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Was really hopeful through the first four months of R. Had productive IC and then MC. MC our therapist talked about how we should have an amazingly strong marriage because of our ability to communicate and be honest and she's been at it for 30+ years.

Certainly a roller coaster but my WS unequivocally chose me over the AP, maintained NC. Our sex life, communication and day to day was overall better than could be expected and in some of those areas better than ever in our 15 year marriage.

Last week I discovered through one of our conversations that she did not love me more than the AP even today...said it was equal but different This was a shock, though I knew and expected that she still "loved" him I couldn't believe it was on par with her love for me. I know this is the "fog" but still found this deeply troubling. I felt that she had more empathy for the AP than me her BS. I trusted that this fog would eventually lift but rather than wait I asserted myself. And of course being told your delusional and in a fog doesn't make anyone feel good.

On Saturday I implemented the 180 and Sunday took off my ring. I stated that I will put it back on if/when she is over him and decides that she loves me more.

She maintains that we're prepared to lose our marriage over semantics. This is very painful and I'm wondering if I needed to force the issue at all.

She's going to her parents tonight to stay there. Taking the initiative to assert independence and strength for herself and talking about separation.

Having read the books, threads and received lots of advice I think I'm taking the right path, but before unearthing this truth we were both happy and seemly on our way to a successful R. The fog would have eventually lifted on its own. Did I dig too much? Was she honest to a fault?

Instead we're seemingly back to D-day or worse and it hurts like hell.

[This message edited by hdybrh at 8:41 AM, April 29th (Monday)]

Serve her... it may wake her up or drive her off. But show her you mean business.

She still loves him. She's still pining for him. He's like a drug to her and she's an addict. The level of physical attraction she feels for him is much higher than you and worth risking your marriage for. She's initiating a separation. Gently, this isn't reconciliation.

How far from the end of her affair are you? Not D-Day but when it actually ended? It took me a good 6 months to even think straight regarding my AP and feelings for him. Probably the better part of a year to process everything and realize what I had wasn't love.

This is really painful. I wasn't very decisive on my DDay but if my cheating partner would have said something like that

She maintains that we're prepared to lose our marriage over semantics.

I would have probably lost my shit. She calls being in love with her AP 'semantics' is just insane. And it's not "we" who are prepared to lose the marriage, it's only "HER".

I'm sorry, but I don't see any "we" in her story, it really is time for some decisive action.

Semantics my ass, I'm still angry

It's only my opinion... but I think you are doing the right thing.

It sounds to me like she is still romanticizing her relationship with him. Honestly, could you be happy going forward knowing she is harboring romantic thoughts/feelings for someone else, someone she betrayed you with? I know that I could not live like that.

She's trying to say it's semantics?? Fine, then have her define her meaning of the word love as it applies to him. Then have her define her meaning of the word love as it applies to you. What kind of love does someone have for the person that collaborated with them to destroy their spouse they also profess to love??

Again, it sounds like she's still romanticizing her A. You can't R with someone still pining for their AP. I'm so sorry.

hdybrh

Having read the books, threads and received lots of advice I think I'm taking the right path, but before unearthing this truth we were both happy and seemly on our way to a successful R. The fog would have eventually lifted on its own. Did I dig too much? Was she honest to a fault?

If you were in love with both another woman and your wife do you think you would be happy?

I don't know where you stand spiritually but I believe Matthew 6:24, while speaking specifically about money, could apply to your situation.

"No one can serve two masters, for either they will hate the one and love the other, or else they will hold to the one and despise the other"

While painful now it could be best to force her to make a decision. You deserve more than to simply be an option for her.

I remember your post about "not mentioning her AP's name". I agree with PeaceLily, she is still romanticizing her relationship with him, not mentioning him would let him be intact in her fantasy world, you dragging the rat into the open, well, this is a no-no, because in the bright light there would be visible for everybody what he really is. And she knows it.

But, hey, for her, this is probably semantics too...

She still doesn't see the A in reality. She is still idealizing it. She may not be cheating, but she is still wayward if that makes sense.

FWIW- In cases where the fog continues much longer than normal it is clear that there is some form of contact. Maybe even as minor as mental contact.

Do you think that is the case ? You do have to be prepared to lose this M if you want to save it.

Please be kind to yourself during this time. While she does not think it is a choice to entertain these thought. It is 100% a choice. To actively keep him living rent free in her head or actively begin working out what he provided her that she can provide for herself.

You are never going to nice her back into the M. Further there is nothing you can do to make her love you. I am really sorry, but that is the cold hard truth.

In a round about way this is not good, but does have a silver lining. She is processing this. That is a positive. The choice you have is to decide if your patience has run out and/or you think that this could one day change.

Another part of this is troubling. She still kind of gets off on the fact that she had a choice between two guys that both wanted her. Only when she realizes that no one wants her would she be motivated to figure out why this was important to her.

Much, much more time in IC needed for her. Plus she needs to be motivated to want to change.

And of course being told your delusional and in a fog doesn't make anyone feel good.

If it is your take on it then no I don't think it was the wrong move. Plus when you assert yourself it makes it easier to respect the choices you are making.

I think the 180 and working on detaching from her is a good detox for you. Give her crickets and go about living your life. IT will be her decision whether she wants to do the work to get better and see her with more honesty.

Have you been keeping up with your IC ? Get in that chair and begin to explore your options.

It is disturbing that she still holds a candle for him. Nothing you can do in that space except work on yourself. Do yourself a favor and give yourself a break from her. No contact. Begin to let what she told you sink in. Mourn that alone. You can always pick up the pieces later on. Just sit with it and figure out what it means for you.

((hdybrh))

What she said was horribly cruel and hurtful. She needs to realize this and that you respect yourself enough to not settle for second place. It is your choice to accept that or not.

FWIW she seems to "pick" you because of what you can offer her beyond the OM. If there was one or two more things then would she have left you for OM ? Or did OM not want her IRL ? She needs to pick through this more in IC. She doesn't have to cruelly process this in front of you. The heart can only take so much before it begins to harden.

Also in IC look at your co-dependency issues. Most of us have them and it is amazing.

Above all else be kind to yourself and do things that nourish your sense of self.

Is she trying to contract you ? Give it some time. Right now anything she says is just going to add to the hurt. Don't give her more chances to hurt you.

FWIW- In cases where the fog continues much longer than normal it is clear that there is some form of contact. Maybe even as minor as mental contact.

This is why I asked when did she actually end contact, not when dday was. I'm assuming for her she is looking at social media or old messages or something that is holding her in place. You asked her to be honest with you and she was, you didn't like the answer.

I would echo Pinkpiggy on it took 6 months to start understanding the romanticizing- it took me a long time to get my thinking straight. That's not to say you have to put up with it, but sharing to let you know that she is still in the fog (not like you don't know that) but looking back I can't believe I ever put AP above my husband, family, or even let him near me. The 180 I believe is the right move.

I will just say that once I realized it, I couldn't unsee it any more. I was so disgusted with myself I couldn't stand myself. You will know when she gets there. There is a lot of unwinding to do for her and she needs to be accountable to it. It's not at all semantics. I know it's unbelievable at this point. However, we don't get to a place of cheating and then we are fine and normal again. A lot of brainwashing and building justifications to get through the cognitive dissonance is really a brain re-wiring process and it doesn't just snap back into normal shape afterwards.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:50 AM, April 29th (Monday)]

"I'm assuming for her she is looking at social media or old messages or something that is holding her in place. You asked her to be honest with you and she was, you didn't like the answer."

yep. she's not keeping NC, which includes thoughts and social media stalking. do not stand for this.

semantics? how very insulting to you. invite her to leave permanently.

[This message edited by sewardak at 9:56 AM, April 29th (Monday)]

There is a saying on here...”you have to be willing to LOSE the marriage in order to SAVE it”.

You can answer YOUR questions by answering this...do YOU want to be in a marriage where your spouse loves someone as EQUALLY as you?

The “fog” can last forever IF the WS doesn’t face the reality of what the adultery co-conspirator IS. He USED your wife. As long as she thinks otherwise... she will believe the flowery words he used to get in her pants. Affairs don’t happen because of LOVE...they happen because of SELFISHNESS.

Thank you all for the quick and helpful responses. Oh man do I appreciate this community.

To address some of the questions, D-day was 12/30 but she cut off contact with him before that, realizing she needed to move on from him. I took comfort that she saw then the need to be over him. The PA was over the January before, so there was 11 months of sporadic contact, you could say it went EA to PA then back to EA.

We started R with the equal desire to stay together. She said that she would never leave me unless I wanted her to. Seeing that commitment and security I told her I wanted the same. It felt like security in our early days of fall out.

And I've been a needy hot mess for a lot of the last 4 months. Emailing her and texting her a lot and bombarding her with questions. Seeking affirmation. She's taken it all in stride.

She did a thorough NC letter and he's honored it. But she has visited his instagram perodically and admitted it. Worries how he's doing and wants to see that he's moving on. She admits the pining and addict aspect of it, hence the post I made a couple weeks ago when she asked me never to say his name, This didn't bother me because I thought I was #1 in her heart.

I do wonder if she will break NC to get closure. Part of me thinks that might not be a bad thing. This guy is a piece of work.

We did an analysis of the Greek loves because she said her love for him was different but what that did was prove that and what do you know the total love is equal. Just what she believed!

As part of this 180, she will indeed get what she wants because I'm not initiating contact or talking about the situation.

She admits he's an asshole... a toxic man... not worthy of the love she has for him. But she still gives it. And it makes me ill.

The reference to Matthew and two masters helps. Because I was at one point in love with someone else. Never expressed it to the person, but hid it from my wife. Call that an EA if you will (barely 3 points on the Shirley Glass quiz) but I can actually understand loving two people.. and in this case I even accepted it. It helped me understand because for a time I was there too. And as I result (I know you'll get mad at me), I showed empathy for her loss of friendship. Because I understood that. All while showing disgust at where she took it.

She wanted to be a KISA for both of us. Wanted to be the Best thing that ever happened to both of us. Now trying to not be the worst.

I will be getting back to IC and she will too. Take a step back on the MC.

I am a child of divorce. It's the last thing I ever wanted my kids to experience. I understand that we have to be ready to lose the marriage to save it. But the thought of that is heartbreaking to me. And yeah, my wife loving another guy as much as me is heartbreaking too.

Gently - she is not NC. Not if she's looking at him on Instagram [or any social media]. Every click resets the clock to Ground Zero.

She can't have it both ways. And you can't have it like this for R to have a chance.

I'll start by saying that there is nothing "semantic" about saying that you love someone else as much as you love your spouse. To imply that you're overreacting about mere words is offensive. I think she's right to be truthful, but that doesn't absolve her of responsibility for that truth. She doesn't get to be in love with another man and also be annoyed that it upsets you.

On to point B, though, which is whether it's surprising that she still feels that way. I'm going to stick my neck out and say no. I never felt equivalency myself; I was always more in love with, and more committed to, BH. That being said, I still had deep feelings for the OM after D-Day, and I resisted NC. In my mind, I had broken his heart. I had taken what I wanted/needed from him and now was supposed to abandon him to recover alone. My BH, on the other hand, had "won." He had me, and OM had nothing. I should have been focused exclusively on BH, but it took me some time to see that. IIRC, you mentioned in another post that OM had mental issues that made him vulnerable, which is going to make her even more worried about him in NC.

Your WW is reacting to a Catch-22 of her own making. She wants to be a good person who is doing the right thing. The problem is that the "right thing" is a zero sum game. Right for you is wrong for him. Staying with you is also right for her, so you both "win" at his expense. How can that make her a good person in her own eyes? So she reinforces the idea in her own mind that she still loves him and is suffering along with him even as she heals along with you. It's fucked up thinking, but I recognize it.

The only cure for this is time, and a lot of it. Eventually, she will realize that he has to have moved on and started to heal, and she will feel that it's ok for her to let go of him and do the same. I'm not saying in any way that you are obligated to stick around for this process. If it's a deal breaker, I totally support that. It's a huge ask from her and should never be treated as an entitlement. I'm just not sure it's something she can fix quickly because she knows she should, or even because she wants to.

Did I dig too much? Was she honest to a fault?

Ugh, tough questions. Part of me is tempted to say she was. After all, no one knows her internal gauge but her. It would be so easy to tell you what you needed to hear. But then, that's the slippery slope that made me TT my BH, the knowledge that there was no evidence for anything I had thought or done. If she's going to be honest, she has to be all in. If you aren't prepared to hear it, you probably shouldn't poke the bear.

And with regard to OM.

The night they kissed, he asked her if she would ever leave me, and she said she never would. That basically set the ground rules and as a result the OM thought she was crazy to think of it as a relationship, despite the investment of time in the friendship and their helping each other through tough times. They had sex 4 times and he said he would always be happy to be her "mistress". But that any sort of relationship or "love" would be crazy. So at that point she chose me BUT had he also loved her (his response to I love you from her was an I care deeply about you) then she would have told me and asked for an open marriage. That would have been a disaster.

But she also picked me because as she said and maintained I'm 80% of what she needs and he was 20%. But that 20% was the Eros, attraction, great sex piece, which makes me and my 80% the equivalent of the Toyota Camry of husbands. Reliable, sort of good looking, worth the investment. A sensible choice. And he's the Jaguar that leaks oil in the driveway but goes fast and is fun to look at but isn't the least bit reliable or worth trusting. So of course she traded in the Jag for the Camry but she thinks daily of the old car.

I've come to accept through this process that I can't be everything for someone nor can a partner be everything for me. But I at least deserve to be loved more than the other. This isn't a situation like you love your kids the same. I'm her f****ng husband. I deserve to be loved more than any other man.

hdy

You are doing the right thing. Let me state that up front.

I also understand the POV of the WS friends that are posting here. That it may still be early and her head is truly still in the fog.

But it is NOT your job to break that fog.

Whether it is fog or Love or Pining or something else, it is up to her to remove it from your lives.

So the work you do should be to help you heal. With or without her. And if she cannot do it with you, then you need to do it on your own.

Telling you she is in love with another man, even if an equal amount as you is NOT relationship building it is relationship destroying.

My standard go to response to a WS who is pining away for another or deciding to be with the BS as planB or still in anyway IN LURVE with an AP is to tell them something like:

“I will not share my wife’s heart with another man. I need to heal from your A and work to find a relationship where I love someone and they solely are in love with me. If you cannot be that person then I think it’s best we go our separate ways and work on ourselves.

If down the the road this changes for you and you can prove it to me I am willing to listen if I am still in a position to do so.

I wish you happiness going forward as I hope to find for myself. I will work to legally end this relationship that has been damaged so much by infidelity “

Truth is you cannot work to R with someone who is not solely focused on you as the their life’s love. So don’t try until they are that person.

My hope for you is that if she ever shows up as a truly remorseful WS who realizes the AP is a POS and not a good or lovable person and that she lost the only good person in her life because of her awful choices, that you have found someone who can love and appreciate you as you deserve.

Hope that helps.

"But she has visited his instagram perodically and admitted it. Worries how he's doing and wants to see that he's moving on."

and this would be a dealbreaker for me.

ask yourself why it's ok with you?

do not entertain a reconciliation with her at this time. Work on yourself. Hard.

Classic KISA. Your wife wants to play Mother Teresa of Calcutta to both you and the AP.

I am irreligious. But the Matthew and the masters does not apply here simply because, your wife thinks she is the master. There is a subtle megalomania here. There are studies that say sports-persons tend to be more poly-amorous. That's because part of their training involves psychological conditioning to make them believe that they are superior to others and that also results in them believing that they can maintain a relationship with more than one person, and that just confining their love/intimacy to just a single person is not enough.

I see a similar nature in your wife's request for being poly-amorous. If I remember from your first thread, she was worried that if the marriage is opened, you might fall in love with another woman. I am willing to bet she was also jealous when the AP wanted to pursue other relationships.

It's like a Turkish harem. The Sultan can have many concubines, but the concubine has to have only one Sultan. Your wife should understand that she isn't that "great" to freely love two men equally.