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Thumos, I am so very glad to hear you are recovering and everything that was going on with your ticker is working out for the best. Please keep taking care of yourself and doing what the doctors tell you.

If I may I would like to ask a question, the response your WW gave to your statement seems to come off as kind of disingenuous. Granted, we are not there in person and obviously can't see the emotions and expression you would give when telling us what she said. But if you are more or less writing what she said verbatim, then....

I'm committed to you, our marriage, our family, and to living in a way that will never expose myself to STD's and the trauma associated with exposing someone you love to them.

has a ring of disconnect to me. It would seem to me she should be expressing a more deeper despair for what she is putting you through. Is that the case, or am I reading into this incorrectly?

[This message edited by SlapNutsABingo at 3:04 PM, February 27th (Thursday)]

Her response back was, "I agree with all of that and feel lucky as well. I am thankful I did not expose you to a disease and I understand how you feel. I'm sure I would feel the same way. I've learned a lot about STD's through this process that I didn't know before and I'm sorry you had to learn anything about them. I'm committed to you, our marriage, our family, and to living in a way that will never expose myself to STD's and the trauma associated with exposing someone you love to them. I am willing to have another STD test panel at any time in the future if you feel worried or insecure that I have exposed you to a disease."

Is it just me here, or do you get the feeling she is reciting this by rote? Like it's a rehearsed statement, or a part in a play where she plays "concerned person"?

Is it just me here, or do you get the feeling she is reciting this by rote? Like it's a rehearsed statement, or a part in a play where she plays "concerned person"?

She seems to be like 3 different people depending on what she thinks is the best personality to keep Thumos tangled up for another day. Her broom eversweeping.

would seem to me she should be expressing a more deeper despair for what she is putting you through. Is that the case, or am I reading into this incorrectly?

To be fair this was a text exchange so I’m giving you our exchange verbatim. We’re middle aged people who text in complete sentences and paragraphs 😂 and that takes some emotion out of it.

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:48 PM, February 27th (Thursday)]

She seems to be like 3 different people depending on what she thinks is the best personality to keep Thumos tangled up for another day.

Can you say more about this? I’d like to read your thoughts based on what I’ve reported here.

I keep wondering why she’d want to keep me tangled up after so readily turning her back on me. It’s not like I’m a sugar daddy, though we’re certainly not poor and live a materially successful life.

To all your points I do often feel I’m dealing with someone who is telling me what I want to hear.

After her last text, I wrote back to her this:

Can you offer any insight on why you’d jump willingly into unprotected sex with him and then me a day or two later? I mean, even not knowing much about STDs before, I can’t imagine having unprotected sex with a woman I really didn’t know all that well in an illicit relationship where the risk of other promiscuity and other partners was high. At a minimum there were four microbiomes circulating in you — yours, mine, AP and OBS It is likely there were more and that regardless of any possible STD risk, I’ve most certainly been exposed to multiple microbiomes without my consent. This really didn’t sink in with me until recently. Also the common male concerns of “sloppy seconds” is very hurtful to a man. It’s difficult to describe the feeling of humiliation and emasculation that attends it. Or the worry that you were so frigid with me bc you were being “faithful” to him. It just baffles me.

It’s also striking to me given your sophistication and knowledge base on medical and health care issues that this is such a blind spot for you. You’re far more informed at every level than I am, you understand the body and biology much better than I do. It’s very clear you are more than smart enough and have intelligence to burn and would have made a good doctor. And you even know anatomy minutiae and Information on things the vast majority of laypeople know nothing about. Like the lung nodule. You knew immediately “oh, it’s benign. Nothing to really worry about” and you’re right. But I never would have known that. You’re also fascinated and fearful about infectious disease at a level I almost never think about. You’re hyper focused on making sure people get flu shots for example. You understand and comprehend the spread of the Coronavirus while I was nonchalant and ignorant about it. Yet on the subject of STD’s nada, zilch and you seemed to have little or no thought for your safety or mine. It just seems incongruous and confusing.

Since I sent those texts this morning, nothing. Radio silence. Now granted, she has the kind of job that can often keep her from responding to texts. But according to phone records it didn’t keep her from replying to the OM’s texts and phone calls while they were in the affair dozens of times a day.

I guess you could say my texts are pretty clinical and flat in tone as well.

[This message edited by Thumos at 4:26 PM, February 27th (Thursday)]

FWIW, I find her response to the STD issue to be 100% normal and human. What does one say in response to being reminded that one did something that was unimaginably stupid and shitty? All one can do is acknowledge it and assure the victim that it won't happen again.

As Thumos notes it was a text conversation between Boomers using complete sentences.

Hey were not Boomers! Don’t age us bro! 😎 we are 100 percent Breakfast Club GenX all the way!

Would it make any difference on the express or implied consequence if she was the one to initiate getting the post nup drawn up?

It would make all the difference. Witnesses, supplemental documentation, asking her in writing to reconsider and her refusal, etc.. Anything you can use to demonstrate she wants to do it, knowing and accepting the risks.

Now, it still has to be fair, and she must have a full disclosure. If there are any writings that she has in her possession that could be reasonably interpreted her agreement is a condition to stay married, it could be problematic.

Now, it still has to be fair, and she must have a full disclosure. If there are any writings that she has in her possession that could be reasonably interpreted her agreement is a condition to stay married, it could be problematic.

One thing in my favor is that I never asked for it. She volunteered it. I initially asked her why and that I would consider it, and then later told I'd take her up on the offer.

I will do as you say and get a documented conversation where I ask, "I want to make sure you are doing this with open eyes and that this is something you offered" and then getting her to confirm that.

Then I will also let her make the atty. appt and document that in a convo as well. But there's only so much of this one could do and a judge could always just decide to be a dick and disregard.

Thumos, I guess what I don't get is how she can feel lucky and insist on not infecting you with HPV while being confronted with the possibility from your lung nodule. I mean, has she not had a full STD test since DDay? Why is her status even in question if she's had one before and has been having normal pap smears since? It's like her words assure you that she definitely did not give you HPV but her actions sound like someone who just had an "Oh Shit" moment and is rushing to get tested. It does come off as a bit disingenuous and like she's telling you what you want to hear while also acknowledging the fact that what she's saying may not even be true.

Personally, I wouldn't bother with a post nup because they can and do get thrown out. But I support your right to get one if it makes sense to you.

I mean, has she not had a full STD test since DDay?

Yes she has but I’m paranoid. And HPV can hide.

Because of the recent conversation with my wife and also serendipitously a topic that was posted on STDs I started processing and thinking about this issue more deeply last night and this morning. Here’s what I came up with. I’m curious about the thoughts of others:

STDs are now so widespread and also more difficult to cure that this should be a more prominent topic on SI and I’m glad this was posted. We should consider STDs a metaphysical issue in EVERY single case of infidelity. It is present as a matter of ethics always whether or not it is present physically.

This is similar to EA’s vs PA’s. In most EA’s the desire for and movement toward a PA was there but hasn’t progressed to that point. Metaphysically, it’s a distinction without a difference — which is why betrayed spouses struggle so mightily whether sex was actually consummated or not.

But in the case of STD’s, the metaphysical presence is literally a matter of life or death. Because STD’s can be transmitted even with deep kissing, the risk of STD’s is therefore present in 99 percent of affairs that had any physical component (deep kissing almost always occurs in every physical affair).

The prominence of this issue is even more so if (like me) you were faithful to one man or one woman. Aside from STDs the new science about genital microbiomes demonstrates the truth of the “one flesh” concept of Judeo-Christian marriage. You can be secular and still acknowledge that a sexual relationship represents a complex physical, emotional and psychological symbiotic interplay that science is only beginning to understand. If a partner betrays and shatters this very real symbiotic coupling, and brings multiple other microbiomes in (which is always the case bc most APs aren’t exclusive with each other) then the shattering is quite profound.

I believe this accounts for part of the “gut instinct” about infidelity and the repulsion betrayed spouses feel. The heart and gut have more neurons than the brain and are likely processing information at even more subtle and complex levels. Our own relationship with the benign bacteria we carry around all over our bodies is only now being understood.

Thus we must grapple with the brute fact that our wayward spouses were willing to risk our very lives for their fantasy — and that the risk of our very death was worth it to them. In many ways this realization is similar to how many are beginning to conclude that infidelity represents a form of rape.

Once you put in these stark terms you begin to think even less charitably about infidelity, and reconciliation becomes an even heavier lift.

Just found this quote from one scientist related to microbiomes:

Van de Wijgert thinks that a woman’s vaginal microbiome probably adapts to the bacteria present on the penis of a long-term partner. “The risk lies in having sex with a new partner, which is a microbial assault on the vagina,” she says. “The vagina will mount an immune response against the bacteria, causing inflammation.”

That’s just one scientist and one study. It’s very clear that sex alters female and male microbiomes in profound ways we don’t understand. The “one flesh” of a marital covenant seems to do this in a beneficial way.

The violation of infidelity seems to do so in a harmful way (studies show the immune system is weakened by the wrong microbiomes becoming intertwined). And microbiomes shared in sex also alter gut microbiomes (and remember your gut has more neurons than your brain).

So I think this goes way beyond just “did they actually give you an STD?” or not.

The empirical and metaphysical implications are much more profound on every single level for even one instance of deep kissing that violates the marital covenant.

[This message edited by Thumos at 8:27 AM, February 28th (Friday)]

That's really good news on your heart. Withholding judgment on your lung. I consider myself lucky that my apnea is controlled via nasal strips; CPAP was unbearable for me. I hope you get the sorted out, and I hope the sorting makes the nodule go away.

I have no comment on your text conversation, since I can see many possible emotions in the words, and I have no idea which emotions were involved in your W's response.

Wrt your questions-by-text, why does anyone think something complex can be resolved by text? I just don't understand that. 'Complex' requires verbal and non-verbal comms. That may be an opinion, but what if it's a fact?

ETA: Retrouvaille - yes! Most SIers who do it come back able to communicate much better than before the weekend, especially those who do the follow-up sessions. Best of luck with it! (I meant to comment on Retrouvaille, but forgot until I read Bftg's comment.)

[This message edited by sisoon at 9:31 AM, March 1st (Sunday)]

I do agree with Sisoon that text (or email or messenger, etc.) is a bad way to engage in discussions about complex subjects, especially where there are emotional aspects to the communication. I realize that because of work travel, sometimes that is all you have, but would suggest if possible creating scheduled face-time sessions to actually talk this stuff out in person.

I hope Retrouvaille affords a forum where you can at least get some clarity.

I'm very late to the party...still slogging through your thread. This is from Jan 31,

Someone asked if I have a life insurance. Yes. And yes it’s sizable. Designates my children as the beneficiaries.

My advice is that someone NOT your wife be appointed the trustee of the funds. Rewrite your will stating specifically, that your wife isn't to have access to the funds. That way, she can't plunder your kids inheritance.

Redwing, as you make your way through the thread. I think you'll see that Thumos' WW is a devoted good mother. I don't think there is reason to worry she would do that.

Life insurance proceeds that have a specific beneficiary that is living at the time of death of the decedent are not included in the gross estate.

Just checking in on this thread. Glad to see that your heart is in good shape. Also glad to hear you are taking concrete steps to feel more in control about your future, no matter your choice. Limbo is a killer of mind, body and soul.

Interesting tidbits about the microbiomes. It's interesting, and a little TMI, but when WH and I first started sleeping together, I started getting UTIs. Gradually they tapered off. They returned again after his A that was not disclosed. I wonder if the whore's bacteria had something to do with that. Makes sense that the introduction of new bacteria wreaks havoc especially on sensitive systems and can cause lasting damage.

Also curious to see how your weekend at Retrouvaille was... I considered a couples intensive, but at this point think it would be a waste of money. Hopefully you had a good experience.