SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hi Neanderthal,

I hope that your counseling session goes well this evening.

When I see her in person, all I see is an empty shell. Literally no emotion most of the time. I look in her eyes and see nothing. No remorse, no anger, no sadness, no fear. Just nothing. She's never been very emotional but this is on another level.

I found the comment about your wife's lack of emotion revealing, because what has struck me in her posts is that they are not very emotional. There were a couple of times when I thought, "Is she faking this? Does she actually 'feel' this?"

Now you mention emotional detachment being a long-term part of her persona, it puts the lack of emotion in her posts in a different light.

Do you think that your wife might be a little autistic? That can sometimes manifest itself in what appears to be emotional blankness.

The trouble with people not showing a lot on the surface is that they can become like a blank chalkboard onto which we can write anything, depending on how we are feeling at the time.

"I know he loves me. He never says it, but I know it. I can tell".

"She's a really deep thinker. Never says much, but I know she's thinking on a whole other plain to most people".

Or, if something bad has happened, a lack of emotional demonstration can appear to be a lack of care or concern.

It is very hard to tell what is going on inside impassive people, and that can be frustrating, so we project feelings onto them to fill the empty space.

We need to be careful about that, to avoid creating something that is not there. That can go both ways, good and bad.

Sometimes people who are not good at expressing themselves emotionally in person can do it better in writing. The trouble is, the lack of emotionalism in person can make us think that their words are not heartfelt or genuine. That is not always the case.

It is possible that if your wife grew up in a family where expressions of emotion were viewed negatively, she may have an aversion to opening up about herself, and lack the confidence to do it.

Personally, I think that burying emotions is very unhealthy, but I have known families where discussion of anything emotional was taboo. Uncle Charlie killed himself? It was never mentioned. Sister-in-law Louise regularly beat the crap out of her husband with a frying pan? It was never spoken of.

What those people tend to do at a time of crisis is become even more buttoned up and undemonstrative, and I think that may be what is happening with your wife.

She may have withdrawn into herself, and not know how to express troubled emotions. She may even be in a state of shock as the reality of the current situation grows for her.

If she is a little autistic, she may find emotions hard to process, whether they are her own or other peoples'.

So please do not rush to judgement because your wife seems emotionally withdrawn. It is hard for you, because you want her to be more demonstrative, and 'prove' that she feels things by showing them on the surface. A lack of demonstrativeness does not mean she is not feeling things, just that she is not showing them. Which, going by what you say, has always been a characteristic of hers.

The flipside of that coin is that there have been a string of waywards in these forums who have put on Oscar-winning performances of remorse and new-found honesty. Some go as far as swearing on the lives of their children that an affair is over, they will never cheat again, yada yada yada. And it turns out to be nothing more than play-acting.

I am hopeful that your wife may address that in her individual counseling. I am sure that her emotional repression has played a part in creating a communications gap between you.

It seems like that gap has contributed to times where you have been out of synch with one another in the relationship. The trouble is, when you live with someone who is not good at expressing their feelings, it can be hard to 'read' them and know when they have a problem with something.

And people not good at expressing themselves can say 'yes' to things and appear to be fine with them when in reality they are not happy or have all kinds of misgivings that they are not expressing. So you can end up unintentionally hurting them because you just did not know how they really felt.

It is always much easier if someone speaks up and says, "I'm really not okay with that" when something is suggested.

Much has been made about the incident at the drunken swinging party where your wife got upset about you being with the other woman. What really caused the problem was not what you did, but the fact that you and your wife had not talked through the rules and boundaries beforehand.

From what I know of the world of swinging, polyamory, wife-swapping, etc, (as an outsider) is that mutually agreed rules are absolutely essential to make them work without people getting hurt. As is complete openness and honesty about all interactions with other people.

If couples venture into those worlds without having worked out their rules beforehand, someone is bound to be hurt because an unmentioned boundary is 100% guaranteed to be crossed.

In your case, you only found out that your wife did not want you to have sex with other women when it happened, and by then, it was too late.

It's all about communication, isn't it?

Perhaps that is why ChamomileTea's post struck such a cord with me.

I think you should bring your WW home and that you should work it out in MC.

Typically, I'd say IC before MC, but clearly you two need help with communication. You love her, she loves you, you BOTH appear to want R. But you seem to be talking AT each other rather than TO each other, and a good MC can help you both establish a better relational skill set.

It doesn't look like either one of you had appropriate boundaries, certainly not boundaries in keeping with what your true beliefs turned out to be. So, before you throw away something you value, I'd advise you BOTH to "turn in" to each other rather than away.

Read everything by John Gottman you can get your hands on. There's no right or wrong way to recover from infidelity. It's all just a matter of both people getting their character in line with their true values, being on the same page about those values, and respecting each other's agency.

You may still feel too raw to let your wife come home for the moment, but I think what ChamomileTea has written is absolute gold. Please do consider using it as a plan; it is really good insight and advice.

Take care, Neanderthal. We all want the best fro you.

[This message edited by M1965 at 3:22 PM, August 6th (Tuesday)]

Look man. This is topic that brings out a lot of primal reactions to people. I am not going to even begin to try and defend it.

Right now I am very worried about you. You seem to be doing what you need to do and that is good. Further the numbness you feel is likely shock and will pass.

Keep up with therapy. It is really one of the few things that might help you.

No matter the past of who did what to who and when, your M is in crisis and it will be for a long time. You feel what you feel and no one should be telling how to feel any different. The score keeping suggestions is just . . .plain. . .no.

Right now you don't need to make any decisions. I have no not read your W post as I read your first and responded. I try not to let the details muddy the advice I give here.

I know you said that you did not want to talk to your W, right now and I completely understand why. At some point you will need to talk to her.

This is not something you will forget even if you wanted to. Giving someone a chance to atone for what they've done isn't letting them get away with it. Redemption can be a very powerful motivator.

You feel like your lost your best friend. I can tell you it is possible to get that back. There are those of us that not only survived, but thrived after infidelity. It is possible. Just putting that out there to hopefully help you see that the pain you are in does not last forever. One way or another it can get better.

You taken the right steps thus far. Keep going.

Hi N;

First of all, you should DNA-test you daughter and ask for a post-nup (this should be a priority).

Just so you know, you didn't cheat on your wife (period). Both of you agreed with and enjoyed the 'swinging'.

You did horrible pointing your wife towards this site btw; she's basically doing everything said here without any spontaneity (she's only faking).

To add; there's something that S.I gets wrong - Female infidelity is pure evil and a crime (such thing doesn't even compare at cases when the male cheats).

When a woman commits infidelity she puts her husband at a place where he could be the victim of paternity fraud (This is a crime, pure evil and far worse than rape).

You can and should get out of this marriage (and you'll absoltely have the moral high ground in doing so).

Furthermore, there are a lot of men here who feel inferior when a new user decides to divorce straigh-away - they feel emasculated and ifenrior when such thing happens. Don't bother with them.

This happened to users Like 'SpaceGhost' and another one that I don't remember the name ( he was in the navy a think) - they suffered enormous rage cuz they opted for divorce as their first choice.

Go for divorce and stick with it if that's what you want.

Your wife is just faking (that why you see the void of emotions).

Btw, your priority should still be the DNA test of your daughter (and a post-nup).

~~

[This message edited by Matheus at 4:47 PM, August 6th (Tuesday)]

Interesting first post. You managed to minimize the pain a betrayed wife feels, belittle a betrayed wife's pain, and minimize the enormous violation and trauma of rape(ignorant comment, BTW. Have you ever been raped?).

I do,however, agree,OP, that a DNA test is needed. Being on this site, I've come to believe that a DNA test should be standard at birth. I would never minimize the horrific position any BH is in, not knowing if their child is their child. I also would never minimize a betrayed husband's pain,by saying it's worse for a betrayed wife. Both are devastating.

Pain is pain. This isn't a contest.

@HellFire

I'm in no way minimizing a BW's pain, rather than that, I'm magnifying the pain of a BH.

Women are more powerful than men from a biological viewpoint.

The consequences for infidelity are different when you have that in mind.

People who disagree with that are delusional - is the same as saying that all women have the same physical strenght as men.

I'm not saying that cuz I'm bias and can relate more to men; I coming from a different place.

A place when I do recognize that my sex is inferior to women when it comes to many, many things.

There are a minority of men that are more sucessfull than the majority of men and women - so humans tend to think that you have some sort of advantage by being male.

Women are superior in regards to relationship dynamics, sex and etc...that's why they were 'nerfed' - shamed (called sluts and so on) - cuz they were/are more powerful.

Never been raped, But I'd willing be gang-raped 12 hours straigh for 10 years (if I'm to choose).

Rather kill myself than raise a child that is the product of an affair.

When a woman commits infidelity she puts her husband at a place where he could be the victim of paternity fraud (This is a crime, pure evil and far worse than rape).

Holy Hell, what the fuck did I just read???

You have no clue what ANYONE goes through when it comes to rape...and rape does not happen strictly to women either. This can be children or men.

Sorry for the t/j but this comment is insane.

Neanderthal,

You have received a lot of good advice with the posters here. Please ignore the bad with the good.

I don't think you need to make any decisions yet as far as for the fate of your marriage. IC first, taking care of your daughter and go from there.

You will have to talk to your wife eventually but there is no rush at this moment.

That's your opinion, and your perspective.

You are not a woman,so you have no idea how it feels to be a BW. None.

And,please stop with the rape comments. You have no clue. I work with rape victims, and your attitude towards rape is appalling, destructive, and so very inappropriate.

Trying really, really hard here to formulate a response that doesn’t violate at least three fucking guidelines.....

Nope, can’t do it.

Also, I feel bad that Neanderthal’s thread keeps getting threadjacked and sidetracked with unrelated and unhelpful bullshit. So I’m just going to suggest that, no matter how hard it is to resist the feeding the trolls, let’s all take a breath and try our best.

Alright everyone, breath in..... and out....

Repeat as needed and carry on.

HT

First of all, you should DNA-test you daughter

She is my daughter, regardless of what the DNA says. Even if she wasn't my biological daughter, i wouldn't want to know. I love her as my own, and i will continue to do so. I have no doubt in my mind that she is my child.

Matheus

Please do not post in my forum again. thank you. I'm not sure if i'm allowed to ask that. Admins?

Do you think that your wife might be a little autistic?

I've never considered it. Ill talk to my FIL about it. I don't think she is though.

In your case, you only found out that your wife did not want you to have sex with other women when it happened, and by then, it was too late

I knew the rules, its was discussed. I wasn't supposed to be with another woman. I fucked up royally.

I'd advise you BOTH to "turn in" to each other rather than away

Maybe some day, but not today. Obviously our communication skills aren't good.

I gotta force myself to eat. I partially collapsed at work today.

Counseling just doesn't feel right today. She wants to talk about my childhood. Trust me i've got plenty there to talk about, but it doesn't seem important right now. I may try someone else.

PM for you Matheus

Chin up

[This message edited by HellFire at 9:34 PM, August 6th (Tuesday)]

Your wife is reading your thread,still

I figured she would be. I'll admit it's been very difficult to not read hers.

Hellfire, I see you edited your post.

It's possible it's a coincidence. We went to "meet the teacher night". Our daughter starts kindergarten tomorrow. Today was hard, new school my child wasn't supposed to be attending, and my WS and I pretending there wasn't a STD elephant in the room. As we walked away from each other afterwards to go to our separate cars, I started to get emotional. I asked her if she feels any of this. Then I left. Afterwards she sent me an email. I still haven't read it.

Tomorrow we will walk out daughter into the first day of kindergarten. A very happy, and truly sad day it will be.

66 charger,

I did not see what you posted before it was deleted. I guess add that to the list of things I'm in the dark about. I understand you think of me as trash, you probably view me as worse than your wife's AP. If it helps any. I feel the same way.

No I don't. And had you read what I edited out, you would know it is just the opposite. You are 100% wrong about the torture you are inflicting upon yourself.

The mods were right. I read her side and my first post were reflected in that. And so was my last. That's why rules are put in place.

Your gut on the emotions are correct. Sorry, I do not believe this marriage should be saved.

[This message edited by 66charger at 11:34 PM, August 6th (Tuesday)]

Hey Neanderthal. I've read this thread but didn't feel compelled to say anything until now. That last line of your last comment really hit home for me. I'm over three years out from DDay, divorced, and have a daughter who was close in age to yours on DDay. School events are hard. They're just about the only time I see my exWW face to face for more than a few moments and I hate that days that should be able to just be about my daughter's milestones and accomplishments are tainted by all the horrible choices my exWW made. I don't really have advice for how to best handle your daughter's first day of kindergarten since you're undecided on what you want to do about your WW, but however you go about it I hope you're able to find some joy in it and be happy for your daughter.

I won't speculate about where your wife is at emotionally and mentally. I'm aware that she has a thread but I no longer put much stock in what all but a few waywards on this website have to say as far too many have come through even during the relatively brief time I've been here who made a big show of saying the right things and seeming to "get it" only for it to later be revealed that they're still lying about things, still not owning up and taking responsibility, and in some cases still cheating. For your sake I hope your WW isn't one such person, but whether she is or not there's still plenty you can do for yourself. For starters, you can make sure you're staying hydrated and eating enough. Do your best to make sure you're getting at least some sleep. Focus on kicking ass at being a dad. I was deep in my own pain and rage for months after DDay and I was a shit father during that time. It was absolutely the worst time for me to screw up in that department too because it was when my daughter needed me most. Do better than I did.

Last thing, don't blame yourself for your WW's choice to have an affair. You can and should accept responsibility for whatever your shortcomings were in your marriage pre-affair, but the affair was her choice and hers alone. You didn't make her cheat, you didn't drive her into the arms of another man, that's all bullshit. There was a BW here who made a thread a while back in which she blamed herself for her WH's affair. She admitted that for years before he cheated, she was verbally and physically abusive, she neglected him, she put many other people before him, you get the idea. Basically, she was a shit excuse for a wife. And yet he didn't leave. Why he didn't, I don't know, but what I do know is that he was an adult with a functioning brain who always had the power to say that enough was enough and that he was leaving. Instead, he chose to cheat. That's on him and only on him. The two issues, her being an abuser and him being an adulterer, are separate and need to be treated as such. The same goes for you and your wife. You certainly failed in some big ways in the past, but your wife chose to stay. Then she chose to have an affair. That's on her and she needs to figure out why she made those choices. Taking the blame for them, even in part, muddies the waters and gives her an excuse to avoid some of the much-needed introspection and self-improvement she's going to need to engage in if she's ever going to be a safe partner for you or anyone else going forward.

Hi N;

I don't think you feel this way; a DNA-test would not require that strong of a reply from you (if that was the case).

Would you want to know about you wife's infidelity,would you not?

I think the truth should come out to light regardless of feelings and that boundaries should be there always (regardless of the situation).

I won't comment here(on your topic) anymore if that's what you want - honestly I don't want to either.

I wished I could push you towards divorce (since you were more likely to take this way out) but I failed.

There is a case of a man who discovered that 'his' child was not his after X years, he didn't want to have nothing to do with the kid anymore and was proccessing his ex-wife for all the money he spent with the girl/boy.

By all means, I don't judge him, and I won't judge you if you feel the same way as he does.

Most members here are all about reconciliation (this holds true specially knowing your wife is here on this site too) - I'm all about divorce.

Bye bye,

Juntos e shallow now~~

[This message edited by Matheus at 10:38 AM, August 7th (Wednesday)]

Counseling just doesn't feel right today. She wants to talk about my childhood. Trust me i've got plenty there to talk about, but it doesn't seem important right now. I may try someone else.

Feel free to find another IC. You need to have a rapport with your therapist. You will telling them things that you wouldn't tell anyone else so it is important that you are comfortable.

The childhood questions are pretty standard at the beginning. A good IC wants to get a good understanding where some things started. You'd be amazed at how one thing you are dealing with today is deeply rooted in something your experienced as a child.

As an abuse survivor myself there were a lot of things that needed to be addressed before my IC and I both could understand how that shaped my reaction to my Ws betrayal.

FWIW. I think you should read letter or better yet bring it to IC and discuss whether or not you should read it.

I asked her if she feels any of this.

Is that the real question you wanted to ask her or was it an attempt to remind her of the situation she caused? I'd only ask questions that you want the answer to and can handle. Right now too much is going to send you over the edge.

One foot in front of the other is all you can do right now. Exercise helped keep me sane. Melatonin supplements helped me sleep better. Eating healthy and staying hydrated seemed to help a little too.

Please keep posting. Just letting it out here is better than keeping it bottled.

Take what you need and leave the rest as the saying goes. Based on what you've shared it is hard to tell if your W is really regretting her choices or just going through the emotions to try and get to a "rugsweeping" point.

We are always here and are willing to listen.

Hey Neantherdal.

I felt that on average you were getting mixed but generally good advice and then a couple of posts were made that brought the level of stoopid so low that these posts managed to pull the average down…

I have skimmed your WW thread but neither contributed there nor read it in the depth I try to before commenting. This is purely based on what you have shared.

First: Be clear that you can reconcile, or you can divorce. Both options are open for you and both options build on what you and your wife chose to do. Of the two divorce is the only unilateral action you can take. Your WW doesn’t have to agree to a divorce in order for you to divorce her nor do you two have to agree on how to divorce. A divorce is basically a business transaction that can be completed using regulations, law and precedent. Even if you wanted to keep the house and she wanted to keep your fishing-rods neither is a given and eventually a judge would decide on the correct result. Irrespective of your wishes.

Reconciliation is different. It requires immense teamwork as well as immense self-searching and self-work. If you told your WW you wanted to reconcile, and she agreed there isn’t really a guarantee that you both understand the word the concept the same way. It’s tough – but IMHO if done properly will always at a minimum lead to YOU being a better person. If it has the same effects on your wife and on your marriage… well… happy days!

I think it’s very important to understand to the best of one’s abilities what the two solutions really mean:

R is so much more than getting over the affair. In fact, it’s not really about that at all. It’s more focused on you maybe looking at your wife +5 years down the line and thinking “thank God I gave this marriage a chance, despite her affair” and your wife looking at you and thinking “thank God he gave me a chance despite the affair”. Since R is tough work and takes TIME it’s really a valid proposition to stop for good time and really consider if this woman is the one you want to spend your life with.

To me marriage is a very important relationship. Possibly the most important contract you willingly make. Right now – if (God forbid) your wife had an accident and was in a life-support assisted coma… it would be YOU that had to decide how far and how long her treatment should be. Same the other way around… If I was in a coma I would hope my wife’s decision was based on LOVE and KNOWING what I want, rather than her seeing this as an acceptable and respectable path out of a miserable marriage. When I entered my marriage, I married for life. Of course, things can change, and infidelity is definitely one of the biggest (maybe the biggest) things that can change the basis for a marriage. I am definitely not against divorce, but I do think that one needs to be 100% certain it’s what you want and that you truly understand why it’s what you want.

Thinking you can’t forgive her is definitely a valid reason for divorce because a future marriage based on resentment isn’t really a great idea. But be clear on why you can’t forgive her and understand what forgiveness means. IF you reconcile then I hope you never forgive her affair as in implying it was OK. But I would hope that it no longer becomes a major factor in your interactions with her. It definitely will be for the next couple of years, but if you decide to R and do so seriously that will demise.

Then there is the other option: To divorce.

It’s a great option IMHO. Research shows that about 90% are content and happy 24 months after a d is finalized. That’s also in line with theories on how long it takes to recover from major traumas. It’s the period of intense grieving after the death of a loved one, the time it takes to realize if R is working or not, the time it takes to gain confidence after losing a job… Traditionally it’s also the respectable grieving period before a widow could remarry…

But UNDERSTAND and ACCEPT what divorce is.

It’s the termination of a relationship – not an alternative relationship.

You will not keep the house and the wife leave with nothing. There will be an equal distribution of debts and assets. You won’t keep your pension and she won’t get all of it. At the end of the process you can groan and moan, but the division of debt and assets will be close to 50/50. There is no bias. The law is blind.

To me it’s an OK solution: There are reasons for why distribution is like it is, and you have plenty of time to recuperate and recover.

One of the more common misunderstandings in divorce is when you remain involved in your ex’s life. Go to the divorce forum. See the number of posters with opinions on their exes BF or GF, how they interact with children and so on. Divorce is the termination of your rights to be involved in her life, just as she can’t be involved in your life. It’s he base you start rebuilding YOUR life.

With luck and common sense, you remain amicable and good co-parents. But you won’t be spending Thanksgiving together. She won’t come over to iron your shirts and you won’t be cleaning her drains. Chances are that 5 years from now your interactions will be minimal and only concerning parenting.

And that’s FINE. The benefit of divorce is this detachment YOU get.

One think to keep in mind is this: If you decide to divorce do so because YOU want it, not as a means to get revenge or to punish your wife. It would be terrible for you to be miserable 3-4 years from now because you still think you could have worked things out, but your pride stood in your way.

I hope you get the difference between these two options and the work and emotional cost of both.

Do you need to decide NOW what to do?

No. Not really. One of the most common but possibly the most disputed advice offered here is the “don’t do anything for the first six months” line.

I would want to rephrase it to the more accurate but not as catchy-sounding “Don’t do anything rash, not thought out or non-reversable for the first six months”.

Doesn’t have to be 6 months… Maybe after 60 days you have a clear picture of what you want. Maybe you have it now (doesn’t sound that way though…). But the real message is to be calm and base your decisions on thought-out reasoning rather than emotional rashness. That reasoning can be (and should be) based on emotional factors, but not controlled by them. Big difference. Like when my neighbor once slapped my son I wanted to kill him (emotional response) but rather I filed a charge and eventually forced him to sell and move (rational response mainly fueled by an emotional reason (hate)).

Finally: The BIG herpes issue…

I have had to interact a lot with people in various crisis-situations…

Sometimes we use a single event or issue to justify or even place us on a better pedestal to be angry about or justify a certain issue. Like if your neighbor let’s his dog poop on your lawn, collects wrecked cars on his driveway and has band-practice with his crappy metal-band way into the night you might snap when he mows his lawn early on a Saturday morning. THAT was the event you snap on, but there were others that led you there.

Considering that over 1/6th of sexually active people have herpes then each and every time a third-party gets into the sex-life of a normally monogamous STD couple the risk of getting an STD is there. That risk was there when you two participated in swinging. That risk is ALWAYS present. Irrespective of screening, what people say or if they claim to be clean or use condoms… All that does is lower the odds from 1/6th but there always remains a risk.

I’m guessing OM didn’t tell WW that he had herpes and that his Johnson didn’t look like a lava-lamp.

Simply by having sex with the OM your wife opened up the risk of bringing in a STD. irrespective of if the OM had one or not. SHE did not know. She did not demand a recent, on-the-spot accountable STD examination.

Just like you probably didn’t when you were with that swinger…

Doesn’t have to be genital herpes. Could be oral herpes, crabs, HIV… plenty to go around.

I think the real issue with your wife and the herpes issue is not that she possibly brought a STD into the marriage. The real issue is that (a) she cheated and (b) she lied through omission.

One thing she needs to understand is that IF she wants to even have the slightest chance of reconciliation she needs to be totally truthful.

However, the problem with lying through omission is that there might be something that might matter to you that she doesn’t think about. Like MAYBE it’s a big factor for you that she wore that green dress you helped her select when she met the OM for lunch one day but for her it’s no issue.

One of the major requirements for even considering R is having the total truth. If you want that option then you might consider asking for a timeline where you list what you need to know (where, when, how and so on). That outline could be followed through with a polygraph that confirms (or refutes) her story, thereby giving you a good indication of if you have something to build on.

How did day one at your daughters kindergarten drop off go ?

[This message edited by numb&dumb at 9:17 AM, August 7th (Wednesday)]

Neanderthal,

I knew the rules, its was discussed. I wasn't supposed to be with another woman. I fucked up royally

You do realize that nothing you have done, didn't do, said or didn't say caused your WW to cheat, don't you?

If what you did was something she could not overcome then she could have ended to marriage and moved on. Just like if what she has done isn't something you can overcome you can end the marriage and move on.

Wishing you clarity as you decide on how to proceed.