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66charger:

Further cross-forum infractions will result in the loss of your posting privileges.

My intentions were to delete since I regret participating I this thread from the beginning, but you beat me to it. Withdrawn.

Hi Neanderthal

You still there? I hope so.

Look. I am not a swinger. I don’t know how it really works and what the rules are. It seems like you went beyond set boundaries to me. Whether or not that makes you a cheater is not something I truly know or understand. While I said what I believed, I am not an expert.

But that wasn’t the important part about what i wrote. I was trying to make the point that life is nuanced and not black and white. And many times we can be self centered and not consider our spouses. But that doesn’t mean that what you did meant you deserved what she did. You didn’t deserve that.

I was trying to point out was that I believe you are a good person no matter what happened between you and your wife back then.

And believe it or not, while I think the last year your wife has been lost and selfish and hurtful, I do think she’s a good person still too. And one that deserves a chance.

I think she’s trying. Some of our most referenced Remorseful WS’s here started out after DDay, very rocky. But they had one thing in common, a knowledge that they had fucked up their lives and a desire to fix what they had done.

They didn’t know how exactly. It took a long time to learn, but they had the right frame of mind. It’s early, but I’d bet that your wife has this.

There is no time requirement here. You can follow the D path as long as you like. But I’d hope, for your daughters sake (yep I went there), that you’ll at least give her mom a chance to win your heart back.

I hope you can consider what I wrote and not focus so much on what i said about Cheating. That wasn’t important to me. It doesn’t make me think less of you. It just makes me realize you are human.

So is your WW.

If you love her I personally hope you will work with her. Slowly, thru IC and discussions. First goal is to work on yourselves thru therapy. A good therapist is worth their weight in gold. So start there.

But it’s not my call. I’m sorry if none of this is helping. It’s all perspectives from anonymous people who have experience but don’t know you. So take what works, drop the rest of it in the garbage.

Let me or anyone here know if we can answer any questions.

Thinking of you....

[This message edited by Stevesn at 12:05 AM, August 6th (Tuesday)]

I couldn’t disagree with this more, I believe a great disservice has been done to you by putting that in your head. JMO

I agree and I think kicking a person when they are down after experiencing such a great trauma is potentially dangerous.

I'm concerned about your spiraling, Neanderthal. Please reach out to friends and family for support. Get an IC. If at any point you feel like leaving everything is an option because you think your wife and kids would be better off with out you, it's not true in the slightest. Check in to a hospital. Call the National Help Line. They need you and your WW does not believe for one second that you are a terrible cheater and an abusive husband despite your past issues.

I do have experience with open marriages in particular because I'm from a culture where they are commonplace. The difference between swinging/open and infidelity is honesty and transparency. Infidelity still happens in open relationships because it has nothing to do with what happens consensually with others. Some of these people only have to be open and upfront about what they're doing and guess what? THEY CAN'T DO IT! Even when there are zero consequences to being honest and many consequences for lying.

Neanderthal, you crossed a boundary and your WW dealt with it immediately. You did not lie and hide for 6 months. You didn't try to gaslight her into believing she didn't see what she saw. You took responsibility and you never did it again. You're not on the same level as her by any stretch of the imagination. Even if you would be considered a MH, you would be a reformed one. But many here and your WW do not consider you one so please, forgive yourself.

Yes, you played with fire, yes you got burned. Lesson learned. Have you taken ownership of this? Did you own it or did you blame alcahol? Did you apologize? Did you deal with it or rug sweep it?

You were alcaholic and verbally abusive. She was your whipping boy. The question is why. There are a thousand ways to deal with stress. What made that ok? Did you get help? Did you apologize..profusely? Do I see this as a reason to cheat, no. But it's certainly grounds for divorce. If you didn't apologize, you need to.

I did apologize, but I did make excuses. I also got some help and quit drinking. Yes we rug swept.

And that you are both willing to do the work to get there.

Right now I don't feel you are willing. And I can’t yet figure out why

The cloud of an STD isn't helping.

I understand you SI members are also reading her forum (I have not). I'm guessing you see what she is typing as showing remorse, wanting to make it work. Reading the books recommended. Believing she is a good candidate for R.

Right now I'm not seeing that. Not at all. When I see her in person, all I see is an empty shell. Literally no emotion most of the time. I look in her eyes and see nothing. No remorse, no anger, no sadness, no fear. Just nothing. She's never been very emotional but this is on another level.

I went with her to speak with her bosses. She told them she was resigning since they wouldn't/couldn't transfer her. I went to make sure she did he right thing. I don't believe she would have quit if I wasn't there. I understand I should have let her do this on her own, to show me what matters. But the thought of her going back to that school, knowing full well the AP's wife didn't want her there....I just couldn't let that happen. The other BS deserves a little peace.

66 charger,

I did not see what you posted before it was deleted. I guess add that to the list of things I'm in the dark about. I understand you think of me as trash, you probably view me as worse than your wife's AP. If it helps any. I feel the same way.

I was going to take a few days away from here. But I guess I couldn't, I don't really have anything else.

I've also gotten some pretty interesting PM's. I was told to suck it up. you touched a vagina, she touched a dick. Get over it and let her back in your life.

I can only imagine what my wife is hearing.

There have been some good messages as well. Thank you to those people.

The advice here seems to swing so widely its hard to understand what's best. Early on I was supposed to Hard 180 and I started to do that. Now that people know my back story, and have read hers. It seems I should feel lucky and grateful she still appears to want me, and work towards that.

If I attempt at R it will definitely be because of my daughter. I've started reading Divorce Busting by Michelle Davis.

After the principle meeting, I did apologize to cheating on her all those years ago. She said she's written some things down and wants to share them with me. I told her I'm not ready.

She told me a few things during the timeline that seemed trivial at the time, but are really hurting me know. He would meet her at the grocery store local to us, and shop with her. Keep her company. On Sundays, she would say she needed her alone time, that's when she would grocery shop, go to target, and apparently meet him.

I cant even go into that store right now. All I see is him holding her hand, or suggesting an item, or touching her back while going down the aisle.

She also told me about an encounter they had in a parking lot in her SUV. They fooled around in the back seat (probably did more). I had to help remove those back seats from her SUV yesterday, to make room for all her school stuff. She has to clear her room out. It took everything in me to not destroy them.

I'm still here, trying to make figure out how I'm supposed to better myself. I have counseling this evening, but I don't know what to talk about or ask for help with. Its supposed to be about me, but the only thing I can think about is the affair.

Its supposed to be about me, but the only thing I can think about is the affair.

This is normal.

I think I was some state of shock for several months after. You will eventually know what you need to ask for, but for now, it's the basics you need to force yourself to do. Lots of water, food and rest whenever possible -- these basics will at least get some level of energy.

I recall making myself hit the gym was helpful, hitting a boxing speed bag, lifting weights, all helped. Distractions with friends and family, anything to give your mind a break now and again.

I did some counseling early on, but even that didn't get helpful until the initial shock was over.

Start with why you feel so bad about yourself. Why do you openly want to blame yourself to keep her on a pedestal? Read your counselor a couple of your posts and some of the most thoughtful responses (M1965 and Stevesn for example) and dive right into how you are feeling. The best IC tears you up a bit but will make you feel much stronger over time.

N, a few things to consider:

Your struggles are mostly normal for a BS. Terrible, but normal. You are actually making progress. I doubt you feel like it. You probably feel stuck in an emotional and mental hell. But I can see signs of progress in your posts as time has gone by. So hang in there.

Do you have any physical hobbies or pastimes? I find physical exertion really helps clear the mind for a little while. And it is a proven stress reducer. So you get two for one. Please choose a few activities and discipline yourself to do one every single day. Even if it is only 15-30 minutes, take the time and do it. Workout. Play racquetball. Go for a fast paced walk. Something physical. It will pay off.

I liked your comments about the diversity of advice here. It is so varied it can snap your head around. I mentioned this before, but only you can decide what applies to your situation. But the problem is that when you are still in trauma, decisions are about as clear as mud. And you are still in trauma, although you are making some progress through it.

So look for principles that endure.

Divorce her, find someone better! is not a principle. You must reconcile for your kid's sake! is not a principle. So what are the principles?

The 180 is a principle. It can be adapted by you but the underlying thinking is sound and D or R neutral. Taking care of yourself, being healthy, getting counseling... all principles. Seeking legal guidance on your situation and things to be careful of. Informing the OBS. Insisting on NC. Avoiding rugsweeping at all costs. Not making big decisions when in full trauma. Looking out for your kids. All principles.

Once you are "right side up" enough, with some time, effort and healing, then you can start digging in on D or R decisions. Applying the principles will get you to that point. Make sense?

Regarding your WS and her empty shell appearance. I think that can be normal if a WS has regret and remorse. BS will say, I am the one who is suffering here! And that is true. But if you look at the wayward stories on the site you will see that a WS goes through their own little hell... if they have regret/remorse for their actions. I think you know this better than many BS because of what happened with the swinging incident. You have experienced the pain of screwing up so you know your WS is having the same thing.

And that is a major positive, by the way. Not every WS goes through this. WS without regret, remorse or if they were having an exit affair don't experience this. Instead, they rationalize everything, blame the BS, get vindictive, attack the BS, call the police on the BS, lawyer up etc etc. People like this are all over the stories here on SI. It's crazy and sick. I know this isn't going to make you feel all warm and fuzzy but the fact that you aren't getting this treatment now is a good thing. It shows your WS cares about you and the marriage, despite her horrible choices.

Think about your WS. She has told you she wants to R. You have said I don't want you to contact me. I am not ready to talk. I don't want to read your letter. I think you are seeing some fear in her empty shell. How does a WS pursue healing a BS and the marriage when the BS doesn't want to talk or even read letters? Don't get me wrong, if you aren't ready you aren't ready. That's ok. You are the BS here. But we have to be realistic and understand that this dynamic has a major impact on the WS too. At least the WS who is remorseful.

Again, you are making progress... we can see it in your posts. Hang in there, get disciplined about physical activity daily. Apply the principles here, not long term decision making advice that is offered. The burden lifts slowly but it does lift.

[This message edited by Trdd at 9:17 AM, August 6th (Tuesday)]

The advice here seems to swing so widely its hard to understand what's best.

Agreed. I think that the only thing everyone will agree upon is that you take care of yourself. Get a good therapist. No need to take everything said here so hard. We all come from different backgrounds and our approach at the time it happened to us was wildly different as well.

There is no rush to make a decision one way or another. You're still in so much turmoil. With your wife changing jobs as well. Even in divorce, a functional partnership due to your kid is desirable. Wait for a sense of normalcy to resume before committing to a decision.

Regarding polygraph, I believe it's mostly junk science and a waste of money. Highly contentious, the information provided is of little use and might not even be accurate. You won't get a full picture with it. Maybe if you could recover the messages. That was what helped me more than anything in mapping my ex-wife's affair. It's really not that scandalous. Just imagine a new couple in the initial phase of courtship. Unless she was complaining about you incessantly, that's what you'll find.

Take care.

Please see an IC. You need to forgive yourself for this. As I said before, this mentality that you're just as bad and possibly worse than your WW IS NOT what's being talked about and harped on from her perspective. These thoughts that everyone hates you and thinks you are trash ARE NOT reality no matter what a select few posters have said here or in PMs.

Right now I'm not seeing that. Not at all. When I see her in person, all I see is an empty shell. Literally no emotion most of the time. I look in her eyes and see nothing. No remorse, no anger, no sadness, no fear. Just nothing. She's never been very emotional but this is on another level.

Truthfully, it doesn't matter what we see in that thread. What matters is what you see in reality. Regardless of the past, your WW owes it to you TODAY to drive the R bus. She owes you honesty about the STD and to take ownership of her choice not to tell you. Her thread and what we get to see her is just pretty little words and in R, words aren't important. ACTIONS are what matter. If you're not seeing the actions, she can say all the pretty little words she wants but your decisions should be based on what she is DOING. Not what she is saying.

Hi N,

New to your thread but have been following since being back from my trip,

I'm not here to give many words of wisdom for you as I didn't & still don't really have any for myself after 5 months, although I do feel lots better than I did.

1, please take what you need & leave the rest,

you are the 1 going through this traumatic experience (not any of us)

your the only 1 that knows first hand whats happening in your life!

2, like Nek said in the above post,

words are not enough in your situation, you have to go by ACTIONS,

when you have trust words are enough but when that trust is broken you have to see ACTIONS, Without seeing actions you have nothing to work on.

3, Keep going,

It may seem to be futile atm but believe me you will get there,

1 moment at a time, 1 day at a time, Deal with 1 thing at a time,

You can only take 50% of the marriage problems on your shoulders,

She owns 100% of her A

You are NOT trash,

Also you are not a WH...you are a BS so I feel its unfair to treat you any differently,

I sincerely hope you find the strength you need to help you through.

Scooby

I view what happened with the alcohol and the swinger club completely unrelated to your WW affair

In that optic...

After the principle meeting, I did apologize to cheating on her all those years ago.

I think this was a good idea. Regardless of whether you D or R, you could specifically apologize for what you did wrong, verbally, or written (not generic apologies) and ask for forgiveness so that you can put this behind you.

Whatever you choose to do, I wish you the best. Be patient, things will improve over time

I know I’m going to get crap for this, but here goes.

From Webster’s online dictionary...

Definition of adultery

: voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than that person's current spouse or partner

Really EarsEyesTongue!!

You honestly think ^^^^ is going to help ??

I know I’m going to get crap for this, but here goes.

Then maybe you shouldn't.

How is this helpful in any way...?

Nothing like kicking people when they are down...

Hey EarsEyesTongue....

If you want to judge about a lifestyle choice that many couples participate in, do it somewhere else where someone might give a shit.

As nouns the difference between adultery and infidelity is that adultery is sexual intercourse by a married person with someone other than their spouse while infidelity is unfaithfulness in marriage: practice or instance of having a sexual or romantic affair with someone other than one's spouse, without the consent of the spouse.

If you want to get all definitional and all....

Seriously though. This is a threadjack distracting from someone who needs help right now. Perhaps start a new thread on the subject. I would be happy to have a lively debate on the subject.

HT

[This message edited by HoldingTogether at 11:30 AM, August 6th (Tuesday)]

Again Neanderthal, your transgression is different than her transgression; apples and oranges. Some people can't separate the two. Apples and oranges are not the same.

You've got to keep a clear head about this. You may want to visit past issues at some point in your recovery but right now you have to break this down into bite-size pieces. Don't try to eat this elephant in one bite. Deal with the issue at hand; your wife's choices. Focusing on each issue separately initially will allow you to make sound judgements. You have time, take as much of it as you need to assimilate the affair. Don't allow yourself to be rushed into anything and don't conflate your past with the current situation. They are separate issues; deal with them separately.

You're in a lot of pain right now and you can expect that it's going to continue for a while longer. You're also likely falling into depression; this is normal. I was clinically depressed for over a year. You're not experiencing anything that others here haven't also experienced. How you deal with and alleviate that pain is what matters most.

As others have said, take only the advice that's productive to your healing. When you see opinions that are not helpful to you then discard them. You're the only one that knows your situation and you're the only one that knows what the best approach to healing is.

You have only two goals. 1. Get out of infidelity and 2. Take your life back. Anything that isn't speeding you toward these goals should be discarded. Don't overthink this. You are the prize, not her. Make choices that promote your future health and happiness. Take care of yourself.

I dont see remorse. From what you have said I see regret and fear.

Remorse means no more lying. No minimizing. No blameshifting. You dont have that.

Your wife participated and enjoyed the swinging. IIRC, your incident happened at a swingers party, where everyone got naked in a dark room and started having some form of sex,or touching. I don't know. If I were to willingly participate in something like that with my husband, and we had been drinking, I would expect him to be sexual with someone in that room. Regardless, she enjoyed it and was a willing participant.

OP, there are a few here who may feel sorry for your wife. She is scared and sad. But that doesn't make her choices your fault.

I'll be honest with you.. I think you should bring your WW home and that you should work it out in MC. Typically, I'd say IC before MC, but clearly you two need help with communication. You love her, she loves you, you BOTH appear to want R. But you seem to be talking AT each other rather than TO each other, and a good MC can help you both establish a better relational skill set.

It doesn't look like either one of you had appropriate boundaries, certainly not boundaries in keeping with what your true beliefs turned out to be. So, before you throw away something you value, I'd advise you BOTH to "turn in" to each other rather than away. Read everything by John Gottman you can get your hands on. There's no right or wrong way to recover from infidelity. It's all just a matter of both people getting their character in line with their true values, being on the same page about those values, and respecting each other's agency.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 12:06 PM, August 6th (Tuesday)]