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I worry I wont see her as a prize anymore. No matter how good she becomes. I mean if she isn't a prize, why should I bother? Wouldn't that be me settling? Again I know my thinking is very hypocritical. I should just be thankful, she wants anything to do with me.

I scuffled with exactly this for the first 3-4 years. Thing is, before D-Day I had her on an unrealistic pedastal. Post D-Day several things needed to happen. Obviously I needed clear, consistent action from her geared towards getting herself right. But I also needed to accept that just like me, she was human, not an angel. She fucked up very badly, as I have too at times. As time passed, she got better. Eventually I saw those special qualities again, but now in a more realistic light.

Best of luck.

Hi Neanderthal, how are you doing today?

Earlier you posted that you felt like the threat of the STD test was looming over you. Have the results made you feel any better? Changed anything?

I see that you're struggling with your past history and how that factors into your wife's betrayal. While I have absolute respect for your desire to give your wife full transparency, I just want to reiterate that nothing you did or didn't do excuses, mitigates, or explains her decision to cheat. Her cheating is about her. Her weakness, lack of boundaries, and entitlement. Full disclosure, I read your wife's post on the Wayward section before she deleted it. I understand you do not wish to discuss your past in this forum and I respect that. Again, none of us are perfect in our marriages. There is nothing wrong with empathizing with your wife and having compassion for her, now that this has been brought to the forefront (and you can better appreciate how your actions may have caused hurt). It may also assist you in understanding the mindset your wife was in when she made the decision to betray you. But do not focus on this now at the expense of allowing yourself space to grieve and fully feel all the things you're feeling right now. These are separate issues and at the moment, her affair should be the priority.

Further to the above, stop thinking about yourself as a hypocrite or not deserving of your feelings. It's not conducive to healing and it doesn't help anyone because there is nothing anyone can do right now to stop you from feeling them. Imagine instead of cheating, your wife stabbed you with an axe in the stomach. You're sitting there bleeding out but instead of doing everything you can to stem the bleeding, it occurs to you, "Wait, in the past, I've caused my wife to bleed. Do I even deserve medical attention? Can I even be mad at her" It's absurd right? Right now, focus on stopping the bleeding. You can (and should) talk about the rest later when you're ready for marriage counselling.

With respect to building up your confidence and feeling like a prize - I think that is a good strategy. Obviously this is easier said than done. What are you doing to take care of yourself? What makes you feel good about yourself? Is it safe to assume you're abstaining from alcohol again? You mentioned a history of depression. Have you spoken to your doctor about what's going on? Are you taking medication?

With respect to feeling like you're wife is a prize. I don't know, it's tough. My H's affair definitely changed the way I saw him for a while. I by no means thought he was a perfect person beforehand but I definitely saw him as a moral person with strong values. I felt lucky to be with him. It is wild to look at the person you thought you knew better than anyone and worry that you were wrong and that you don't know them at all. The only thing you can do for now is to watch your wife's behavior to see whether she really is the person you thought she was, a person that you can one day to be proud to be with again. I'm 2.5 years out from D-Day right now and I can honestly say that I feel lucky to be with him again. Things are forever changed but I'm proud of where we are and how far we've come, so yeah, it's possible. That said, it's still super early for you guys to be making any major decisions. Keep taking this one day at a time...

Hi Neanderthal, how are you doing today?

Thanks for asking. I'm doing ok. I took my daughter to a insect petting zoo sort of thing today. She got to see all kinds of cool stuff, touch a scorpion, go on a nature trail walk, etc. She had a blast and I even smiled a few times. I had a buddy I trust join us with his kids. He's helped me think about normal stuff for a little while, and listened when I wanted to vent.

While we were there, WW was trying her best to get swindled by a car dealer. She's trying hard to trade or sell her car. Unfortunately she doesn't know any better. I try to help a little from afar, since I really don't want to be involved with it. But it looks like i'll have to help. The problem is, I research things to death before I make a big purchase. I took me months the last time I bought a car. I don't have the energy for that right now.

Earlier you posted that you felt like the threat of the STD test was looming over you. Have the results made you feel any better? Changed anything?

I'm thankful about the not having HSV2. No real feelings change. I still cant believe she didn't tell me. I don't feel anymore drawn or engaged to her now. I'm kinda surprised I don't feel more relieved. I watch her walk around the house, and I just don't feel drawn to her. I'm sure she had a similar experience with me all those years ago. I wasn't special anymore, and neither is she. It's making me wonder what I ever saw in her to begin with. We were just kids when we got together. Two dumb kids tripping through life together. We aren't kids anymore, and we've wasted a lot of time acting like spoiled brats.

DailyReprieve and emergent8, I'm glad both of you have found some happiness years after infidelity struck you. I hope to be that lucky some day.

With respect to building up your confidence and feeling like a prize - I think that is a good strategy. Obviously this is easier said than done. What are you doing to take care of yourself? What makes you feel good about yourself? Is it safe to assume you're abstaining from alcohol again? You mentioned a history of depression. Have you spoken to your doctor about what's going on? Are you taking medication?

I forgot to respond to this earlier. I'm eating again. Sleep is still an issue. I don't know what makes me feel good about myself. I'll have to think on that. I try and do things with my daughter. Yes, I am still sober. 38 days now. I've been on Zoloft for as long as I can remember. I could probably use a bigger dose though. Unfortunately my doctor quit or changed jobs. So I need to find another primary care physician soon.

Excellent, N. Though it doesn't always feel like it, just the positive action of not picking up a drink and working a little recovery is enough to make it a good day. You got this.

Glad to hear your update Neanderthal. Ok is better than terrible. Do try to think about what makes you feel good about yourself - I cant tell you how important this was for me. Your self-confidence has taken a pretty strong blow. If you can bring yourself to exercise (even if it’s the last thing in the world that seems appealing right now) please do that as well. Not only will those endorphins work magic, but it will give you self-confidence and help with sleep. It sounds like you’re a good dad. I’ll bet activities with your daughter being you pride and happiness. Keep that up. I’m so pleased to hear you’re not drinking.

You mentioned you have a friend who lets you vent about things. That’s so great. Who else in your life knows what’s going on?

Feel free to share as much or as little about what you’re thinking about your relationship with your wife. I don’t know if you guys are reading each other’s threads. If so I can imagine your reticence to open up.

emergent8

I rode my bicycle for 5 miles yesterday. For the first time in 6 months or so. It was much easier than I remember. I am down 50 pounds since then, so I'm sure that helped.

Then I got the bright idea to chop down a tree with an axe! That's definitely not something I would have ever done 40 days ago. I own a chainsaw after all. Work smarter not harder, right?. I over did it, and now I'm just all aches and pains. I almost had it down yesterday, but I quit from exhaustion. Then it stormed last night and knocked it over. So I didn't get to enjoy the sight of it finally toppling over. At least I have something to do now. I'll probably beat on that tree for awhile.

My sister knows. But she's across the country and very conservative so to speak. I told a few coworkers, since they were watching fall apart at work. I couldn't hide it from them. And you guys, that's about it.

I still haven't read her thread. Which has been difficult. For some reason I think you guys know more than I do. She says she hasn't read mine, except for reading my original post.

I feel like pretty much everything has been a win for her lately.

She had the fun and excitement of new love with her AP.

Post Dday she got a new job at a newer school closer to home.

She's working on trading in her tainted car for a new car! (Which I'm balls deep now helping her accomplish this)

I'm not doing anything, so she finally has my full attention all the time.

She's in counseling to better herself.

I understand some of these things should be wins for me too. Other than her sleeping on an air mattress in the other room, I feel like there hasn't been any negatives for her actions. Again I know I'm a hypocrite. I got off scot-free for years.

Nice to hear you are back on the bike and being physical, axe and all :) But it really gets the muscles in pain when you jump in full vigor on something you havent done in a long while.

I can see you feeling that way about your WS. But I think a WS who is remorseful goes through their own little hell. And many of them try to keep it from their BS because they don't want it to come across as their pain is important or equal to yours. So they hide as much of it as they can.

My guess is she is trying to put on a good front so she can try to help you and the marriage. But inside is fear, shame, disgust, anxiety and worry.

All of that is good... without it you have a WS who is just going through the motions or is exiting.

Then I got the bright idea to chop down a tree with an axe!

Ha! About 1.5 months or so post-D-Day I took a crowbar to a wall in our old house and taught myself to put up new drywall. I also repainted our kitchen which I had wanted to do for years. It's good to have projects - they are a nice distraction and give you a sense of accomplishment. Keep biking. It'll pay off eventually.

I feel like pretty much everything has been a win for her lately.

She had the fun and excitement of new love with her AP.

Post Dday she got a new job at a newer school closer to home.

She's working on trading in her tainted car for a new car! (Which I'm balls deep now helping her accomplish this)

I'm not doing anything, so she finally has my full attention all the time.

She's in counseling to better herself.

I understand some of these things should be wins for me too. Other than her sleeping on an air mattress in the other room, I feel like there hasn't been any negatives for her actions.

I felt the same way. My WH had the thrill of the A - got his rocks off with someone who made him feel irresistible. Learning of his A made me feel lower than I've ever felt in my life. My (normally healthy) self-confidence was absolutely decimated and I could not stop myself from comparing myself to his AP. He had a host of sexy material to add to his spank bank, I was tortured with mind-movies of them being physical and frequently wondered whether when we had sex, he was picturing her. By not leaving immediately, I felt like he got the ego boost and romantic assurance of knowing that he could do one of the worst things in the world to me, and I'd still be by his side. I felt like he should be punished somehow, but the only sufficient punishment in my mind would be leaving him and part of me felt like that would be cutting off my nose to spite my face. There is no justice to a BS in the aftermath of infidelity. It is a never-ending shit-sandwich that we are forced to endure. No amount of penance by your wife, will even the score. I don't say any of this to make you feel better - just to let you know that I understand, and that feeling this way is very normal. Have you talked to your wife about this? What does she say?

Again I know I'm a hypocrite. I got off scott-free for years.

Again, please stop comparing situations or telling yourself that you don't deserve to feel the way you feel. You absolutely do. Is she pushing this narrative or are you? I get the impression it's the latter. (A) Without excusing anything, I don't think it's the same thing (B) your wife is an adult and chose to rugsweep at the time (C) any pain she felt from your actions, didn't prevent her from her from willingly inflicting this pain on you (D) you are not the same person you were back then and most importantly (E) it's not productive right now.

What was your (conservative) sister's reaction? Are you still in counselling yourself - how is that going?

Hope your finding your way through your ordeal N. Just sending out some good vibes your way. Hope you a good holiday weekend

Hi Neanderthal, just checking in. How’re you doing today? When does your daughter start school. I imagine it’s soon.

Neanderthal -

Hope you're doing well today. I know a lot of people will have this perspective - that the WS got away with something - they've added to the sum total of their life experiences and subtracted from ours. That they somehow have MORE at our expense. I don't know about your WW but mine was VERY entitled after DDay #1. She blamed me and gave me trickle truth and continued to see and talk to her APs for a month. In the face of it all I gave her forgiveness.

It's a terrible gift that you and I have given. Wonderful. Beautiful. But terrible too. In order to have her affairs my WW had to live a double life and pretend she wasn't hurting herself, me, or our three kids (under 10) by her actions or that she DESERVED what she was getting. By the end she'd reached a point of nihilism. Initially she told a mutual friend of ours that she had done what she had done and I just had to get over it and that what did it matter, we were all just going to be dead in the ground in the end.

Today it's a whole different story. One of her APs is a co-worker who asked her yesterday for a reference for a new job. My forgiveness means that she has to live with what she did and find a way to not hate herself. Forgiving herself is a HUGE task for her and a big obstacle to making our marriage work. If I can't forgive her who can she forgive herself?

One of the things waywards have to do is convince themselves that they're entitled or that you don't care or, in my wife's case, what's done is done and my husband will never forgive. Finding out that they were catastrophically wrong and that they would lose everything but for the forgiveness of the person they betrayed conveys an enormous burden - not just for how bad they were but for how good you are and living with that kind of guilt is a big struggle for any even remotely self-aware person.

In the end, I've always felt through this that if I love her (I do) then I can struggle with my feelings, I can be sad and confused, I can allow myself to be weak and succumb to my emotions too, but I can't resent giving her forgiveness or doing nice things for her. I can't resent trying to make her life better or easier because we're tied together. What I do for her I do for me and our children too. Just as the bad things she and I did hurt ourselves as much as our partner and the rest of our family.

There are no wrong paths but justice isn't something that is achievable just as perfection isn't achievable. Looking for scales to balance or things to be even is a natural reaction but it's just not possible, ever. Not in R. Not in D.

One of my personal favorite sayings has always been that you can't un-ring a bell. I love it because a rung bell continues to vibrate after it's struck, the sound lingers in the air for a while but slowly, inevitably, it fades away. The bell was rung, it's impossible for it to be un-rung, but the sound doesn't linger forever. I think BSes have a habit of continuing to remind themselves and their waywards that yes, the bell did indeed ring. It's true but that constant reminder is an obstacle to you as well as your WW.

Be kind and gentle to each other to the best of your capability.

Hang in there brother.

Oh, and regarding reading your WW's thread - I don't really advise it. It's pretty self-evident that waywards are damaged and confused people and thinking through things can logically lead you down a path of reasoning you're not sure you feel for ANYONE. That's a working thread just like yours is and, as someone who has read it, she does strike me as someone trying to work through things.

After DDay I looked for hidden and double meanings in everything my WW wrote or said. In the right frame of mind I sought reassurance. In the wrong frame of mind I sought more to hurt myself. If you're not in a position to handle confusion by your WW then don't go looking for it anymore than you have it in your home already.

***posting as a member***

Hey. Look man I get the fact that you like to torture yourself for your past. It doesn't feel great but at least it feels like you are in control. I get it. Hating ourselves for things we can't change isn't exclusive to WS. It never was. What does that gain you ?

You need to stop that shit right quick. Why punish yourself ? Why import blame for things that are not yours to own ? Kindly, stop it.

t/j

To anyone else talking about his past . . . Stop fucking bringing that up. This guy has fucked up in the past. We all have. He knows that already. It helps no one. It does not change the fact that his wife had a fucking affair. Any choices a BS makes does not, "make," a WS choose to have an affair. The implications that a BS can, "cause," a WS to cheat wants me to go off on a 11 page rant about co-dependency and projection, but I will spare you all that. Google it or talk to your own IC about it (recommend that BTW). Rant over.

end t/j

Consequences happen. Your wife, like everyone else who makes choices, is not immune to consequences. It is easy in our pain to see their A (their choice) as them having the fun and us paying the price. Again, martyrdom has it's advantages. In our co-dependence we own the actions of our spouse making the A "our fault." Are we not independent and salient individuals ? Does my spouse need to tell me when I need to go to the bathroom ? Of course not. An extreme example to prove my point. Any healthy relationship allows room for an individual to make their own choices. One of those people choosing to have an A does not require both people to agree or choose to do so. That is why choosing to have an A is so fucking selfish and cruel. In a co-dependent marriage unilateral choices are seen as a threat to the status quo and are taken as a threat to the established relationship. As with anything, preservation of it's self is paramount to anything else.

WS, by and large, suck. They put themselves before the M and should suffer the consequences of that choice. Not all of those consequences are apparent to us. BTW which is why we need to ask them and communicate with them. It helps us understand that they did not get away "Scot free." Special individuals, narcissists, can seemingly get away with that, but that is a different rant for a different day. If your wife is a narcissists you should D her today. No sane individual, who is not co-dependent, would.

IF she isn't then just as you feel shame for choices you made in the past, at least entertain the idea, that when people make bad choices they pay a price. It is so internal to themselves that it is hard for anyone, including their spouse, to understand. For some of us we are own worst critic and it never gets silenced. Imagine having to her yourself tel yourself how bad you are. Over and over again. I wouldn't wish that on my own worst enemy.

I've seen my W beat herself almost everyday for the past 7 + years. I can't listen to every thought she has about what kind of person she was. I hope that she can see the person she is today and how that person enhances my individual life, but like me, she will never forget the terrible price paid by both of us. Why can't that co-exist with a happy present? It can BTW.

The difference is that she choose to pursue those actions that led to this horrible pain. I did not. Anytime I remember the pain I also remember it was not a choice I made and therefore was not something I need to own. I got my own problems/guilt. I don't need to import bullshit from somebody else.

My choices=my fault(guilt)

My W choices=her fault (her own feelings whatever they may be. I can try to understand them by her sharing them with me, but just as she can never understand my pain 100% I can never understand hers. She tries

by communicating that to me and I get enough of it to understand she did not get away with anything by choosing to have an A. My grace takes care of the difference)

I felt like he should be punished somehow, but the only sufficient punishment in my mind would be leaving him and part of me felt like that would be cutting off my nose to spite my face.

I feel the same way. I am a spiteful person. If losing me would truly punish her, that seems like the thing to do.

In the face of it all I gave her forgiveness.

It's a terrible gift that you and I have given.

I haven't offered her forgiveness or reconciliation. Honestly, I doubt I ever will.

I can't resent trying to make her life better or easier because we're tied together. What I do for her I do for me and our children too.

Easier said than done. I do resent her. Tuesday evening I helped her buy a new car. That really bugged me. It had to happen, but it still stings a lot. The only good thing that came from it is my name isn't anywhere near it. So if/when we divorce, I don't have to worry about that.

Hey. Look man I get the fact that you like to torture yourself for your past. It doesn't feel great but at least it feels like you are in control. I get it. Hating ourselves for things we can't change isn't exclusive to WS. It never was. What does that gain you ?

You need to stop that shit right quick. Why punish yourself ? Why import blame for things that are not yours to own ? Kindly, stop it.

It is part of my past. It needs to be said, as it helps me understand how I'm truly feeling.

I had a great and terrible session with my therapist on Tuesday. I was blaming myself for most of the session and finally my IC asked:

What has to happen for you to stop blaming yourself?

I pondered that for quite a while. Eventually I said that I know it's not my fault. Her actions were completely hers to make of her own free will. Then the overwhelming sadness hit me, like being hit be a Mack truck. I knew then my marriage was over. Infidelity is a deal breaker to me (even with my past). If I accept I'm not responsible for her affair, then I know divorce is the only outcome.

My therapist is definitely pro-reconciliation. Saying it doesn't have to be that black and white and to give it time. But I wasn't listening anymore.

Since Tuesday I've been pretty much a grey rock. I see her, but don't acknowledge her most of the time.

I'm still beating up on that persimmon tree. Its actually been very helpful. Despite of the aches and pain, blisters and mosquito bites, its my favorite part of the day. I bought a better ax, and my form is improving. I'm still riding my bike too. Tomorrow i'll be running a 2 mile trail run here at a local park. Lots of elevation changes, and a bit of a rough trail, so it should be challenging for me. I'm down to 185 lbs. At 74" that's about as slim as I should get for my height. In fact this is what I weighed when I left for boot camp at age 18.

We may stay together, but its not because of love. We have both shown that ship has sailed.

Infidelity is a deal breaker to me (even with my past). If I accept I'm not responsible for her affair, then I know divorce is the only outcome.

Or, is it possible, that maybe infidelity is not the dealbreaker that you always expected it to be, and your brain is keeping this blame-game alive until you reconcile in your own mind that there is a potential future with your WW?

[This message edited by jb3199 at 11:33 AM, September 1st (Sunday)]

Affairs happen in "perfect" marriages as well. Yours wasn't. Unlike others, I think it's good that you're acknowledging that. She could have chosen not to cheat. You could've chosen to treat her with respect over the years. Both of you didn't act with integrity. But one didn't cause the other. It's selfishness and entitlement most of all. Do you think she could've done something differently for you to not behave in the way you did over the years? The answer is no,right? You were entitled. You were selfish. Deserved to do what you want. She wasn't even on your radar. Same thing applies in her affair.

I will always be an advocate for taking ownership of your actions. Whatever it is, it shouldn't be a knee jerk reaction to the slights you suffered. Even if you choose to leave, do it because you can't be the husband and father that your loved ones deserve,rather than some desire for hurting her. Humans are resilient man. She'll maybe grieve for a while but then like most, she'll move on and so will you. This eternal damnation you wish to inflict-I understand the desire-it'll never come to fruit. The bell can't be unrung. She can't make the affair not happen. Try to make peace with that. And if you can't, leave when you are sure in your heart that both of your lives will be better after divorce. She'll always be a parent to your child. A little grace her way won't go amiss.

With regards to your love for her coming back, if she's consistent in her efforts and you're able to open your heart, maybe it'll come back. There are many reconciled couples on this site with much "worse" affairs who were able to love each other again. You're still very early in this. Take it slow and don't think of it as a lost cause.

[This message edited by Rustylife at 2:46 PM, September 1st (Sunday)]

Or, is it possible, that maybe infidelity is not the dealbreaker that you always expected it to be, and your brain is keeping this blame-game alive until you reconcile in your own mind that there is a potential future with your WW?

This is very much a possibility. But more likely its my brain trying to avoid divorce. That's not the same as reconciling. If that makes any sense.

Even if you choose to leave, do it because you can't be the husband and father that your loved ones deserve,rather than some desire for hurting her.

I'm constantly putting things into two categories. Reasons to divorce, and reasons to reconcile. Although I think of myself as a dumb ape, I do put more thought into my decision making. I would never divorce just to hurt her, but if its an added bonus to a decision that's already made.....than so be it.

She'll maybe grieve for a while but then like most, she'll move on and so will you.

I'm well aware of this. In fact, I believe she would be remarried and pregnant within a year of us divorcing. I'm sure I'd be the one struggling to move on.

She can't make the affair not happen. Try to make peace with that. And if you can't, leave when you are sure in your heart that both of your lives will be better after divorce

I don't think I agree with this. I'll divorce when it's in my best interest. Not hers. I do hope I can make peace with it, because she will always be in my life.

There are many reconciled couples on this site with much "worse" affairs who were able to love each other again

I find these kind of comments irritating. Any other couples level of pain has zero regard on ours. You only know your own lowest point(rock bottom), not some hypothetical bottom. I also believe those couples you are referring to aren't actually happy or in a better place. Especially if they are hanging around here long term. Why continue to remind yourself of your worst trauma ever by continuing to relive it here? I can only guess its because they cant let go of it, or live past it. That is not a loving happy life. This is probably off on a tangent that will only alienate me more from the OG members here. I'm sorry if that happens because I do value the wisdom I receive.

Maybe I'm moving on to a new stage in this whole ordeal. I'm ready to fight the world and burn it all down. Instead I'll go take my anger out on a stupid tree trunk.

Some people reconcile immediately, while other are one and done kind of guys. None of that has anything to do with you, your decision is your decision. It isn't a matter of right or wrong, just what is right for you. However, once you have decided that you are unable to reconcile, you should really consider moving on with life. You all deserve to be happy in life. It will obviously be tough on all of you for awhile, but the only thing worse than being from a broken home, is being in a broken home. Hang tough.

As recovering alcoholics, we have to deal with the resentments against our WW, or we're likely to get drunk again. We do that for ourselves, not for them. Doesn't mean we have to stay married to them.