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If she's going to be honest, she has to be all in. If you aren't prepared to hear it, you probably shouldn't poke the bear.

This is true. My WH has said a pile of stuff I didn't want to hear. He's even said as much: "I'm sorry but you asked and I'm trying to be honest." This of course begs the question: if you're so honest how did we get here, but that's circular and pointless fodder for endless arguments. Sigh.

I'm so sorry you're in this boat - I'm there too but I need to get out and let it sink on it's own.

It's an interesting idea that she is trying to be the master. She's a stay at home Mom. So I control the finances and for better or worse have steered most of the decisions in our married life. I wanted to support more of her independence in R, and for not to feel trapped. in some ways this could be a power play. But she certainly believed and believes that she can be enough for both of us and was. And I admit that I was "happy" and she met my needs during the A, but that was based on false assumptions. But that doesn't make a lick of difference when she was betraying me with him.

As a result, and I've posted before, I have struggled with feelings for others during this time. Subconciously thinking, well, why is polyamory so bad... maybe I'll just go find a side person. This is clearly flawed and broken thinking. But it's been a big part of my thoughts and I've been open with my WS and in IC.

And on the previous question, I didn't have a problem with the instagram visits because I thought this was part of the mourning process. And I identified with it thinking of how I once was in love with someone else. I certainly see now it was just perpetuating the love and delusion.

I know there's a whole lot of work to do here. For both of us.

Her actions in the name of 'honesty' are super painful to read. Inconsiderate as hell if you ask me. At this point it's clear that you are the one more invested in saving the marriage. That is what causes you to minimize her words and second guess yourself. No spouse in the world will be happy to hear that they are the safer choice. All this passion and physical chemistry with just 4 encounters? Bit hard to believe unless the guy was Adonis himself. Her thinking is still wayward.

Anytime you feel like you're pushing her too much or whether you are asking for a lot, know that you are still operating from a position of fear and codependency. You keep bringing up your own 'affair' which wasn't in the same ballpark. No physical contact, no proclamation of love, you cut if off yourself, you voluntarily confessed. You've been the most reasonable BS. The only work you should focus on right now is in IC.

Edit: I remember reading Not Just Friends for my own betterment. One thing that really struck me was when she writes that the Wayward is the one who gives less to the marriage. This certainly seems true in your case. You can't make her do/feel anything but you can honestly demand more.

[This message edited by Rustylife at 11:25 AM, April 29th (Monday)]

Sorry youre dealing with all of our worst fears... false reconciliation. Time to lawyer up and file my friend! You deserve better and she deserves what she gets. Blow both of their worlds up. Sorry brother

I didn't have a problem with the instagram visits because I thought this was part of the mourning process. And I identified with it thinking of how I once was in love with someone else. I certainly see now it was just perpetuating the love and delusion.

Exactly. Your WW has never been required to take off the rose-colored glasses and LOOK at the AP. He is a filthy, dishonest person who had no moral compunction about trespassing on another human being's life. She doesn't want to look at that because the AP reflects herself back at her. They always do. To see the evil of the AP is to see it in herself. She can't change what she doesn't see. Her refusal to open her eyes and look makes her wayward still.

People aren't all good or all bad, but they're certainly bad while they're cheating and lying. Whether she decides to stay that way or not is on her. And if she's honest in R with you, she should never know if the AP changes or not because she will have maintained strict NC. It would be none of her business and she won't care either way. If she's not capable of that, she's not capable of being faithful.

"Getting closure" is a myth. There's no activity or meeting of the minds which results in it. Being done IS closure. She's clearly NOT done if she's still checking out the AP's social media and hasn't dismissed his presence in her life as bad thing.

Hybridh: I've noticed your threads as they crop up from time to time. The reason they have been noteworthy to me is that you have not really told your story to us in any of them. We can only offer advice based on what is posted. There is an aspect to your threads that feels as if you are advice-shopping here, crafting your threads in a manner that seeks affirmation that what you are doing is correct, as opposed to just putting the whole story out there so that posters can offer unvarnished feedback based on the whole picture.

My gut tells me that you are twisting yourself like a pretzel to figure out ways to rug-sweep and minimize your WW's A, mainly because of this deeply-held desire to prevent your kids from experiencing a parental divorce, as you did in your childhood. I do understand this sentiment, but I would submit that the lesson you are teaching your kids is that your relationship model is one to which they should aspire, but it feels like your relationship is based on the idea that you're okay being "Plan B" for your WW, somebody she will settle for because you are a decent provider for the kids, even though she harbors no real love nor desire for you.

I am generally suspicious when a newly-minted BS posts for the first time in Reconciliation, especially if it's fresh on the heels of DDay. There is no way somebody at that stage is realistically in R. Your premature rush to create what appears to be a simulacrum of R, in lieu of the real thing, worries me about you. I think in the long run you'll regret it.

Just my two cents. I could be completely off the mark.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 12:04 PM, April 29th (Monday)]

I wouldn't say its a powerplay. More like a overcompensation to an inferiority feeling that led her to feeling superior and seeking validation by means of being loved by two men at the same time and loving two men equally at the same time in return. Most WS can be categorized broadly as either cake-eaters or exit-affairs types.

Your wife wanted an openly polyamorous marriage where you will accept her lover. Now this is beyond cake eating where secrecy is part of the thrill of the affair.

As for your EA, what Rustylife said.

I do wonder if she will break NC to get closure. Part of me thinks that might not be a bad idea.

Any contact at all is not a good thing. Your thinking is flawed.

Never feed a cake eater. They'll just want more cake.

It won't be closure but a continuation.

Wake up

[This message edited by Marz at 12:16 PM, April 29th (Monday)]

If he point blank told her he didn't love her, and that she was crazy to see it as a relationship, that pretty much blows my hypothesis out of the water. This isn't about her worrying about him. It's about her worrying about her.

I'm so sorry.

I'm mostly a lurker here, but your story is very similar to mine. My wife also gave me the 'I love you both, just in a different way' speech.

I spent a lot of time reading about and considering this at the time.

If you were to ask most happily married women if they love their father, they would say yes. And they love their husband, just in a different way. They love their mother also, in a way they love their father, but not like their spouse. Spousal love is romantic love, and almost always is exclusive to their spouse.

You actually got the: I love you but I'm not "in love" with you speech, same as me. The 'in love' is in quotes because it really means romantic love.

I think you have it figured, you're the Camry and he's the Jag.

I think you are wrong about one thing though. She didn't choose you over him. The scale has him on one side, and the other side includes you, her marriage, and her family. Most women take their marriage and family very seriously, so this isn't a true apples to apples choice.

So, she is not willing to tell you she doesn't love him. I think she probably sees this as a betrayal of her AP, and is unwilling to do that, trying to pass this off as semantics. Push comes to shove and she is not willing to renounce this guy. Bad sign!

Finally, I just don't think you have the whole story here. EA, then PA, then EA again. Doesn't make sense to me. You need to dig deeper, you have a highly edited version of their relationship.

Good luck on this. I think you're in a deeper hole than you realize, you did the right thing by pushing the issue. I wish I had more wisdom to offer. These things are so complicated and emotionally difficult.

Having read the books, threads and received lots of advice I think I'm taking the right path....

Look deep inside. Is this the path you want to take.

It's important to get to what you really want, even if it's inaccessible. If you really want the 180, go for it. If you want something different, you need to know it; otherwise, you're too likely to sabotage yourself.

Stevesn's way of telling your W what you're doing is IMO sound - brief, clear, honest.

I, too, think you may be doing some rug-sweeping, and I think it's hurting you. The way use 'fog' concerns me. I use it myself, as shorthand for 'not being in touch with reality.' Some people see the term as an excuse, and I have to ask: do you see the fog as an excuse? As something that mitigates, for example, her breaking NC by checking instagram?

By 'fog,' do you mean:

she still hasn't cleaned up her act

-or-

the poor girl - *sniff* - hasn't gotten through her fog yet...?

Remember, the fog is self-imposed. It's not an excuse.

*****

Still, I think it's common for WSes to stay effed up for many months after d-day. In addition to the testimony from WSes above, my W said it took 5 months for her to begin to feel remorse. It took her at least that long to realize what she did was conduct an A, just a normal, sordid A. Up until then, she thought she was saving a life - KISA crap.

She was doing all the right things, but her thinking was still effed up.

*****

I'm a little confused. How will you know you're first in her heart, guts, and brain? No matter what, her words can't carry much weight at this point. I recommend trusting behavior more than words.

Again, my W said she wasn't remorseful for at least 5 months. She went NC and maintained it, answered all my questions, was transparent, did IC; she did all the things a remorseful, contrite person would do.

So ... was she not remorseful, or was she remorseful without recognizing she was?

Does your W think equally lovingly of you and OM, or does she place one of you first without realizing it? And if she places one of you first, is it you or him?

*****

I am concerned that you may be planning the 180 as a tool to manipulate your W. It's not designed work that way, and if it does - if your W returns because she fears losing you - the results are less than optimal. The best WS candidate for R wants to change from betrayer to good partner for her own reasons, not in order to win you back.

I, too, think getting more detached would be good for you - but that will work best if your goal is to detach so you can be yourself. If you've got an ulterior motive, you may be choosing the wrong path for you.

Sorry for lack of contaxt. Here is my original post:

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=634518

It became a lot about outing him, which come to find out he technically didn't violate any professional standards in our state.

And my last one https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=637375&HL=69288

This one on self esteem https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=636619

I also posted about attraction to other women and temptations for an RA.

Lots of making excuses for her for sure. And I think the 180 is certainly about me too. Not as punshiment for her but about me taking a stand. And yes I won't know just based on her saying, I love you more... it's prolonged actions.

And agreed on IC. I'm off to IC in half an hour and she will be this week and hopefully often as well. The distance is important.

I am rug-sweeping to an extent. And for months I've been mourning that I can't have back what I had. And so I've set my sights on rebuilding and she has said she wanted the same... that she unequivocally chose me. Except of course it wasn't completely.

I asked her the other day if she knew all that she knows about me after 21 years and all that she knows about him after 3 and there are no kids or obligations to worry about. Who does she choose and she said me? She said he's not marriage material. So that's comforting. As well as her saying that when she visualizes her heart he's in a small part of it and I'm in many parts... but it's still not enough. She needs to be over him and if she can do that I'll put the rings back on restart the work. And maybe even then my goal may have changed. Until then we both need the IC and introspection to make sense of what's real and what's imagined. It's a long road and I know it.

As a result, and I've posted before, I have struggled with feelings for others during this time.

There is a fallacy here based on thought or "feelings" for others. There is no crime in feeling what you feel or thinking what you think. I would wager that a very large percentage of people able top make it through a long marriage without infidelity still included some "impure" emotional thoughts.

No, it is not about what you think or what you think you feel, it is about what you do. I could be thinking stars in my eye thoughts right now about my first love. We think and feel all kinds of things and many are not within out control to not think or feel.

The one thing in our total control is what we do about our thoughts or feelings. If my wife thinks about a former boyfriend but does nothing about those thoughts, such is life.

If on the other hand, my wife has thoughts of a former boyfriend, calls him, and agrees to whisper sweet bullshit in his ear while he has his way with her......well, that is a completely different thing.

Your thoughts or feelings of others, not acted upon, is nothing at all like her choice to act. I get the sense that you have made your choice and are figuring out how you need to internalize things in order make the choice more palatable.....or lesspainful

[This message edited by DIFM at 1:16 PM, April 29th (Monday)]

The idea of a marriage is to not be a choice. If she "chooses" you, then that isn't much to talk home about. If she tells you that she would maintain NC with the AP even if you divorced, then there's hope.

Like Plumber said, your wife, even when she says she is choosing you, is in fact choosing more than just you as a person, but every other material comfort that you bring for her. That in itself is not wrong. But her loving another man too, while "choosing" you is wrong.

Your wife, should prove her commitment by actions and not by words anymore. She should admit that loving her AP is a despicable act and not some "semantics" that you should get over with.

Doesn't sound like she is a candidate for reconciliation.

It's crazy the WS that does this yet still expects the BS to hold up their end of the deal and support them through it. Then they wonder why years later the BS is at indifference

And what if he was "marriage material"? Something to ponder. Hope you have a productive session with your therapist. Work on your needs and fear. You are the prize here and it is to be seen if your WW is worthy of having you in her life. Right now she isn't.

Checking out his social media is a definite break of NC. No real reconciliation can be done while this is going on. Instagram shows to the user who is viewing their Insta story. So the AP is aware that your wife is pining for him as well. Like star crossed lovers who would be together if not for her awful husband. This isn't NC.

[This message edited by Rustylife at 1:30 PM, April 29th (Monday)]

Some of this just was so very close to what my FWH and I went thru that I just have to comment. Your comment about being the Toyota and he's the Jag - I told my husband his AP was the sparkly F**k me high heel and I was the comfortable old slipper. I wanted to be both to him and it has taken me all of 4 years to realize I am occasionally the glamorous, sexy shoe, but in day to day life, I'm the old slipper. That's what happens after years of marriage - it would have happened to them, too, if he had left me for her.

The other thing that resonated was your wife saying that part of her still loved her AP, just not the same as she loved you. I got a bit of that, too - and my FWH took almost 9 months to finally close the door on their affair. He broke no contact a few times (luckily, she lives several states away, so it was always by phone, text message or email), tried to tell me he was just making sure she was okay, blah blah blah. But after the first 9 months when I was very clear if I found any more contact I was leaving, he shut her out of his life and I have never found anything to make me think otherwise. Now, 4 years after D-Day, he could care less about her and is our marriage is closer and sweeter than it has been in many years. But it took a long time for him to change. If I didn't have all the years invested in us I don't know if I would have been willing to give him that much time to forget about her.

At any rate, if you feel your wife is worth waiting for, and if she is being honest about truly loving you, (even if you aren't a Jaguar), it can work. But it takes a lot of patience and pain on your part to get there.

Thanks for posting the link. I do recall your JFO thread.

One common bit of advice here for BS's is: do not try to control the outcome. Find your heart's truth.

From your first post here, you have been trying to control the outcome. Your express goal has been to remain married. Since then, my impression is that, no matter what, you are determined to twist yourself into a pretzel and distort your emotions, no matter how much it takes, to accomplish this end.

Everybody is of course free to heal or live as he or she wishes. The way in which you have tried to control the outcome -- no, to force a specific outcome -- to me seems backward and threatens to backfire on you. But I don't know you, nor your WW, nor your circumstances. Maybe it works for you.

I hate seeing these kind of posts.

You seem like a really good guy who truly loves his wife, and wants to make it work. I agree with the others that you have to take off the rose colored glasses.

She didn’t choose you. She choose her marriage and all the things that come with it. That can be financial, keeping the family unit intact, and not wanting to be a walking cliche like the husband who leaves for the nanny, or my EX who had an affair with the guy working on our house.

If she choose you she would be a balling mess crying that she loves you and will spend the rest of her life making it up to you. Not that she loves you both equally but different. Strip away your assets, kids, finances, and ask her where the love scale is now. If it was equal before, it won’t be equal now.

As to “the fog”, I don’t doubt that in some cases there might be emotional attachment. But if my EX on DDay would have wanted me to be sympathetic to her feelings of loss from the guy who she was screwing behind my back, her crap would have been out the window.

She is getting exactly what she wants. Not having to discuss it, and getting to play the victim role.

I do wonder if like some of the others if she really has been NC with the guy.

I’m sad to say that my expectation is in two years we will see a post titled “I’m back again, it never ended”