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Just checking in.

The last few weeks have been overall good for us.

I slipped up the other night. I went out with a few girlfriends. I told BH that we would be making plans and I thought I had confirmed them with him but I never said we were for sure going out on Tuesday and the last he got from me is that we were discussing going out on Tuesday. It wasn’t until BH was on his way home from work and I asked I’m to be home by 7 because I had to leave at 7:15 that he found out I was going out.

Before going out we set the ground rules for me to constantly check in. I was good about it for most of the night until the last hour. We left the restaurant and I had put my phone away. Bc I wasn’t driving I didn’t take my phone out until I got home an hour after I had last updated him. The restaurant we went to was half a mile from where AP works. BH was understandably upset.

I couldn’t fathom what was going through his head. I couldn’t understand how he could possibly worry or think that I would see AP. I was upset with myself and so sorry that I didn’t live up to my word to constantly check in but I couldn’t imagine where his mind would go. After dday I don’t blame him at all but I also find myself adjusting to this new sensitivity and awareness I have to have.

We go on taking it day by day.

I couldn’t fathom what was going through his head. I couldn’t understand how he could possibly worry or think that I would see AP. I was upset with myself and so sorry that I didn’t live up to my word to constantly check in but I couldn’t imagine where his mind would go. After dday I don’t blame him at all but I also find myself adjusting to this new sensitivity and awareness I have to have.

The fact that you think it is OK to have any type of GNO, shows that you are, sorry to say, clueless.

What makes you think any of that is a good idea...

Listen, I have stayed off your thread for the most part, but your H, no matter what his issues are... is very close to being done.

I really don't think you understand that, or maybe you do...

I'm glad you've had a few overall good weeks. Here's my advice on your latest -

You must, must must do better with helping your BH. It doesn't have to make sense to you at first. Just do what he says he needs, assume that what he requests is perfectly rational and reasonable, try to understand his POV, and it will begin to make sense to you. Later, if you come to believe his response is reasonable and you understand it, you may be able to predict and head off his worries before they happen (which would be great for him). But until then, if you are out, set an alarm on your phone to check in with him every 30 minutes or whatever the time is. It's helpful to make sure the check in is FUN and doesn't make him feel like he's policing you. Send a smiley photo for a checkin, or I love being away from you because then I get to come home to you, or something other than 10:30pm, check, one more hour.

Also, I think next time there's confusion, if he wants you to stay home, it's a big statement that he is a priority if you cancel with your girlfriends to stay with him. If he genuinely doesn't mind, fine, go out with them. But if he minds even a little, who's more important? Girlfriends or him?

I know it can be hard to hear when you've screwed up, if you want to get a thumbs up feel free to also write about your progress. I've got two thumbs at the ready.

Those of us who have read your husband's thread,and yours probably can't fathom how you wouldn't understand that going to this particular place,near where the AP works, wasn't a good idea. And we can't fathom how you wouldn't understand that not communicating with your husband for that last hour was a bad idea. Your excuse,that you were NOT the one driving,so you put your phone in your purse and didn't text your husband,makes no sense. Had you been driving,that would be different.

You flat out broke the agreement.

Your husband has been very upfront about his feelings. I cant fathom that,at this point,you wouldn't understand where his mind would go. I mean..really??

[This message edited by HellFire at 5:54 PM, July 11th (Thursday)]

Well,

"I couldn’t fathom what was going through his head."

Should this sentence be taken on face value? Or, did you use it as an expression?

I can imagine this sentence be legitimately used both ways by you.

As an expression, it suggests that you are aware that given the history between you two, and the current status of your relationship with your husband, you are aware of, and giving acknowledgment to the awareness that the husband you betrayed was likely experiencing some anxiety that was associated with this situation. It doesn't really take much effort or imagination to rapidly experience a rapid train of fleeting images and scenarios of intertwined affair partners doing a wide variety of activities with each other.

To the contrary, to assume anything else seems to take a certain degree of intentional effort. Which, probably needs to be examined closer.

Hmmmm... it occurs to me, this phrase, on some levels, is a type of subtle, or not so subtle gaslighting?

[This message edited by QuietDan at 8:21 PM, July 11th (Thursday)]

I can't remember how far out from dday you are, but at about 6 months, my WH did something similar. He offered to host a meeting at his office. He did 95% of his "dirty work" related to the A at the office, and was well aware him just being there was hard for me. Plus, the group having the meeting is usually all women. I was PO'd that he did it w/o talking to me first (and told him so). WH told me the same day (or day before) and couldn't find another place to hold the mtng on short notice so I said OK, as I didn't want to have a bunch of folks scrambling (I know, reeks of COD). WH says he'll be home by x time. About 30-60 min before X time, I get a text saying his phone is about to die, so he's turning it OFF (I was driving and by the time I see it, the phone is off). Then he gets home about 1-2 hours AFTER the time he said it would be over. When he came home he told me he left the mtng conf room to his office for work - which was another WTF bc he could have then charged his cell. I'm in FULL BLOWN trigger (snot crying, the whole shebang). He is dumbfounded.

I couldn’t fathom what was going through his head. I couldn’t understand how he could possibly worry or think that I would see AP.

I can tell you I was thinking of him relishing in all the female ego kibble (and I'd be kind of surprised if a BH wouldn't also have same fears during any "girls night" ). Of him fantasizing about sex with them... and ultimately about him actually having sex with one of them in his office while the meeting went on. These are - I know now - normal responses for a BS.

At the end of the day, it's a screw up. And guess what, we are human and we ALL screw up... try and learn from it and be super sensitive to how quickly our minds race down the rabbit hole. What used to be Ok is now all questioned.

As Pippin says,

You must, must must do better with helping your BH. It doesn't have to make sense to you at first. Just do what he says he needs, assume that what he requests is perfectly rational and reasonable, try to understand his POV, and it will begin to make sense to you

As a BS, I do have hope for you.. learn from it.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 9:21 PM, July 11th, 2019 (Thursday)]

Hi there Change4thebetter,

I see two possibilities here.

1) You are genuinely clueless.

2) You are feigning cluelessness.

You told him you would be making plans rather than asking him if he'd be okay with a girls night out? Please tell me that none of these girlfriends were the same ones that discovered your affair far before your BS did and kept your secret. Were they?

You chose a restaurant within walking distance of where AP works? Was there really NO other option? Did it really not occur to you that it might feel crummy to him? Even if he didn't think you would seek out AP, might you have accidentally run into him? Why would you take that risk? Did you pick that restaurant?

Are you saying that if you had been driving you would not have broken your agreement with him? How does that even follow? The phone is out of sight so you completely forget about your BS and his concerns? The visual of the phone is the only thing keeping you thinking about what he might need? If you had been driving and your phone had been out, you would have been sending him updates, using your phone, while driving?

You ask how he could possibly think that you would see AP. He didn't possibly think it for a long time until he discovered evidence for meetings with AP that you say you don't even remember.

If it's 1, you are going to have to seriously up your game.

If it's 2, you are going to have to start taking a hard look at why it's more important to you how things look than how they actually are. How the "reality" that matters is the one you can convince the people around you of, rather than the actual facts on the ground.

I was a big practitioner of #2, and I think that's why your words are setting off bells and red flags in me like crazy. I remember making statements like "I couldn't imagine that..." when I damned well could and did imagine that but if I admitted to that then doing what I wanted to do would come at a much higher cost. Much easier to manipulate people's reality and if there was any blow back ask for forgiveness instead of permission. Once you admit that you can imagine it, that you can fathom it, etc, then you have to make harder choices. Take a hard look ask yourself if that's what you're doing.

Proceed with conviction and valor.

Either way, you have a lot of work to do.

You have said your husband doesn't want you to take a polygraph, because he thinks you are such a good liar, that you will pass,even if you are lying.

After he found evidence of a pregnancy scare, and 2 sex romps, just a couple of years ago, you convince him that you forgot, then came on here and attempted to do the same.

Now you had a GNO, within walking distance of the OM, agreed to be in constant contact, and didn't hold up your end of the agreement. And you claim the reason for that is because you weren't driving,so you put your phone away and didn't text him for the last hour. And you want us to believe you had no idea he would have a problem with that, or the chosen destination for GNO. That you just couldn't fathom he wouldn't trust you,or be upset. And you are here, again, trying to convince us. Which is ridiculous, because the man wanted constant contact, so that right there was a big sign that he wasn't comfortable.

I have felt, for some time now, that a lot of your posts are you trying to convince us,like you have convinced him.

I don't think you are as good of a liar as your husband thinks you are. I believe he is in a bit of denial. And he loves you, and you have traumatized and abused him so much, that his perspective is off.

As someone said, you have an awful lot of work to do on yourself. It starts with being honest.

So... I really didn’t have to state that there will be no nights out for my WH after dday. More so as the only time he spent time with his AP after working hours it was when he went to a “work night out with the team”.

Granted my WH wasn’t going out much before the affair but the fact that he thought about it without me having to tell him was a sign that he was grasping my pain and understood my need for peace of mind and the PTSD he has inflicted on me.

I get it, you don’t know how he feels because you’re not in his shoes. My WH also cannot feel what I’m feeling and he’s probably shocked that after all that happened after dday 2 (it was very ugly and it involved the police visit to the AP’s house at one stage) I still have days of anxiety.

But bottom line I didn’t have to tell him what I needed to feel safe. Nights out are a no no. Not because your WH says so. But because YOU care about him. You care about making him feel safe.

I remember in the early days how all I needed was my WH to put his phone somewhere far away, sit next to me on the bed and tell me to sleep. He could have read a book or something. He didn’t think of it but I would have appreciated the gesture so much as I was constantly exhausted. Days out? That would have been the nail in the coffin for me.

Hi there Change4thebetter,

I see two possibilities here.

1) You are genuinely clueless.

2) You are feigning cluelessness.

I had exactly the same thought.

I will admit to having a hard time with this thread from the beginning. But after being here as long as you have and to still be confounded by what your BS is thinking when you made plans without him, near where the AP might be, and went incommunicado? Seems farfetched. I agree that there is a lot more work to do. I have to think that you knew what you were doing and continued to make the night all about you. Changing from being "me-centric" to "us-centric" is a really hard thing to do and it doesn't happen overnight. It requires consistent effort to think of the other person over and above your wants. Let's face it, GNO is a want. This is where you need to think, "Will this want benefit us as a couple or me as an individual?" And I think you know what the answer is if the want only benefits you.

C4TB, I have a hard time reading your BH’s thread because his pain and desperation are palpable to me. His writing makes clear that you’ve absolutely crushed him and his view of the world. I actually worry from time to time that he might hurt himself.

I have never met your husband, but the fact that I (hell, for that matter most people on here) seem to understand his pain better than you do is startling to me.

I hate to be so negative, but you really, really need to change and be a better spouse. Please be honest with yourself about whether you are willing and able to do that work. If not, maybe letting him go is the kindest thing you can do.

Ok I’m going to address as much as I can. The following are not excuses, just facts.

As for GNO’s- for the last two month BH and I continue our girl/guy night outs with approved people/locations. It’s something we have discussed with each other at length. They are rare but we consider them to be healthy for us as individuals and as a couple.

BH knew that I would be going out with this group of friends/coworkers and didn’t have a problem with me spending time with them. None of them know about the A or what we are going through. He knows the dynamics of this group and he knew the location we would have to go to. I first screwed up because after I initially brought it up and BH said he was ok with it my friends had still been finalizing the date/location and I never told BH when/that all the plans were finalized. This kind of failed communication is something that I had always been notorious for and it’s something I’ve worked very hard on but in this case I slipped into old habits.

As for AP’s place of work- AP started working at this bank once the A had died down almost entirely and we were speaking rarely. I never saw him at this bank and by that time we weren’t seeing each other and were speaking once a year or so. I had never full formed that connection and haven’t really associated this bank with him.

This bank has been on the Main Street of where I have lived for 26 years and I never notice it. It’s set back, I never went there and it has always blended into the background. It’s only come into the forefront since dday but there’s no way to avoid this street. We went out to eat at 7:30. I assume the bank being a bank closes at 5. I wrongfully and selfishly didn’t consider that BH would be thinking about this as a possibility. I know that I really need to work on my awareness of this location’s power as a trigger for BH.

When going out to eat there are very few other options as most of the restaurants in our town are within walking distance of this bank. I didn’t choose to specifically go near there. My friend drove me there and back. I felt that being with someone would reassure BH and to an extent it did but obviously not entirely. Having not seen the AP in almost 4 years I still find it hard to think that BH would think that I would voluntarily see him again now.

The purpose of this post was specifically to say just that. That even though things have been going well, even though we’ve both been working hard individually and as a couple and we’ve been moving along there is still so much work that I have to do and my mistake, my moment of selfishness and carelessness was just another wake up call as to how much I have to focus and continue to work and seeing again how our life has changed because of me and my actions.

I just want to say that I appreciate your concern for my BH. I know for those that follow both of our threads it’s been confusing and difficult to get a clear picture of our situation and our marriage as well as our history and the complexity our religion has added. Sometimes our story seems very unique and other times it seems par for the norm and easy to relate to others. For those that have had trouble understanding and following along I apologize for confusion from my end but I always appreciate the insight and wisdom I have gained from SI.

I think that part of the reason that I still find myself surprised by some of his triggers is because in comparison to how he was right after Dday and the first few months, he’s been doing so much better. He has done so much for himself and I have made many changes and efforts as well. I find it so impressive but bc of that I also find it so hard to remember that he’s still broken unless he distinctly says it. I’m not saying that I don’t remember- I’m saying that it would be very easy to pretend otherwise. That’s a problem of my own that I need to fix because I do realize that no matter how good he appears on the outside, the inside is still festering away because of me and my selfishness.

Unbelievable...

You are trying to Change4thebetter? Unless you actually put those words into actions immediately then you will be changing your marital status very quickly.

This opportunity to show your husband you are worthy of trust should not have happened in the first place but when it did you then fail miserably. I just cannot fathom your reasoning in arranging the GNO, in picking that location and then not communicating in that last hour.

Could you kindly explain your logic to those of us who seem to be intellectually challenged.

p.s. ok your answer crossed in the post. I am slightly less puzzled but certainly not convinced...

[This message edited by SorrowfulMoon at 7:00 PM, July 12th (Friday)]

Having not seen the AP in almost 4 years I still find it hard to think that BH would think that I would voluntarily see him again now.

This quote explains a lot. The fact that you find it hard to believe, tells me you still haven't felt the depth of his emotional fracture. It comes in the form of paranoia, insecurity, uncertainty and more. I don't doubt that you love him, but aren't recognizing where he is.

If your consciousness was aligned with his pain points, you would take into consideration the fact that DD was six months ago, and uncertainty on the length of it is still in question and therefor he's still sensitized. You have to know this.

I actually find it hard to believe that you find it hard to believe he wouldn't still be haunted at the possibility of you scheming to see your AP conveniently, not necessarily purposely. Note the difference here, and understand this what your husband may be thinking.

Your motives could be as simple as wanting to see him trying to get your attention from across the bar, and you ignoring him, or him knifing through a dozen people to greet you and slip you his number in your hand or purse. Validation and being pursued surfaces in many ways.

See, your husband is skeptical of the word voluntary, because you could also involuntarily aim to "mistakenly" run into him, knowing his office is nearby. Who would ever think you did it purposely when your girlfriends chose the venue and the setup was perfect for making it appear not purposeful.

It's unreasonable for you to think he's 100% secure in your relationship when after just six months since discovery and new info turning up within the last month. You have to remember, he discovered it and he's the one that had to pry info out of you, so he's not quite the poster child of confidence. A betrayed spouse in the early stage of recovery is not one to think you'd avoid being in your AP's presence, even if it was by happenstance.

Your husband is a LONG ways off from being secure and feeling safe with you. He wants to be with you, and willing to take significant risks to do so. Situations like this chips away at the confidence he trying to attain, but your thoughts of thinking he's beyond thinking you'd attempt to be with AP, threatens the confidence you want him to have in you and that he wants to have with you.

Hi again Change4thebetter,

Thank you for clarifying. Here is the place you're going to need to do some work:

Having not seen the AP in almost 4 years I still find it hard to think that BH would think that I would voluntarily see him again now.

You are looking at it entirely from your perspective. You haven't seen AP in four years. He just found out about your sex with AP about 2 months ago. Repeat. As far as your BS's nervous system is concerned, it happened 2 months ago. This is what is meant when people say that each new disclosure sets the healing clock back to Day 0. That's why this

The last few weeks have been overall good for us.

could probably more be accurately stated that the last few weeks have been overall good for you. It's likely that what appears as "good" on the outside for him is him barely holding it together on the inside. I remember thinking that a good day was one where we did not have a blow up or he did not completely crash emotionally (on the outside) and days when the affair didn't come up at all, those I thought were great days. I wouldn't want to bring up the affair, or rock the boat. I finally learned that a great day for him was one where he didn't have to be the one to bring it up, one where I acknowledged and even anticipated his triggers, and I could engage with him on hard topics without getting defensive.

You will need to be able to support him this way for years to come. The affair might be far in the distance of your rear view mirror but I guarantee it's riding his bumper all the time and will be for a long time. If you want to be in this marriage with him, you will have to adjust accordingly.

I was never much of a GNO person but about 6 years after D-day my brother and his wife came to visit and what started out as a plan for me to go to brunch with them turned into, after a series of logistical mishaps, me getting home at about 2 am after spending hours with them in their RV just visiting and drinking pretty heavily. That whole time I did not contact BS. Why should I, I thought, it was SIX years after D-day and I was with family. BS was working overnights then and when he got home the next morning he was really steamed. Me changing plans, dropping off the radar and then showing up at home like he had nothing to be concerned about was a huge trigger for him. It wasn't where I was, it wasn't who I was with, it was the behavior that triggered him and he was further triggered when I got defensive. I remember coming here on SI and writing an indignant post about how unreasonable he was being and people here set me straight.

It takes a long time to rewire your brain. Many, many iterations of making a different choice than the first impulse. You have a lot of work ahead of you, but that works gets done one decision at a time.

Proceed with conviction and valor.

You are looking at it entirely from your perspective. You haven't seen AP in four years. He just found out about your sex with AP about 2 months ago. Repeat. As far as your BS's nervous system is concerned, it happened 2 months ago.

In the mind of many of us BS's - the affair ends when the lies stop. This can even be long after Dday in many cases. Why? Lies make the AP and the affair more important than the BS. It feels like the WS isn't want to tell everything because they want their memories to remain pristine and cherished - a sort of emotional affair even without contact.

We want our lives back, and while the WS holds back information we have no control and cannot make good decisions because we don't know everything. To steal someones self determination is IMO abuse. As long as that continues, you are placing the affair and the AP ahead of your BS.

The WS may believe the affair ended 4 years ago, but for the BS the affair ended just 2 weeks ago - or is still going on because some information remains unknown.

My WW did something similar - lunch with a GF in a building where OM worked. I of course got the 'oh, he never goes there' line - I didn't believe her, and to this day I wonder if WW secretly hoped to see him there. I forgave that one, but from then on, ONE more violation and she knows I will file for divorce. This is serious stuff - if you want to save your marriage you should think long and hard about this and make certain to never attend any activity where OM might appear or where a friend of OM might attend.

[This message edited by nightmare01 at 1:48 AM, July 13th (Saturday)]

^^^^^^ this.

And this is spot on for me (too bad WH doesn’t seem to understand):

It's likely that what appears as "good" on the outside for him is him barely holding it together on the inside.

I remember thinking that a good day was one where we did not have a blow up or he did not completely crash emotionally (on the outside) and days when the affair didn't come up at all, those I thought were great days. I wouldn't want to bring up the affair, or rock the boat.

I finally learned that a great day for him was one where he didn't have to be the one to bring it up, one where I acknowledged and even anticipated his triggers, and I could engage with him on hard topics without getting defensive.

.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 9:21 AM, July 13th, 2019 (Saturday)]

Kudos for admitting to miss steps in the check in. By appearances,the admission of errors is one of the most difficult tasks that we face. In conjuction with that admission, the task of accepting constructive criticism or guidance is just as difficult, if not more so.

I can not speak for all BS, however, there is sn incredibly strong trend through the posts of a desire, a need, to be understood.

Please consider -

One of the most difficult tasks for a BS is to reconcile the timing of the affair and their own personal history. To you, yes, it is over. You have not seen the AP in 4 years. Your BS is 3.5 years behind you! That is 3.5 years you have had in order to come to some terms with your actions and the past.

He is just beginning his trip. At 6 months out he is still in emotional shock, wondering who he is married to, how long your affair actually was, what of his life with you is and is not a lie, while attempting to function at work and home without breaking. While he may not say it, I can guarantee he is processing almost every minute of every day in some way shape or form. It took more than a year and a day at Disney with the kids to keep my mind clear for a few hours the first time.

He is still hypervigilant and will see everything you do through a lens of and affair. Honestly, it does not matter if you are with friends that he approves of, the pope, or the dahlia lama. It does not matter if you are in a nunnery, an isolation cell or on top of Everest. If you are away, there will be apprehension.

Lastly, the big one - the male ego and our training by society at large. We are to stand tall, strong, emotional rocks that do not bleed, cry, or scream when injured. We are trained to be implacable, relentless, task driven goal seeking machines who would willing take the spears and arrows of life without a change of facial expression and die on our armor, on top of our white charger...

than show our vulnerability.

Please do not be fooled by his exterior. Inside that armor, that knight, that man, is screaming. He will scream until he is exhausted and his will to do has run out. Considering how we are trained, how long will that be for your husband?

To build, the second year, often is not discussed in the forums. There is an exhaustion that takes place, along with more processing. Please, read and learn so that you may see what is most likely in your future and why it is so important that you over come this time gap.

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=621022&HL=56933