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I’m sad to say that my expectation is in two years we will see a post titled “I’m back again, it never ended”

There is a lot of smoke there, but I think there is some fire too. Clearly she still thinks about him regularly and has fond feelings about him despite her logical brain telling her he is "toxic." She is throwing her life away for, "I care deeply for you." Yeah you aren't dealing with a remorseful WS that wants to R. It is one of the cruelest things post dday. Having to watch your WS mourn/pine for the APloss of the AP. The sad part is she probably doesn't even see just how cruel this is. She has justified it as ok in her mind. Her selfishness is still there and lack empathy. This is not remorse. BTW Honesty doesn't have to be cruel. The way you describe her telling you is cruel. Followed by minimization and justifications (e.g. Semantics). It also smacks of disrespect to try an argue you out of the way you feel.

Forcing her to "choose," is not going to work. She likes that way too much. I think the only way you will gain the clarity you seek and need is to remove yourself from the running. Maybe it can work out later, but right now you are taking too many punches to last the rest of the match. This is the time to focus on yourself. Not your M or W. Yourself. You will be in a better position no matter what fate is ahead of you. Bring it to IC. Implement the 180.

Is the object of this so-called 'love' (even differentiating the Greek varieties of love still does not merit the word in this context. It plainly seems more like attraction and projection and transference) - is the object of this so-called love not really herself? i.e. how she feels about herself (being desired in forbidden 'love' situation), and limerancy or whatever.

In terms of your own attraction and desire of other people, that's not love either - at least not in my book, it's just attraction, isn't it?

For sure there is a lot of transference and projection. She talked so much about how on the same wavelength they were and understood each other... really? Or was that how she wanted to see it. All a bunch of limerence. She did not adequately invest the time in IC to dig enough and I think that's really her only path. Agreed I can't do it for her. And I need to break the codependency I have going on for sure.

No doubt I have been controlling the outcome from the outset, because both of us said we wanted to stay together... she laid that down as a ground rule for her AP that she'd never leave me. Is that financial? The kids? She makes out pretty well financially in a D. For sure the kids are a part of it, The thought of the impact on them is the worst. But it did set up a safe situation for her. I took comfort being chosen from the outset and that was false comfort.

Also thought she was going to stay at her parents tonight but she's just going to confess the details to them and then come back to the couch if that is okay with me. Honestly if she wants to be on the couch and put the kids on the bus, I don't see that as a bad thing. I don't see value in wielding my power as punishment.

Both of us need to find our hearts truth. Today's IC session was the first one where D was talked about in reality. I think we're both about to start the long road to what we really want and if it aligns. Because I don't think I can live being just a Camry whose owner pines for the Jag and still rides me every day.

Gently, I was initially heartened when my W told me she told ow she'd never leave me - until I realized she left me every time she left home to see her ap.

I'm not convinced that R is impossible for you. If your W sees how untenable it is to 'love' both ap and you may help her get herself together.

I am convinced that an M based on desire is far better than an M based on perceived need, that it's better to want than to need, that it's better to be wanted than to be needed.

I am convinced that seeing yourself living a good life whether you D or R is a step toward healing for you.

hdybrh,

I remember your original post, and those that have come since then.

I think that the issue here is that you have put all the power of choice in the marriage into the hands of your wife, and she has effectively engineered what she was originally aiming for, which is to be with both you and her affair partner, whether physically or emotionally.

Maintaining this dynamic by giving her 'space' or 'room' is simply enabling her to not make a choice at all. That is fine if you can live with sharing her, but if that is not how you envisage spending the rest of your life with her, it is time to take the power of choice into your own hands.

Giving her 'space' will not bring her back to the marriage; quite the opposite, as you are finding. All you are doing is giving her the power to have two men in her life.

Is that really what you would choose for yourself?

If it isn't, I think you need to change your position and tell her that she either commits to you 100% or you are going to make the choice to divorce her. No messing around with the 'separation' she suggests (so she can test drive her affair partner and come back if it does not work out).

I know that is a place you do not want to be, but as long as you let your wife control things, she will happily have two men in her life for as long as you permit it.

Let her face the prospect of her affair partner being the only man in her life, and you being out of it. Only then will reality intrude on her self-indulgent belief that she is entitled to have multiple men in her life.

What will change that situation is you making independent choices for yourself. You make the choice for yourself. And if she doesn't like that, it's tough. You gave her time and space, and she abused the privilege, and abused you.

Only you can change this situation by making the choice by liberating yourself from a marriage that is dissolving into something abusive that is not giving you the love and respect that you deserve. Why keep yourself in her male harem?

If she wants her affair partner so much, let her have him. And let him have her, and see how long he lasts before he can't stand it!

Fantasies like your wife's delusions about her affair partner do not last long when put to the test. And you should be free to find a more honest and loving person who will treat you with love and respect, not as part of a group.

Seriously, it is time to take control of your life out of your wife's hands, and decide how you want to move forward if you cannot tolerate being a percentage figure rather than a husband.

She remains wayward until he's absolutely dead to her. She will not be R material until she gets to the point where she wishes she had never met him and regrets every single second she ever spent with him or thinking about him.

The fact that she still "loves" him means that she still has an extremely long way to go before her head is out of her ass.

Thank you all for the help. She told me tearfully tonight before leaving to go tell her parents everything that she understands that I need "all of her." I reminded her that's the only way we can work. No instagram visits, no prayer for his poor tortured soul. 100% focus on me and US. if that's not possible we have a clear plan B. Which of course she reminded me that "she will never leave me unless I ask." And if I stay a plan B Camry I'll ask.

The near term plan

1. Back to IC at least weekly for both of us. Possibly a new counselor for her.

2. We're telling more people the full story. Shining light on the fantasy world and making it real brings it to light. Her telling her parents tonight is a big step. While I'm not about to post it on social media a lot more people are going to know. Sick of being the "perfect couple" to everyone.

3. I'm working to open my mind and heart to all possibilities, D or R. What is best for me and trying to not be the pretzel. Going 180 for myself and taking control. I have to work on my fog/bias of just focusing on getting the marriage to work.

I've spent these months ceeding control for sure... the tears are hers now. But I do want to give this time and as long as there's progress I can wait it out. I know many of you say that I shouldn't. And I respect and appreciate each spoken truth here.

Brother gently, you are NOT in R at all, not even close, no progress, she's even separating from you. Your WW is not a candidate for R by a very long shot, she's still in the A. You need to take decisive action and stop saying "she picked me", "she chose me", you're giving her full control to "pick/choose", she also "picked" him and "chose" to have an A, she even admitted that she would have asked you for an open M had he taken their relationship more serious, are you effing kidding me ?. Take that control back from her and EXPOSE the A with ALL family and close friends and file for D without warning, if she doesn't bend over backwards and does the heavy lifting to restore the M she destroyed, then just let D run its course and get out of his hell.

She did a thorough NC letter and he's honored it. But she has visited his instagram perodically and admitted it. Worries how he's doing and wants to see that he's moving on. She admits the pining and addict aspect of it, hence the post I made a couple weeks ago when she asked me never to say his name, This didn't bother me because I thought I was #1 in her heart.

I do wonder if she will break NC to get closure. Part of me thinks that might not be a bad thing. This guy is a piece of work.

You sound weak when you say things like this, she's still pining for him and you think breaking NC to get closure may not even be a bad thing, you know "closure" often means getting laid "one last time", FULL EXPOSURE typically helps lift the "fog" and instead of remembering the A and AP as something beautiful, magical, exciting and/or romantic, the sheer embarrassment of exposure helps the WS remember the A as the one thing that damaged her reputation and integrity, the more she hates the A, the more she will hate AP, and she will get out of the "fog" much faster.

The separation when initiated by the WS is typically intended to continue the A without being monitored by the BS.

Your last two posts are encouraging. And yes, you obviously need to change your mindset. Divorce isn't the worst outcome here. The worst outcome would be to stay in a passionless marriage with an ambivalent wife who pines away for her true love. You don't need to minimize her year long affair. It has brought great pain to someone who has cherished her for 20 years and has the potential to break the family. The AP is a sleazebag. The fact that she still looks back at it fondly pretty much negates any 'work' done on her part. Either she comes back completely or you go and find a partner who is all in.

Check if they are still in contact. And are you sure that you have the full story? Either way, it's good that you are letting go of the outcome and putting yourself first.

You got nothing but time, brother. I do think whatever she has been doing in IC isn't working, but that is her journey not yours. Time to let her pass or fail on her own.

You've got a new plan. Stick to it. It sometimes can work out in ways you can never expect.

What would it take for your W show you that she chooses you for the "right" reasons ? Your pride is going to require her to atone. What does that look like to you ?

Questions to ponder to yourself to help you determine the right choice. Probably good IC starting point too.

Further I don't think she sees you Ding her. She just refuses to believe it right now. That is OK, but it is keeping her from hitting rock bottom. Some WS need to hit rock bottom before they wipe away all the bullshit and begin the real work that is need to become the person they've always pretended to be. Accountability is a start, but what is the next step ?

At this point I see her slowly stepping up her game and then waiting to see if that satisfies you so the M can "go back to normal." Normal left the station a long time ago. A new normal will emerge. Good, bad or the same, but the old M is dead. Building a new one is her only shot at R.

She keeps looking to you for validation. Don't feed that beast. Doesn't matter what she does or does not do if you learn to stand on your own two feet. Harder done than said. Building yourself back up to a point of strength without needing her is healthy any way you slice it.

You’re doing pretty well and have gotten lots of good advice.

I like that you are starting to put your foot down and saying what you need.

Truth is, you should ask what you are looking for in a wife, lover and partner going forward. Even document it for yourself.

Then when it’s time to talk, communicate it. This is the time for you each to decide if she can be that person for you or not.

Dont settle. Of course if you are demanding wild sex every night then your not going to get it. But there are things you should reasonably expect.

And to be honest, if she can’t give you at least some of what she gave to the AP then she probably won’t be able to help you find happiness. But again, that’s for you to decide.

For sure there is a lot of transference and projection. She talked so much about how on the same wavelength they were and understood each other... really? Or was that how she wanted to see it.

This is such a telling and true statement. The transference and projection is strong in an A - often it's the only explanation for who we pick - typically someone completely inappropriate for us. That took me a long time to understand that was happening on both ends. I will tell you some of it is - once we realize we were doing it the part that is hard to accept is that the AP was doing it too. We fell for the "we're special to them" hook, line and sinker. It's the epitome of what drives the affair for many of us. Without disassembling this aspect, the affair is still being driven, just in absence of the other.

All this to say - what you are saying over the last couple of posts - absolutely the best route. It's the sanest way you can approach the whole thing. It will do two things in my opinion based on my very own experience:

- It will allow you to see a path to healing with or without her. That is the MOST important thing you can give yourself.

-It will show her what it is she is REALLY afraid to lose. It's easy to place emphasis on the "mourning" of someone lost from our life, but compare that to the mourning of the loss of someone who REALLY does matter in our life...it brings great perspective. While that should never be the motivation for doing what you are doing, I am still saying it because I think that knowledge can help you as you navigate this. It will not hurt her in the least to see the comparison another way. It snapped my perspective greatly, what came from that was knowing there was no comparison at all between the two - one was real, one was not. Stay strong.

I told her yesterday, because I've used the analogy before, that I don't want to be just "the Camry." And she also said she'd fight for the marriage if I ever asked for a D. That she's ready to fight for us in general. GOOD!

Telling her parents was huge, now they share the pain we've had. They've both reached out to me indvidually and both of us. Now she sees the hurt in them and it's another bursting of the fantasy bubble.

Choosing me for the right reasons? Atonement? it's first really working in IC to unpack everything. Own it. Her IC hasn't been deep enough, expressing being "good" and ready to move to MC after a few sessions. Sorry there's a lot more work.

Passion. Yup. That's not something you can fake. And while we can't do it 24/7, it's either there or it isn't from both sides.

It's also as things start to feel normal again, yeah not happening any time soon, but what behaviors and actions stick. There's a pattern of behavior from the time of the A that at the time wasn't an issue but now would be red flags. As many of us can attest, when somethings off you know.

It is damn hard walking around without my ring on. Feels wrong, but I know my goal is to put it back on when I'm ready and until then it's a symbol of her work to do kicking the AP mentally to the curb and me asserting myself. It should have come off on D-day but I had my own fog to deal with.

she did not love me more than the AP

Reading your posts, only one thing comes to mind.

She is not a safe partner for you or the marriage, any marriage. She still doesn't get it, the damage, the destructiveness, the pain of the BS.

Reminds me of the old cars from the 50's, 60's, and 70's, you might like them, you might find them beautiful, but they are going to hurt you badly if things go wrong and unless things are perfect you can't trust them.

I know my goal is to put it back on when I'm ready and until then...

I realize everybody responds to and/or heals from trauma his own way. It's quite possible that what you're doing is from your heart's truth.

I've said repeatedly on your threads that, to me, it sounds inauthentic. This ring thing is one example of many. You're not taking off the ring because you are actually done. You're taking it off as a gambit to try to get her to act a certain way. If there is one thing that is screamed loud and clear from the many threads on SI, using gambits as a means to coerce or lure a wayward spouse into R doesn't work.

As others have said, from the perspective of a third party, you are not in R, not even close. To the contrary, you are playing a highly stylized version of the pick me dance. Again, I acknowledge that, in the end, this may work for you. For me, it would never work. I could never look myself in the mirror and like the man looking back if I knew the woman in my bed, masquerading as my wife, is always on the verge of leaving for another man and only stays if I walk on eggshells and pretend to be the best husband ever.

I wish you luck and happiness. I truly do. But speaking frankly, as a stranger on the internet can do, I doubt you'll find it doing what you're doing.

But she also picked me because as she said and maintained I'm 80% of what she needs and he was 20%.

From where I sit, she didn't "pick" you. You're a default to her, like the dog that comes back wagging its tail, seeking positive affirmation, even after its owner kicks it. True marital love must come from a place of respect and honor. She openly disrespects and dishonors you.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 6:46 AM, May 1st (Wednesday)]

Gently my friend, the only thing that is going to knock your WW out of her fog is slapping a filed divorce petition down on the table in front of her. Talking, begging, negotiating...none of that stuff works.

The shit will get real when she realizes you are ready and serious about walking.

Gently my friend, the only thing that is going to knock your WW out of her fog is slapping a filed divorce petition down on the table in front of her.

I disagree with this type of advice 100%. My advice: do NOT file D as a gambit to catalyze some response from her, such as "knocking her out of her fog".

The point is to find your truth, and to get yourself out of infidelity. You are stuck in an feedback loop of infidelity at present, and have been since your first post. You have made no move out of infidelity.

Again, this may be okay for you. I don't know your personal truth. But from my perspective, looking from the outside as a stranger with no dog in your fight, you should file D because it is your only path out of infidelity.

I told her yesterday, because I've used the analogy before, that I don't want to be just "the Camry." And she also said she'd fight for the marriage if I ever asked for a D. That she's ready to fight for us in general. GOOD!

Meh. What are the odds that you will ask for a D? Slim to none. Why isn't she fighting now? Why are you making her the prize, instead of yourself?

Limbo is a self imposed state. At this time you are stringing yourself along.

Talk as you've seen will probably get you more of what you've gotten.

Go your own way for a bit. She'll either figure it out or she won't.

You can't expect things to change in a matter of days. But yes, you've been far too accommodating and only now are seeing clearly her ambivalence towards you and the marriage in general. She's so cruel and heartless right now. Work on accepting that this marriage might be too broken to fix and you'll be fine if the breakdown happens.

Serving papers or covertly threatening does nothing. Do it only when you're 100% sure that you deserve better.