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I’m currently reading through What Makes Love Last by John Gottman and I’m really conflicted about some of the chapters. In particular chapters 3-5. I didn’t mean for it to happen(why cheaters cheat), men porn and sex drives, and ten other ways to betray a lover. Has anyone else read this and if so can you offer some insight? I love gottman for the very specific data that’s collected and presented in a scientific way. The stuff on game theory is fascinating.

Gottman's 4 horsemen spoke to what had gone off the rails in my marriage, and allowed my husband to think he could get away with cheating on me. The 4 Horsemen are Criticism, Defensiveness, Contempt and Stonewalling. I haven't read this specific book, but I've been impressed with Gottman's research on behavior.

What specifically, in each of those chapters, has you conflicted? There is a lot of information in those chapters, so what insights are you looking for?

To be more specific, just a couple of quotes.

“Betrayal can be a red flag that calls attention to deficiencies in a relationship that led at least one partner to feel lonely and devalued.” (Chapter 3)This feels like it’s walking a thin line of justification or blaming?

“Masurbating to an image results in the secretion of ioxytocin and vasopressin, hormones linked to attachment. Porn users are in danger of becoming attached to a mere fetish of impersonal sex.

Addiction is not a concern if a couple used porn to enhance their mutual desire and pleasure during lovemaking. Too often, however, porn is viewed solo and becomes a source of betrayal even if the habit doesn’t meet the technical definition of compulsive.”

This hits a really sensitive personal spot for me. I’m curious if others see it as a valid point?

Masurbating to an image results in the secretion of ioxytocin and vasopressin, hormones linked to attachment. Porn users are in danger of becoming attached to a mere fetish of impersonal sex.

Addiction is not a concern if a couple used porn to enhance their mutual desire and pleasure during lovemaking. Too often, however, porn is viewed solo and becomes a source of betrayal even if the habit doesn’t meet the technical definition of compulsive.”

This hits a really sensitive personal spot for me. I’m curious if others see it as a valid point?

My H discovered internet porn and was a regular consumer for the 5 years leading up to dday1. Impersonal sex, objectifying women, playing out porn fantasies in which he was a big stud....sounds much like how my H explained himself and the As he allowed himself. I agree with Gottman here and on most of his other insights on individuals and relationships. It becomes a fix, an escape, unhealthy when used in this solo masturbatory way.

I think Gottman's work has both positive and negative aspects to it - some stuff that is helpful, and some that is not.

I think it's important for us to think critically about the material we read, and it sounds like you are trying to do that.

Was there anything in Chapter 3 that resonated with you? What made sense to you? What didn't?

What specifically in that quote from the porn chapter hit a sensitive spot for you? Do you see validity in what you quoted, and if so, how does that impact you?

No stop sign...so I'm going to chime in a bit...

He isn't wrong. I am reading the same book and I think it's true but has to be taken in context of your personal situation.

There is no 100% simple answer when you are that far down in the weeds. The simple answers are more along the lines of what philosophy guides your life, your morality, and your values. If you can easily define the philosophy of your life in specific terms, the downstream issues (porn) become simple to decide. Figure out the big picture rules and the small picture issues go away.

However...on the book...Porn is bad for your brain. However, lack of sex is bad for your soul. Being married and in a dead bedroom is soul crushingly painful. The rejection of your spouse, while laying in bed next to them, inches away...knowing that they know you are in pain, but doing nothing to save them...that pain is impossible to overstate. That rejection (mostly sexual rejection) is as bad as porn or anything else and it gets glossed over as "you don't own my body/aren't entitled to sex/go jerk off in the shower pervert/my girlfriends only "give" their husband sex on his birthday so you should be happy you get it once a month..."

That's a level of pain and rejection that has to be answered...and men will try to stop that hurt with an outlet. That outlet is likely to be porn. Flat out...you can't keep that pain inside you. It has to come out and get addressed. Porn provides a temporary and destructive way to at least make the pain of rejection stop for a minute. It's wrong...but it works. I think porn is a bad thing overall as it does distort reality and it does create false fantasies that can't be met by real partners...but the rejection of a dead bedroom or similar must be addressed...

Now, for people who have a willing partner...no excuse.

Bottom line...IMO, things would work so much better of both people just put the work in to be each other's person best sex ever. If both partners would simply focus hard on making sure each other is super sexually satisfied...the porn issue would likely go away IMO.

That's just my thought and it may or may not apply to your situation.

We attended one of the science of Love workshops. I too felt conflicted about their view on infidelity. They used those words there - deficiencies. But I chose to frame it as yes there were some, but that I was equally responsible, and in some cases 100 percent responsible for those deficiencies. That would never excuse an affair as the answer to that. I should have and could have communicated, set personal boundaries, suggested counseling, gotten a divorce, or a number of other options. Instead I just built up resentment and a lack of hope for changes in our marriage. So when you frame it that way, you aren’t excusing he affair.

Gottman is a great thing for you and morethanbroken but Inwill point out for newbies that it may not be time to deal with marital deficiencies if you haven’t worked on yourself. Gottman can be a good guide for helping with communication and building your marriage. I thought that disclaimer needed put out there - but I am so glad you have looked into it. I especially think the conflict chapters will be helpful to both of you!!!

Thank you all for the responses and the time you took to offer your opinion. I’m afraid this post/topic has caused too much tension at home and I feel like answering some of the more specific things would only make it worse. No over dramatics, just walking away before things escalate. Sorry for the weirdness. <3

The Gottman book that helped specifically was a different book. Why marriages succeed or fail.

I'll tell you why it helped.

My H and I fought like cats and dogs. All the time. We always did. That book explained there are 3 types of couples who makes it. The type that talks through everything. The type that stuff everything (avoidant) and the type that fights through everything.

I thought since we fought so much we were doomed.not true. All 3 types mak e it. It showed me how to handle conflict.

The other book that helped us was From Anger to Intimacy by Gary Smalley.

I'd highly recommend those. But focus on identifying destructive patterns and learn new ones. Stop navel gazing at past failure. That does no good.

I think Gottman has a lot of good insights, but I also feel that he is overly traditional in some ways, especially when it comes to role-reversal. I know he tries to be gender-neutral in his books, but honestly it still just "feels" like most of his stuff is aimed at WHs and BWs. That can be dangerous if you are a WW and expect that your BH will respond like a BW as described in literature--he won't. I am biased, but I think there tends to be a lot more nuance in WW/BH scenarios than suggested in much of the recovery/self help literature.

I think there are critical differences between BHs and BWs that literature does not adequately address. Over the 10 or so years I've been in this terrible club I think it's gotten better but help for WWs and BHs is still not available in as much depth as traditional WH/BW situations.

Of all the things I've read I'd say Gottman was a close second to the five love languages by Chapman.

His statements are backed up by peer reviewed research and he is more interested at getting into it versus assigning blame. I think a lot of it is open to some interpretation.

The thing about any of the books I've read is that none of them seem to get it 100% correct. I use what seems useful to me to assign my own meaning to things.

It is always assumed that the WS is the one that feels lonely in the relationship. I would offer that usually both people are lonely or feel that one or more of their needs are being met. Combine this with co-dependency and bad boundaries you have a WS that might not have cheated yet, but will cross that line when the opportunity presents itself.

The character deficit stuff (I think that was Gottman, I could be wrong) really hit home for both of us and made sense. It is a term I still use today.

Unbroken78: "The rejection of your spouse, while laying in bed next to them, inches away...knowing that they know you are in pain, but doing nothing to save them...that pain is impossible to overstate. That rejection (mostly sexual rejection) is as bad as porn or anything else and it gets glossed over as "you don't own my body/aren't entitled to sex/go jerk off in the shower pervert/my girlfriends only "give" their husband sex on his birthday so you should be happy you get it once a month...""

I can relate to this so much. It hurt just to read it. As the WS, I sometimes feel like i'm not allowed to express these perspectives. But I just remember sitting in bed next to her for years feeling so worthless. It helps to remember. I'm sort of moving on (divorcing) and finding ways to really dig into my own faults. But this statement, ugh, it hurts, because it's how I had felt for thousands of nights. But, I also know I didn't do enough to communicate this need to her. And, I was so deeply flawed, I depended on sex for my emotional connection with her. Anyway, tough words for me.

As for Gottman, I'll have to read his work. Would it be useful for me? My wife and I are divorcing, so I'm not sure his stuff is more about making it work.

Frank answer...and one that may not popular for SI BSs-

Sexless marriages are a recipe for disaster. Flat out...call it the "fill my love bucket" model from whatever book it was or the "speak my love language"...

You fill a love bucket/speak a love language via sex. Yes, there are other languages like words of affirmation and so on...but those aren't actual love languages. Those are like languages. A language you can speak to a friend, is not a love language that says I LOVE YOU to your wife/husband. The wife/husband language is one that they can ONLY speak to one another and that language is sex. Sex is the one and only language that is unique to each other and only spoken to the husband/wife. All other languages are like languages and are not exclusive to the marriage.

As such...when a husband/wife refuses sex, they are effectively refusing love. They are saying, via actions, "you are not worthy, not good enough, I don't love you, I reject you, I don't want you, you aren't worth the time and effort to have sex with and I don't care enough about you to do the work".

That's what is being said, whether the refusing spouse wants to admit it or not. It gets deflected with a handbook of excuses...kids...tired...mood...headache...whatever but it's still the same. If it were a priority, it would happen. If it's not a priority, every excuse will work.

When a spouse says that to their husband/wife...and that husband or wife goes and finds that love elsewhere...it's wrong...but it is also predictable. Kick somebody enough times and they stop coming near you...reject them enough times and they will seek love and validation elsewhere. The need doesn't go away due to rejection...it gets worse. Eventually, that pain will overcome morality and rules.

Sex is the clearest gauge of how connected people are in a M. It's not 100%...there are sex addicts, people with emotional/mental issues, people with past trauma...but for "normal" people in "normal" relationships...the sex is a clear indicator of where that M is at.

I'm sure some people will disagree...but that's my experience on it and I've never seen anything to make me question it.

YMMV.

Unbroken, I don't disagree with anything you said. A lot of marriages fail or nearly fail because one spouse or the other lets other things get in the way of prioritizing their marriage. Whether it's kids, work, extended family drama, menopause, or what have you, one spouse either pushes sex to the bottom of the priority list or loses their interest in it and fails to recognize that doing so is not acceptable. Sex may not be the most important part of a relationship, but when it's absent it becomes everything to the person being rejected.

To neglect your spouse sexually is to betray your vows and thus your spouse. "To have and to hold" is just as much a part of the deal as "forsaking all others". If you're consistently rejecting your spouse, you're ruining your marriage.

I agree fully.

Sex is like oxygen.

It's not a big deal until you aren't getting it.

I disagree with this

one spouse or the other lets other things get in the way of prioritizing their marriage. Whether it's kids, work, extended family drama, menopause, or what have you, one spouse either pushes sex to the bottom of the priority list or loses their interest in it and fails to recognize that doing so is not acceptable.

It is a dynamic, a dance. It is not one directional. Maybe on the surface it appears that one spouse is rejecting the other (work, kids, tired), but I do believe that once you dig deeper, you will find that the rejection or the perception of rejection has been flowing both ways for a while. That there are deeper things going on with the “rejecting” partner.

To answer the OP, I found Gottman useful to an extent. I seriously struggled with his affair recovery protocol, specifically bc I was/am so traumatized by the A. The trauma has to be dealt with first and he somehow glosses over it. Same with the Emotional Family Therapy.

It is a dynamic, a dance. It is not one directional. Maybe on the surface it appears that one spouse is rejecting the other (work, kids, tired), but I do believe that once you dig deeper, you will find that the rejection or the perception of rejection has been flowing both ways for a while. That there are deeper things going on with the “rejecting” partner.

I agree. And, its what you do with that situation that matters. Communication is truly the key to a successful relationship. Being able to negotiate and compromise based on that communication is also key. When a couple is connected (without an actual ailment) sex typically will flow. There are exceptions to every rule, but often both partners are responsible in some way for lack of sex.

Just gotta chime in that there are plenty of WS who have an A where the sex at home is available. My WH is one of them. I was happy to have sex with WH in the years before his EA turned PA. But, my WH was more interested in drinking to the point where he could not "perform". He was also decidedly NOT interested in hearing about or doing things that I desired in the sex dept. Eventually, I did give up - years after the PA began.

I'm not a fan of Gottman, but (a) I suspect I read him too soon after dday, and (b) MC we saw right after dday was Gottman trained and I guess I still hold a grudge at her trying to work on our communication styles while WH was lying through his teeth (she was basically telling me that I had to trust him w/in a month of dday. Didn't sit well then, doesn't sit well now).

I guess I still hold a grudge at her trying to work on our communication styles while WH was lying through his teeth (she was basically telling me that I had to trust him w/in a month of dday

And this is why I will not yet go to MC. WH appears to like Gottman's style and is eager to work through the quizzes and strategies to improve communication, but I feel highly resentful at this. His EA and subsequent PA was not caused by lack of sex at home (every weekend, as HE chose to lived away through the week), and I never had a problem communicating honestly with him. He, however, did have a problem communicating honestly with me. And now that he's blown up the marriage, I'm expected to work on something I never caused a problem with? I'm struggling with that, tbh.

I have this book on order though, and am hoping it will give him some more insight into what he needs to fix.