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Hi all,

Just wanted to post an update to my position from last year. I can't recall when I posted, but I remember DDay being somewhere halfway through last year.

It took from June '18 to Feb '19 to really experience true remorse, a deep remorse that my affair ever happened in the first place, and really wishing it never happened at all. That I'd never met AP. I am really surprised that it took as long. I wanted to feel remorseful but it didn't come for this long. I became so angry at the mere notion of AP out of nowhere. I recall at times before this reminiscing of our time together, even missing him, longing to reach out to him. But with each recollection, I remembered just how much he used me, how I was essentially nothing to him, and yet I put him on a pedestal all for nothing.

All along it should have been my H that I idolized and adored. Yes our marriage was rocky for the first 5 years. But I didn't truly admire him until recently when the fog really lifted. He did a complete 180, said he understood what led us there, and was willing to give our marriage another chance because he loves me and is deeply in love with me, made a vow and didn't ever want to break it. But that I had to promise to never ever do that again and always be honest. I will never break his trust again.

But why did it take so long to experience true remorse? For the fog to lift? For the daily thoughts of AP to finally leave me? For everything to cease reminding me of him? And that anger? I don't understand it at all.

Quinney, thank you for posting.

I am out of the fog but not feeling remorse reflexively. I can work up to it if I work hard at thinking about what AP was really thinking, what BH is/was feeling, etc. It takes work and attention.

Other things are going OK - being open and honest with BH, not being defensive when he is sad or hurt, understanding how and why he is hurt and how to take care of him, thinking about whys etc.

But I find my own feelings so frustrating! I feel terrible for him and want to help when his sadness and pain is in front of me, but not the rest of the time.

Did you do anything in particular that helped? Was it just time? Kinds of interactions with your BH? I'd really like to hear more.

I'm looking up your profile/old posts but if you have a summary, please share it.

So I just read your June 2018 post and the responses, and got a pretty dramatic answer. Not wanting to t/j I put it over in the thread I'm keeping. But thank you for posting, it was helpful.

Hi Quinney,

I have asked myself similar questions - this was my experience as well. .

First, when we go in to have an affair, it's often to fill the void within ourselves. We escape ourselves and numb our emotions during that time, and while we are doing this the void gets so much bigger. So, on DDAY we are still sitting in the same issues from prior to the affair with new ones to boot. While we did it to ourselves, it's a deep hole to crawl out of. We want to continue to numb ourselves, and letting go of that fantasy is hard because we still want to use it to feel better. We have re-written the marital history, we've essentially brainwashed ourselves in many cases.

You can't get to regret, shame, or guilt when you are still romanticizing and minimizing what you have done. But, you can't hold on to the fantasy by not romanticizing and minimizing. So, you fight for the good feelings and you go over them in your head, often obsessively. While at the same time you know logically that you should feel badly about what you did, you should want something healthier, and for me I honestly wanted to stop thinking about the AP. I logically did not want him - I wanted the way the affair made me feel instead of these post affair shitty feelings. It's all happening at once and it's crazy making. To not want the feelings the affair gave you a certain amount of healing has to happen, and that's why IC, figuring out your whys, figuring out how to self sooth, etc...all that is important.

People who have affairs are screwed up in some ways, but people who come out of affairs are often worse off than when they went in.

I believe the first indication I had that I was moving in the right direction was guilt, shame, and regret. Those are emotions we have about what we've done. (That actually sounds to me more what you are describing than remorse - more on that in a minute) Those are about us and only us. I think you have to heal some of that and accept what you have done, why you have done it, and what must change before you can ever get to a place of remorse.

Remorse is about other people that you hurt. It's deep empathy and understanding of all the thousands of cuts that you made in betraying them. Knowing and owning the nuances that hurt them the most.

You can't get to that if you can't first realize how bad what you did was (that's why guilt, shame, regret are the first things to hit)

Remorse is what allows us to really help our spouse. When we understand the damage, we stop doing more damage. When we understand what is needed we do everything possible. It's strange because once you stop wallowing in the guilt, own your stuff, heal some of the pain you caused yourself, you have the right headspace to then go on and really do what needs doing.

I will say I limped along with the healing parts in an okay way with my H. I read the books, I did what they said. I read here in the BS forums and learned what they said they needed. I knew that I wanted my marriage, so I tried to make the actions. I think what was missing was really understanding HIM. But, I couldn't face his pain entirely until my mind went through all those processes.

In an EA/PA situation, where the WS is very invested in the fantasy la-la land that this is just the process that happens. We want to do better, we know we should do better. But we unpacking all the pain (old and new) after we thought we found the cure to the old pain (self medicating ourselves with love addiction) - it somehow renders us ---clueless? Irrational? Emotionally stunted? I don't know, but I look back at that time and I think what the hell was I thinking?

Someone posted an article over in general a while back called "Romantic Infidelity" by Dr. Frank Pittman, google it. The reason I keep referencing this article is I read it and it's an accurate depiction of my situation. The fact this is so common that a Dr. could tell you exactly what happens tells me that the deep psychological effects of a EA/PA affair are almost universal. When the article was posted so many BS's remarked at how accurate it was about their own spouse.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:10 AM, March 6th (Wednesday)]

But why did it take so long to experience true remorse? For the fog to lift? For the daily thoughts of AP to finally leave me? For everything to cease reminding me of him? And that anger? I don't understand it at all.

IMO, this is why-

Yes our marriage was rocky for the first 5 years. But I didn't truly admire him until recently when the fog really lifted. He did a complete 180, said he understood what led us there, and was willing to give our marriage another chance because he loves me and is deeply in love with me, made a vow and didn't ever want to break it.

because you were given the go ahead and freedom to blame it on your marriage and apparently your husband since you mention the 180. If he had not done a 180 to earn you, then what? If he had not taken some of the blame for you cheating on himself then what? It is hard to feel remorseful for something you don't feel was entirely your fault. Just saying.

because you were given the go ahead and freedom to blame it on your marriage and apparently your husband since you mention the 180. If he had not done a 180 to earn you, then what? If he had not taken some of the blame for you cheating on himself then what? It is hard to feel remorseful for something you don't feel was entirely your fault. Just saying.

Zug - that's an interesting point. I hadn't thought about it from that perspective. But, it brings up some thoughts:

A LOT of us rewrite the marital history, and I did mention that because it took me a while to untangle that to realize I had even done it. To begin to see my marriage more the way I did pre-A.

Under this suggestion you are making - I guess that would be true for most waywards, because even if you didn't have a rocky past ( we didn't) you have rewritten it to the place you have placed a lot less value on the marriage than what should have been there.

So, to put this into a different context: we often don't have proper value on the marriage during the affair - so does it really matter whether there was a rocky past or not? I am thinking probably not.

And, that aligns with my beliefs that you don't cheat because of the spouse or the marriage, you cheat because you decided to. Did she use those resentments to fuel entitlement so she could do what she wanted in having the the affair? Probably -but so did I and mine weren't really based on anything real.

It's an interesting perspective to look at it though the way you are stating it. I would probably add it to the list of reasons that it was hard to get to guilt, regret and shame for me at first:

-I was still in the fantasy because I wanted to keep having the feelings the affair gave me. I continued to justify that "I had met the love of my life"

-I had devalued my marriage to the point that I felt justified (new zug point)

-I had been numbing my feelings so pulling them back out took some time.

-I felt sorry for myself

Once I could get back from the skewed thinking, then I was able to feel badly about what I did (shame, guilt, remorse) and really examine why I would do something so wrong. At some point in that era I started to take in account more and more what I did to my husband.

Someone a while ago brought up that we dehumanize our spouse when we have an affair. I have thought about that a lot since that was brought up, and I have come to think that's true. I would have never associated that word to what we do before that post, but I believe that is correct. I think that also lends itself to not feeling like you did anything wrong.

Zugs pretty much nails it.

It's when we quit blaming this on everything and everyone but ourselves is when I think we get to true remorse. Remorse doesn't happen if we believe the blame lies elsewhere.

So, on DDAY we are still sitting in the same issues from prior to the affair with new ones to boot. While we did it to ourselves, it's a deep hole to crawl out of. We want to continue to numb ourselves, and letting go of that fantasy is hard because we still want to use it to feel better. We have re-written the marital history, we've essentially brainwashed ourselves in many cases.

This rings really true to me. And I still daily fight off feelings of just wishing everything was better between BH and I. And I still avoid. I know I do. Because I care more about enjoying the good moments we do have and don’t want to “ruin” them by proactively bringing up my betrayals and all the ways I have hurt him. Like he doesn’t feel it if I don’t talk about it? Of course he feels it, every moment of every day.

Why does it take so long? I know for me it has been about not being honest with myself and taking full responsibility for my lies and betrayals and seeing myself for all the terrible things I have done and am capable of doing. Things have started to change more as I have faced myself without hiding behind shame and anxiety. Sure as hell isnt any easier though.

I still sit and think "why is this part taking me so long". But, I also think that we have to make up our minds to try, be present every day. Anyone can make changes if they put their mind to it and keep it on their daily habits.

I think sometimes we just don't have a picture of who that is - visualizing who we want to be can be helpful. Taking steps towards that equally important. I am pretty sure there was a long period I logged in here every day. It probably seems like I still do, but I take small breaks from time to time. I read something daily, even if it was the book I had in my hand before going to sleep. If you dedicate yourself, you will be surprised at the progress you can make in a short time.

I do think for some of us it takes our spouse really putting their foot down, we sometimes need to feel that imminent loss to be reminded of the reality of what it is we are really going to lose. Zug mentioned that in his post, and I think that's true.

What you say sun, about trying to "have a good day" that's really what got me here in some ways in the first place. I wouldn't engage in conflict "because I wanted us to have a good day", I didn't want to say how depressed or how isolated I felt "because I wanted to have a good day together"....We overvalue the positive feelings, when in reality we connect with our spouse most in those times when we open up about all the other stuff. Things are positive? Great! But, when we talk about our internal worlds, our struggles, our dreams, and our desires, and we really share ourselves...that's where the good stuff is. So, stop thinking of it in terms of talking about it makes for a bad day. Talking about it sometimes has a silver lining in bringing some bonding, furthering our understanding of each other. Yes, it sucks that it's about the affair, but I have to say that once you learn to engage and discuss it, it gets so much easier. And, while sometimes it ends badly, a lot of times I find it brings us closer. Stop fearing it, and just change the frame you have around it.

I don't like it when WS like Zug on here nitpick certain phrases like "the 180 - if he had not done the 180 to earn you..." and warp them to sound like something else! It is not as cut and dry as your redundant summary makes it out to be, and others think you "nailed it", but in reality it is VERY much the opposite. Perhaps your own feelings about your A and healing process are being projected onto me, which is quite sad, but good luck to you and yours as I absolutely refuse to engage in that kind of dialogue.

I merely came on here to ask WHY it takes so long for true remorse. Got the answers I needed (Zug's obviously wasn't it), which led to some much-needed deliberation. And although before editing my post I laid it all out, I feel: why should I - I don't have to explain it all when I know the details, that I am actually extremely remorseful, and my BS and I have healed together, come to terms with causal elements, but ultimately I DON'T BLAME him for my A or the causal elements that back then I thought led to my decision. The only real factor was just that, MY decision, and I have made peace with that and my BS.

Pippin: glad to hear from you and I will share some things with you.

My other post last year...obviously I was in the midst of DDay blow up, I wasn't able to be objective, I thought I knew it all, but I didn't. I never thought I had to feel remorse to move on, let alone feel guilty. I felt that I was right in having the A. Of course I see how that was to ever even think such a thing, let alone for me to decide I should do it.

For me the remorse, after thinking long and hard about it, comes down to a combination of things.

Talking openly and honestly. BS swore a lot at me, and I was very patient with him. Open, ready to talk, never dismissive, encouraging him and reminding him that there will come a time when this is healed, but I would be there for him however long it took, and no matter how many times we needed to hash it out. He fell into rug sweeping at one point, but I told him we needed to address it to heal properly. We only discussed the A when he brought it up.

Making a conscious effort to spend time together was a huge thing for us, and quality time, too. Being kind to one another. This helped me to fall back in love with him, leading to regret/shame/guilt, leading me to confront the triggers that I kept having, leading me to true remorse.

Confronting the AP triggers: IMPORTANT!

At first, it was by habit that I would be triggered, so the romanticising of the A was only all too natural for me, like HikingOut mentioned! - absolutely right. This got me thinking where did that come from...and this leads into why remorse took so long for me. Unfortunately I had associated MANY places, songs, things, activities with AP which triggered the feelings in me every time I did/saw these. My triggers used to occur very often, like a knee-jerk reaction. But then over time I started reacting to the trigger by accepting it instead of romanticising and suppressing it. I started to become very angry at myself, then turned that anger towards the memory, romanticisation of AP and its association. Then my brain began to rewire and associate these with different thoughts and feelings that I conjured instead, much like the way it used to be before AP.

I'm deleting my other posts, and this is my final one here. Thanks to those who gave me some good insight. Good luck all with your healing. But I believe I've done mine now, just wanted to know why on earth it takes a long time to move on. Glad to know I'm not alone in that.

[This message edited by Quinney at 8:34 PM, March 6th (Wednesday)]

There were lots of things I didn't like hearing when they were pointed out to me when I got my ass here 5 years ago.

Why did remorse take so long? Again, I will repeat that there is no remorse as long as we hold on to some notion that we are not responsible. As long as I can try to blame anyone (BS, AP) and anything (Relationship issues, lack of sex, lack of attention) it blocks remorse.

Something inside you was stopping it.

You asked a question, you got answers. Usually when we don't like an answer is that it hits close to home. Good luck on your journey

Hikingout, thank you for thoughts, I don’t want to threadjack and actually need to work on this a lot. I will post over on my other thread I have going about this, as I know I need to talk it out and work it out.

It is hard to feel remorseful for something you don't feel was entirely your fault. Just saying.

So much truth in that one statement. And I'm not surprised so much defensiveness was the result. Owning our decisions and behaviors is a painful and humbling experience. It is so much easier to blame someone else, and then presume ourselves to be the victim.

I'll add to this, for the benefit of future readers, that whatever problems that may have existed in the relationship prior to the affair, are valid topics of discussion that should probably be addressed at some point in the future. But we all have to take ownership of ourselves and the things we did wrong. An affair is not about what your spouse did wrong. It is about what YOU did wrong. Your spouse owns their own bad behavior. You own yours.

I have not yet heard of a situation where a spouse put a gun to the other spouse's head and said, "Cheat on me and lie to me about it right now, or I'll shoot!". Instead, in all cases, it is a decision made in isolation, in secret, and accompanied by lies and deception, always to the detriment of the other spouse as well others, such as family members, communities and workplaces. It always results in removing choice from the betrayed spouse. It is always a unilateral decision. There is never a situation in which there are no other options other than cheating. The person who cheats has made the personal decision to allow themselves to behave in ways that they themselves would never find decent or acceptable in others. It is a marriage of selfishness, entitlement and a lack of self-respect and boundaries. You don't cheat on your spouse... you cheat on yourself. Your spouse didn't destroy the relationship, you did.

I know so many people think that sounds so harsh, and it's really not, not at all. In fact, it was a lesson I wish I had learned much, much earlier on in life, and certainly in reconciliation.

Yes, it's pretty much impossible to feel remorse for something you don't feel personally responsible for.

Quinney, I wish you wouldn't have removed your posts and I hope you return. Although the old posts are embarrassing (I have a string of embarrassing posts), they can be really helpful to other people. (Plus it's anonymous! *We don't know who you are in real life*). I guess it's gone for good, but maybe in the future you'll leave "in progress" stuff up for future readers.

I think you came to mention you are pregnant? And happy with where you are with your BH? If so, the response that you should not be as happy as you think probably felt terrible. And looking at your former self in that June thread didn't feel good either, when you were expecting to feel good.

It's likely you'll feel set back at some point, and your problems will always be inflected with the A, so you get to be a member of this "club" any time you want. The applause is sometimes rather thin around here, so you know now not to expect it, but you can definitely get useful help, if you come back.

And thanks for your comments. I find other people's perspectives so helpful.

I will echo Pippin. I hope you will stay around. I know sometimes it feels like some folks are criticizing, but sometimes those things that bother us make us realize new things. It's tough.

I also just wanted to clarify - when I talked about rewriting history, I wasn't talking about you. I believe it when you say things were rocky. I was really just pointing out to zugwang that whether it was rocky (your situation) or just a perception (my situation), both things are usually present in infidelity.

I do think for some of us it takes our spouse really putting their foot down, we sometimes need to feel that imminent loss to be reminded of the reality of what it is we are really going to lose. Zug mentioned that in his post, and I think that's true.

Absolutely. I know it made some difference to me...and I mean only some. In the end the only thing that really makes for remorse and change is wanting it for yourself. Yeah, sounds selfish. Guess it is a good self focus. For change at least. When you begin to change. Own it. Then you hit remorse because you have begun to become less selfish and entitled. Not just for some outcome change (hence we say let go of the outcome) or if you are doing it to earn some reward (keeping the marriage or spouse). But, you truly want to change because you can't stand to sit in your own skin. I have been here long enough to know and see that it doesn't seem to last when the change isn't driven for yourself. Till you are really motivated to do it for yourself, I think that is when we get to that real deep remorse. Though being here for the years I have been here reading I have seen that many WS take longer to get to remorse when they have more lenient BS. Yes, I guess it would be a generalization. There are always exceptions. I just remember a couple that were here about a year and half ago. Male BS and the female WS, turns out they were in false R and he posted that he was too understanding and nice. About 4 months after she posted in wayward that BS were too mean to their WS and that their anger didn't help when they said they wanted to R. That her husband's compassion is what got them through. Yet, it really didn't. It allowed them to rugsweep. Neither of them post anymore. Too much drama and there was a ton of "I told you so" going on in general with the husband.

Quinney Sorry you got so offended by a simple POV. I really am not understanding why you are taking it so personally. After all, it was only an idea and you did ask why it took so long. You could have just ignored the comment and moved on- the perspective did help some users to evaluate their own journeys. You could have simply stated, I don't think that was our case. It leaves me wondering why you got so upset and offended that you had to lash out. Like a user stated the forum is

anonymous!

, so why get so bothered by what I thought? It isn't like I said it had to be it. It was simply a thought and observation based on what you typed. Everything is always from someone else's experience and perspective. Sometimes taking a deeper look at to why you would get threatened by a comment from again "anonymous" person might lead you to some new insights and things to work on. At least in our house. We keep digging and discussing till it doesn't hurt anymore. Then we know it is clean.