and trauma that infidelity causes. It can be done - but in some cases there is no hope or going back.

The Betrayed spouse chooses to move on unfortunately. The damage is done.

Different work environments, different realities... it’s hard to generalize.

I work in the hi tech field. Sometimes the business goes well, sometimes not. The goal of a business is to make as much profit as possible and therefore pay employees as little as possible while keeping them. That will mean trying to motivate them with words. We call this “drinking the cool aid”.

Over the years, I learnt to ignore whatever is said, and only consider actions. Monday, I can get great praise and Tuesday, the company can layoff 50% of the employees. I was once laid off while vacationing “because the company didn’t do well”. The reality was that they got bought 2 months later and didn’t want to pay the stock options.

In the SI world, it’s watch what the WS do, not what the WS say. Words are meaningless.

Over the years, I learnt to ignore whatever is said, and only consider actions. Monday, I can get great praise and Tuesday, the company can layoff 50% of the employees. I was once laid off while vacationing “because the company didn’t do well”. The reality was that they got bought 2 months later and didn’t want to pay the stock options.

We must work for the same employer. And perhaps that was more what I was getting at with my post about the training. It was really teaching us the same thing that a lot of AP's do, "say anything" to keep the "machine" (company or A) running. Doesn't matter if you believe it or not, so long as you say it. And words are effectively free for the business and the AP, so if you can motivate (manipulate) people with words, it's very valuable both for your company (reduced salaries) and for an AP (reduced time before sex).

I guess it comes down to a trade. In business, most of my employees want to trade work for money. This training was to try to get us to motivate them without money, but with words instead. So we were trying to get them to trade work for words. A silly trade, in my book, but a trade that must work or else there'd be no point to trying to get us to learn it.

Before my W's A, I thought the "A trade" was similarly simple. It's just trading sex for sex, you have sex with me, I have sex with you, we're both happy. It's why I was so blind to the possibility of my W's A because she didn't want more sex, and didn't seem to particularly enjoy trading her sex for anything. But after 100's of people beating it into my head, I can see now that's not the typical trade, it's more often sex for words. And I think this is equally ridiculous, words motivated by an ulterior motive (reduce salary or sex) have no meaning at all to me, and I do think that many people who make this trade, looking back, regret it because they used their work or sex to "buy" something that has no lasting value. If my employer pays me 10/hr but gives me non-stop praise and I spend 30 years working there, I'm going to be very poor when the praise stops. If my employer pays me 100/hr but never praises me, I'm going to quite wealthy 30 years later. The wealth is a lasting asset, the words are not (at least not for me, and I think that's nearly always the case in an A, at least where the WS regrets it).

We call this “drinking the cool aid”.

That's what we call it to. "We need so-so to drink the cool aid" would mean that they aren't in the "fold" of the company. What it really means though, in a very obtuse way is "this person likely needs to be fired or promoted to management, because they can see through the game and cannot be motivated with anything other than money". This was the thing that I was tasked to do coming out of that training, RIO, get your employees to drink cool aid until they forget that there are no raises this year. Ummm... That's not me, if someone tried that with me, I would be so angry when I saw through it it would likely drive me to quit. What I'd far prefer is a boss who says "Things are going well, I think we're going to need layoffs and you should be ready for it", no cool aid, respect me as a person and tell me "what's up" so that I can make informed decisions. Just like I'd respect my W's AP a whole lot more if he said "Wanna f**k" instead of what he did say (first off, he wouldn't be her AP, because that would not have worked, but also, he would have been straight forward and clear with his intentions allowing her to make a decision on what she wanted, not pull the bait/switch like he, and many other AP's do).

Over the years, I learnt to ignore whatever is said, and only consider actions. Monday, I can get great praise and Tuesday, the company can layoff 50% of the employees. I was once laid off while vacationing “because the company didn’t do well”. The reality was that they got bought 2 months later and didn’t want to pay the stock options.

Exactly. The words are simply meaningless in the business world, at least in my experience. "Your doing great" can be coupled with a layoff 2 days later. However, "here's 100K in stock options", well, that's NEVER been something that I've seen happen with a layoff 2 days later. That means "We (the company) really value your work and here's how we show it". The "great job" is much more just something you say to keep the machine working. Kind of how "I love you" is something that AP's often say to keep that horrible machine running where "I just filed for D and got an apartment and would like you to move in" would be the equivalent to "here's 100K in options".

People lie. AP's often lie about everything and anything. So do businesses. If you don't internalize and understand these things and only look at the words, you're going to spend your life unable to see the forest through the trees. And that's sad to me, both for employees toiling away in jobs "for kibbles" (non-financial) and for people having A's "for love" (or basically anything other than sex which they are not going to get from a typical A).

[This message edited by Rideitout at 8:11 AM, February 24th (Sunday)]

I don’t know if you will ever believe the concept that for some men the ego kibbles that come from sexual validation are as important if not sometimes moreso than the sex itself.

If you look at those kibbles the too come from a faked place often in an affair. You seethe sex as real and it is, but you believe (and I think correctly so) that the sex is more important to you than the kibbles.

My husband is really never interested in sex unless I am into it. If so am dialing it in he really would just rather wait until a better time. Some of that is increasing the likelihood of better sex. But I think it’s also that he wants to feel like he provided me with something. He wants to feel that I desire him and he can drive me crazy, he wants to hear me, especially at the end day “wow”. So the tangible of the sex is less important to him than how he satisfies me. He gets validation from it. Validation and ego kibbles are the same.

So when you define it that way, the ego kibbles I got from AP quality time, yes probably not genuine. He did what he needed to do. The words your wife got, maybe some genuine and some not but probably all with a goal in mind of giving that validation those kibbles. But for most me. In an affair I don’t think they are any different than my husband in they want to feel desired they want that emotional high of “being the man”. Without it the sex has no value. And I know you already know a lot of the enthusiasm isnlikely faked but to you the guy is still getting what he wanted because he got the validation that he curled her toes. But the validation trade is really the same. It all might be insincere, , she got insincere words, and he got insincere sex. I know your position on that no need to explain it again. In my case I got sexual validation that I was still desirable, that I was wirth spending time with, and some words- some I believed some I didn’t. So those were my ego kibbles. The AP in my situation got to feel like “he still has it” and I could write paragraphs as to why I know that was his thing.

The difference is you value what he got and not what the women got. But I know that’s where your loss is and that is trauma that you can’t talk yourself out of. If you didn’t value what he got, you wouldn’t feel that pain. I guess the question is (and I ask this because you seem to want to stay with your wife and you also want to feel better and less tortured by this) What can you do to begin to heal it? EMDR therapy? Communication with your wife? You seem happy with your wife’s progress, but this trauma is so deep and wide that this is either going to just be a dealbreaker for you (perfectly fine if it is) or you are just going to suffer in silence to the point you two won’t be able to fully reconnect because you can’t be authentic enough with her to do so. It’s just hard to watch you cling to your argument at all costs because I think you are torturing yourself with some of it.