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Brother

She has used this tragedy to hide from the hurt she has caused the marriage and you.

She is gone, this was her exit A, and is waiting for you to serve her with D.

Exspose her to all, have her served. D can be halted at any time. If she really wants. Can you D but co habitat in the same house?

Or start dating her once separated to see if the love can be re established. At the moment she isn’t showing respect or love towards you or your children

Good luck

I want to respond to some of the comments first, I will post an update in a separate posting after this.  I really appreciate the support and dialogue here, both hard truths and Team ElvisHeartbreak cheerleading.  I struggle every day but know I can always find something to help me on SI.

Has she done any serious reading about just how much trauma infidelity inflicts? Has the counselor impressed upon her the depth of pain a betrayed spouse feels?I think it would be good to have a written comparison and have the counselor back you up to show her that the pain you are experiencing is of a similar magnitude, if not greater, than grieving for an estranged brother.

She hasn't done any reading other than listening to "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair", which she listened to once and said it inspired her to come clean about all the details (secret emails, etc.).  ARC has started delving into how much she has hurt me in relation to the pain she feels over her late brother.  But I'm afraid a comparison of the two will push her into defending her pain as being bigger or more real than mine if she's threatened.

You putting her first, even after she hurts you, has become the status quo and she will expect that to stay the same until you stand up and change it. And the longer it goes on, the less chance you have of getting her to change.

You seem like a very nice person... too nice. She is treating you like garbage. And, it pains me to say this: you are letting her. Start standing up for yourself. Take steps to move on without her. If she snaps out of it, great... but move forward.

I agree with you both nekonamida and Hg65. I'm scared to implement the 180 but know that I need to do something to show that things have changed and stand up for my needs and myself.  I still don't feel like she's had to suffer any repercussions of her A - and I know it's been my "Mr. Nice Guy" attitude.

You don't have to be nasty about it. There's nothing in the 180 which requires nastiness. But it will keep you from sending mixed signals about being okay with her adultery. And it will help you break free of your emotional dependence on her.

Thank you for your continued thoughtful responses Chamomile.  I don't want to send mixed signals.  I will incorporate strategies of the 180 and deploy as best I can.

Look, from everything you have been able to find your WW is not currently involved in A and has not been in contact with the OM since the beginning of August. She desperately wants to rugsweep the whole thing and blameshift if you cannot R. Doing the 180 is not going to make her come out of the fog or Limerence, because from what you have described, there is none. She wants to move on and get past it. She does not display humility. She is defensive and contentious. Underlying all of this is a fear of facing her own shame and guilt.You have to use your own judgement to figure out how to approach your WW. You know her better than any of us. Just know that every action carries a reward and a risk. If you want to reach out and be kind and caring to your WW. There is no harm in that. Whether you R or D, you are going to be tied to this woman for decades She may open up more to you and be less cold. But you will continue to hurt and have resolved pain if she does not take that opportunity of your reaching out to reciprocate and begin to show remorse. Take your time. This is not a race. Time will give you a perspective and a chance to see her actions. Right now her actions in refusing to acknowledge your pain, and instead selfishly focusing on herself, is the problem. If and how you can break that stalemate is the question.

Fareast, thank you for posting this.  I re-read this a lot.  It helped me feel like I can modify the 180 to my situation and better understand that I am in control.

Let's boil this interaction down to the bare bones so you can see what happened...You're doing your 180, stepping back and just waiting for her to notice. She does notice and asks what's going on. You share your feelings with her in hope that she'll finally validate and soothe them. She turns it around on you by focusing on her own feelings and then blaming you for "pushing her away" (a regurgitated phrase she picked up from ARC which subordinates the feelings you originally shared). You then capitulate and join her in prioritizing HER feelings... which she promptly shuts you out of.It's not hard to get a WS to agree to R on HER terms. It's hard to get her to agree to it on yours. This example from last night, this life you're leading since DDay... that's R on HER terms. That's your future. Is it good enough for you? Can you survive and thrive without validation and empathy for your feelings when your feelings will always be a distant second in her list of priorities? 

Nail on the head Chamomile.  Your questions are discussions I am now having with ARC.  I really get a lot out of your responses.  I'm working on figuring out how to be as strong as they make me want to be.

Exspose her to all, have her served. D can be halted at any time. If she really wants. Can you D but co habitat in the same house?

Or start dating her once separated to see if the love can be re established. At the moment she isn’t showing respect or love towards you or your children 

Buffer, I've thought about this a lot since you posted.  The thought of D scares me so much but I am beginning to understand that it may be my reality.  I actually asked my WW if she would understand if I eventually asked her for D, if her A was a dealbreaker for me and all the stuff she did with her AP was too much for me to deal with.  She said she didn't want to respond to that question, but that she was hopeful that I would give her a shot at R.

It's been awhile since we have heard from you. How has things progressed? Has there been any progress?

Well paboy, since you asked, here's an incredibly long update from nearly 2 weeks of surviving this shitty reality.

Before I left for the airport on the morning of 10/9, I spoke to my WW in the garage. Told her that last night sucked. That I understood she needed something from me that I wasn’t giving her. But that I also needed something from her that she wasn’t giving me. I reminded her of something we heard in one of the audio books we listened to during the first few weeks after Dday - That the two of us are the only people in the world who will decide if we R or D. And that we would need to work together better if either of us wanted a real shot at R.

We embraced, she held me in a way that I longed to feel and I told her I’d see her in 3 days. I drove to the airport feeling content that I at least left town on calm and level headed terms with her. We spoke on the phone both nights I was out of town and I returned home Friday morning 10/11 just in time for our ARC appointment that she had scheduled.

The 3 days away felt refreshing to me. I wasn’t stressed with having to play pretend that everything was fine in front of our kids, neighbors and friends. I wasn’t concerned that she might be communicating with her AP. I didn’t feel any urgency to ask her questions about details of her A. I was immersed in my work during the days and reassured by conversations with her during the evenings. On the flight home I listened to “How to Help Your Spouse Recover From Your Affair” by Linda McDonald.

I walked into the ARC session as relaxed and detached from the outcome of this shitshow as I’ve ever been. Our ARC immediately noted my “emotional posture” as being the most positive that he’d ever seen me in. Said that he literally had tears in his eyes admiring my strength and emotional fortitude especially considering how confrontational and upsetting our previous session was. I did feel calm, in control, but aloof to caring what would happen to my marriage.

The ARC then dug in, directing all of his questions to my WW. She spent the first 20 minutes talking about her dead brother and all the pain she was in because of his tragic death. I sat in silence, completely unsurprised that she would focus on this rather than her A. Then the ARC began his strategy to ask her about my feelings, if she could understand how I might feel pain similar to what she is feeling after her actions caused me so much trauma, how the pain I’m feeling was equal or greater to any sadness she was feeling.

She opened up out of her shell for the first time. She talked about her shame, her disbelief that she did what she did, her sadness that she was the one who caused me so much pain and ruined our marriage. She explained that when she sees me struggling, being openly depressed or when I ask her direct questions about experiences during her A that she feels the shame, embarrassment and guilt so she shuts down and doesn’t want to talk to me about what she did.

A lot of this had to be coached or coaxed out of her by the ARC. She did a poor job of articulating her words and ARC was happy to suggest words/feelings for her to grasp. I found this frustrating as it felt disingenuous for her to simply repeat his words and claim them as her own. But it was nice to finally at least hear her say things that I have waited over 2 months for her to say.

ARC told my WW that she needed to work on getting to this deep emotionally vulnerable place to talk with me about her A. I noted that it took nearly an hour of his probing and him putting words in her mouth to get there. ARC agreed it would be tough to get my WW into a place where she would open up enough to talk about A, told my WW she had lots of work to do.

When I was asked by ARC about my WW's words I stated that this was the closest she has come to appearing to be contrite.  But that it still did not feel like remorse.  I explained that I still felt she was sorry for herself (regret) but has not yet attempted to understand how bad I feel and feel genuinely sorry for how she hurt me (remorse).  I also told him that I had a really hard time being "nice" to my WW especially after reading "No More Mr. Nice Guy".  I shared something from that book that resonated with me, the fact that I had so many "unspoken contracts" in my relationship with my WW.  For example, I would ALWAYS come straight home after work to help her out with the kids - never going out for a happy hour, meeting up with friends to socialize or just taking any time for myself. Ever.  I would do this for her without asking if it was what she wanted or expected.  And I would feel like a good husband and father because it seemed like the "nice" thing to do.  But I never communicated with her that I was doing this for her, to share kid caring duties, take my turn preparing dinner during the week, play with kids, help with bathtime/bedtime routines.  And because I never shared this with her, it was an "unspoken contract" that she was unaware of and didn't realize that I had an expectation of her to be grateful and appreciative of me giving up my personal freedoms in exchange for helping to ease her primary childcare provider duties.  In my mind she would see my dedication to her and our family by these actions, but in reality she never even noticed or had any inkling to thank me for putting her needs and family time ahead of my own needs.

ARC really jumped on this, but it came at the end of our session.  I feel like he's going to use this as some way to empathize with my WW or try and make me understand "how" she could have done what she did.  I know I am guilty of the "unspoken contracts" to a large degree, but I am going to have a really hard time giving any credence to that as a means of justifying or explaining her A.

She asked if she could come back to sleep with me in our bedroom, I caved and said yes.

We had a few ups and downs over the weekend. I broke down in bed Saturday night and cried like a baby for the first time since a few days after Dday.  My WW held me in bed as I sobbed, I asked her over and over how she could have done what she did to me.  She shut down, wouldn't or couldn't get back to the place with the ARC where she talked openly about her A and her feelings.  So I got angry and stormed out of the bedroom to sleep on the couch downstairs.  We played pretend in front of the neighbors on Sunday, I took the week off of work and drove the family up to Estes Park to celebrate our kids being on fall break.  Rented a cabin for a couple nights, played pretend in front of the kids all day and avoided talking to my WW about her A since all she does is shut down when I bring it up with her.  I was despondent by Thursday's (10/17) drive home, depressed and detached from her the whole day.  I'd bring up something about her A, she'd shut down and I'd be more sad.

Just in time for Friday's (10/18) return trip to the ARC.  Where, before my WW could lead off about her grief from her dead brother, she brought up how hard it is to deal with me when I'm acting so sad, like when I was despondent on the drive home from Estes.  It coincided with hearing the song "Your Kiss is on My List" by Hall & Oates.  It made me feel shitty to hear it because my WW emailed her AP the YouTube video of that song.  That used to be a song that my WW and I enjoyed together and had a special meaning to us but she ruined it.  ARC dug in again to WW, pushing her towards the place where she could feel her guilt and shame, she offered me less contrition than the previous week, but it didn't take as long for her to get there.

The only significant breakthrough was that I was able to tell the ARC that I felt that he was directing me towards Reconciliation and that I was under the impression that we were speaking to him for Affair Recovery - and that after a few months I would decide whether to pursue R or D.  I also was able to tell him that I felt like these sessions felt like they were all on her (WW's) terms.  That my job to be "nice" to the person who destroyed me was hard to swallow.  ARC countered that if WW gives me the remorse that I need, then it will be on my terms not hers.

Ultimately I am happy that I went back to the ARC.  He finally began to call WW out for doing such awful things to me, pushing her to open up to me and getting some (albeit small) results of contrition. He also kept reminding me that I need to slow down, to take my time and not rush my questions to WW, not rush my recovery and to take things slowly.  I have a really hard time doing this, it's against my nature to sit still while in torment, I continue to read as many books/blogs/SI postings as I can to help me.  I understand that I cannot rush the recovery process, I still struggle with understanding how long I can accept tiny bits of progress when I need so much.  It feels like a misting of water being sprayed against a wildfire.  I need so much more from WW but she has so little to give me.

I don't think your wife is a candidate for reconciliation. You're dragging her kicking and screaming just to try and get her to feel something for you, but she can't even properly verbalize contrition. She isn't even willing to give you words, much less action, and words flow from the mouths of cheaters like syrup of ipecac.

She isn't going to "get it" as soon as she's able to say sorry with a particularly misty look in her eyes. I think her getting it is a very long way away (if she ever does, which I'm not sure she ever will which is a reality that isn't talked about near enough here IMHO) and I would recommend turning this train back towards divorce, rather than reconciliation.

Honestly seems like she is just trying to outlast you on this recovery. Reminds me of George Foreman in the fight with Ali. She's Ali, playing rope a dope, waiting for you to punch yourself out.

Did your ARC suggest that you cancel your unspoken contracts with your WW?

Stop doing things for her benefit or for her security in the M, make her ask for and earn those considerations...in other words, take time to do for yourself first, not for the M and certainly not your WW.

Go out with friends after work, schedule activities for yourself on the weekends if you are not already busy with your kids, etc.

Let her see you having a life without her.

[This message edited by OrdinaryDude at 8:28 PM, October 21st (Monday)]

[This message edited by skerzoid at 8:42 PM, October 21st (Monday)]

Quite frankly your ARC sounds like what I suspected: lipstick on a pig. A tarted up MC, subtly steering you toward "small r" (rug sweeping) as a foundation for an ersatz "big R" (Reconciliation) whilst kid-gloving your wife into a few tidbits of spoon-fed insincere words of nopology. Why are you wasting your money?

I completely get the "unspoken contract" is a form of poor communication, but in the end it involves doing nice things. If your WW together with the ARC is going to suggest that you helping out with the kids is what caused her to fuck another man, they're fulla shyte.

As to the recently deceased family black sheep, your WW is clearly milking that as a distraction to avoid the reality of her cheating. Your good feeling from the trip away from her, followed by your bad feeling after spending time with her, should be your clue.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 5:17 AM, October 22nd (Tuesday)]

I’ve seen wives who are extremely remorseful after contractor affairs. Yours isn’t.

You have been married 9 years. I would recommend legally separating. This will help you with alimony negotiations as it won’t be a 10 year marriage.

PLUS at 10 years of marriage. she qualifies for social security as your spouse. Not that you are actually paying her the money. BUT!!! It’s the whole principle to me.

Your wife liked the game and the attention.

She isn’t opening up to you because she doesn’t want you having the attention. It’s why she is shutting you down. Acknowledging your feelings gives you the attention.

THIS

You have been married 9 years. I would recommend legally separating. This will help you with alimony negotiations as it won’t be a 10 year marriage.

Elvis, it would really help you to see a lawyer and address the issue with alimony like the two posters above mentioned. Even if you don't file anything today. It may feel like you have plenty of time to decide on R or D but if there's something as big as years of alimony on the line, you may actually only have a matter of months. What if in 6 months, your WW has made little to no progress and you file for D just after your 10th anniversary? Will you have screwed yourself over by waiting when the result is the same? That's important information that you need to get right away.

And remember - you can legally separate but still see the ARC and consider R. This is entirely about protecting YOU in this aftermath.

I have heard and read of wives (betrayed and wayward) being advised by attorneys to "fake it until you make it" to 10 years if it was close enough for them to stomach it. You shouldn't put it past your WW to be thinking this way. Filing now sets the date and the clock in motion PRIOR to the 10 year mark.

You can also reconcile after divorce. There are members here who have done just that. Just because you choose to divorce does not mean your WW will never be seen or heard from again. You will have to co-parent with her to raise your children anyway so you will see her until the kids are in their teens or legal adults.

There is plenty to ponder R but not a lot of time to take legal action to protect yourself from her actions of betrayal. If she wants to R bad enough she would do it regardless if you D or not. That is, if she ever becomes remorseful. In your situation you don't have time to see if that day ever arrives.

Right now your priority is YOU and your kids. Your WW opted out of the comfort and security you provided the moment she chose betrayal. She is still an unsafe person to you.

I had a huge post explaining how your ARC is screwing you over, but you won't listen. So instead, answer these questions.

What is the ARC doing to figure out your wife's "Whys"?

Why did she cheat?

What in her made her think she deserved sex outside of your marriage?

A smart strong woman, like she pretends to be, would have shut that loser down. Instead she pursued that idiot. Why?

What you are doing in ARC, she should be doing without you there! I bet she was abused in some way or some other crap (Not an excuse, I know) and she is taking it out on your marriage. The mask of bull shit she puts on is a clear arrow she expects people to pretend things are fine including/especially you. IC will fix that better because hopefully she will be forced to get open faster because without you there she doesn't have to lie quite so much. She puts on the mask because she can't accept she abused you.

That is why she put on the mask to "Be There" while you cried. She didn't want that, but she sees that frosty holding you as love. You need more than that and she doesn't want to give it to you. You need her to cry with you!

She even mentioned she was mad you let your mask slip a little by "Not talking to her" while you drove home upset.

Too many red flags. I believe she is still in contact with OM. Check her phone records. Consider a VAR in her car or somewhere she would normally talk on the phone (kitchen, den...)

Her reaction to seeing you at the funeral. Her inability to "get" what she has done to you, the kids, the marriage..., Her lack of remorse. It seems more like buying herself more time (to see what happens to OM) than just trying to rugsweep.

You aren't ever going to get anywhere with the counselor/marriage if they are still in contact.

I believe that you need to focus on healing yourself. It seems clear that your WW is not going to assist you at all in this. For her, protecting herself if far more important than helping you and so she is NOT going to give you what you need.

There is no indication that your WW is going to change and really work towards R. I have to agree with the others that you should file. If you WW has a revelation, you can always stop things later.

You need to focus on healing yourself, not the M and not with the help of your WW. Focus on you. YOU have the strength to heal yourself. You just have to find it. You are taking a lot of positive steps.

unfortunately, your wife is playing the victim in this.

The counselling sessions are a waste of time at this point.Your wife is putting in the barest of effort to save your marriage. If you continue with this route, you are going to be regularly frustrated, and this may take awhile.

In reality, she spent more effort, and commitment in the affair, then in this recovery. You can guarantee she was not holding back meeting the other man's needs.

Sorry to have hit you with a bit of 2 by 4.

look at what you need to do to get out of infidelity. Your goal..to get out of infidelity. Take control of this. WHAT DO YOU NEED TO DO TO GET OUT OF INFIDELITY.

Right now you have little control, and are being manipulated.

Hope this helps.

You have a 3 and 5 year. Your wife is banging a former felon with 4 D's. You protect your kids now. You file. You ask for full custody. You expose to protect your family and get support.

Do not gamble your kids.

The only significant breakthrough was that I was able to tell the ARC that I felt that he was directing me towards Reconciliation and that I was under the impression that we were speaking to him for Affair Recovery - and that after a few months I would decide whether to pursue R or D. I also was able to tell him that I felt like these sessions felt like they were all on her (WW's) terms. That my job to be "nice" to the person who destroyed me was hard to swallow. ARC countered that if WW gives me the remorse that I need, then it will be on my terms not hers.

Sure. If the ARC works with her for 6, 12, or 18 months, she might be able to gin up some remorse by then. Hell, she might even learn empathy. But after that amount of time, will you even care?

There are basically four outcomes possible:

1) Divorced and happy.

2) Divorced and miserable.

3) Married and happy.

4) Married and miserable.

You will hopefully end up with either option 1 or option 3... but don't think for a moment that those other two options don't happen. Right now, I think your ARC has you on track for option 4, the worst possible option. And yeah, I think his method will work. I think, given time, your WW might be able to scrape up some genuine contrition... but I also think that by the time that happens, you're unlikely to care. Every day that she "shuts down", she puts her own comfort ahead of yours and reaffirms your insecurity.

What's missing from your ARC's methodology is CONSEQUENCES. Your WW has had none. In fact, she's had just the opposite, lots of emotional support to try and coax some kind of feeling from her. That's going to burn as time goes by, like rubbing salt in an open wound.

I'm NOT saying that you should give up.. far from it. What I am saying is that you should be working option 1 and option 3... equally. Send your WW back into the workforce, work with a good attorney to develop an exit strategy and keep that plan in your back pocket. This is YOUR life, no one else's. And you have the right and the authority to say what's good enough for you. Because really, when you boil it down, that's the question, isn't it? Is your relationship, as it stands, good enough for YOU???

We get bogged down in the potential of things. And that's okay, so long as we haven't put all our eggs in that one basket and so long as it's a temporary state of being. You can take some time to examine potential, but if you take too long, it's a tar pit, trapping you into a life where happiness is always on the horizon and never within reach. Don't get stuck with option 4. Keep your options open and viable until you've resolved the question of "potential".

Strength to you.

Brother Elvis

How are u doing?

Seems like there is very little remorse.

I feel the death of her brother has canceled out her focus, now is looking at her family instead of her marriage for R.

Ultimately she has to and is responsible for her actions. This includes all of the deception and lies to meet up with the felon POS.

Has she started to address these with you?

It is one thing to raise it with ARC but another to continue the discussion and work outside the confines of the office. Sounds like she just doesn’t want to work on it. Just rug sweep.

Hopefully the fog has lifted and she is on board the R train.

Has she justified to you how she thought it was as ok to throw away 12 years of marriage and her children for a balding erectile problem man? Talk about downgrading life.

Did she think if the A was discovered she would be able to sweet talk her way back into your marriage?

Sounds like it went from a client to deep in the A very quickly, then plateaued to ongoing. Their ‘kind of love’ comments is a issue, the sexting and mutual mastebating well that is a conversation killer.

Also her comments she made on the crime stoppers re not having a chance to have a family.

How can she publicly make those comments when she chose to throw away her family.

Due to the lack of remorse, her failure to address the issues openly, her sexting, naked pictures, sex videos, her reluctance to build trust and support you.

I feel it is time to D. There can be no R, unless she puts her big girl pants on and starts. She isn’t accountable as yet, time to wake her up!

Good luck

[This message edited by Buffer at 7:48 PM, October 27th (Sunday)]

Where, before my WW could lead off about her grief from her dead brother, she brought up how hard it is to deal with me when I'm acting so sad, like when I was despondent on the drive home from Estes.

She has an affair and you are hard to deal with?

Smells like the "entitled princess syndrome". You are so lucky to have me. I cheated so what? Get over it already.

Where is it written that you must R?