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He then asked if there was anything I wanted to say. I said "yes, I don't want to leave." I had to walk out because the tears started to come again.

LD, I want to come back to this because this really stuck out with me and I have to agree with RedHeadTemper.

First, let me say that it’s absolutely ok to upset about the S and leaving your home and sharing time with your daughter. It’s ok to cry. Lord knows I have done plenty of crying myself. My concern is that while you are consumed with your own grief, you are missing opportunities to communicate empathy and remorse with your BH. When he asked if there is anything you had to say, he opened a door to have a productive conversation. Rather than stepping through that door, you turned and ran the opposite direction.

It is torturous for a BS to be vulnerable with their WS. It’s incredibly risky to expose the level of pain to the very person that has caused it. Don’t get so consumed in your own pain that you miss your opportunity to get inside. If he cracks that door, even just a bit, be aware of it and show him actions that demonstrate that he can be safe to continue to do so.

If you wait for an open invitation I’m afraid you may never find one. You can tell him you don’t want to go until you are blue in the face. He needs to know why he should take that leap of faith with you. He needs to know why he is valuable to you. He needs to know how you would plan to make him feel safe and loved and he needs to know why you will be worthy of his. He needs to see that you are willing to be vulnerable and honest with him.

So often we confuse shame with remorse. Not necessarily on a conscious level, we say to ourselves “look how bad I feel. I’m an awful person. I deserve these terrible things” while tucking our tails between our legs and lowering our heads in shame. Shame is very self directed. Remorse is other focused. “I can see how that would make you feel...”, share the work you have done voluntarily, bring up specific instances that you know are particularly hurtful and why and apologize for specific actions.

You have choices to make, LD. Decide what it is you really want and do the work to get there. This isn’t a time for complacency. Sure, self care is important, but time is critical and you have to be diligent.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this! A hundred times.

while you are consumed with your own grief, you are missing opportunities to communicate empathy and remorse with your BH.....

He needs to know how you would plan to make him feel safe and loved and he needs to know why you will be worthy of his. He needs to see that you are willing to be vulnerable and honest with him.....

share the work you have done voluntarily, bring up specific instances that you know are particularly hurtful and why and apologize for specific actions.

Every time you avail yourself of these opportunities, you are supporting his healing and IMHO, are taking action that that help heal/change you. You can imagine what the flip side means (at least to a BS).

IMO, some time with NC could be a good thing. My WH and I hadn't planned that, but he made a major faux paux on our 1st date and I instituted NC. I highly recommend writing in your journal whenever you wish you could reach out during the period of NC (e.g., write him a little note that you won't send).

[This message edited by gmc94 at 12:25 PM, October 27th, 2019 (Sunday)]

I am absolutely full of shame and guilt. Brown's "I am a bad person" and "I did a bad thing," I feel both every single day. While I definitely wallow in my own shame, I try really hard to just do that in private. I feel like I acknowledge and focus on his feelings when we are speaking, but I could be completely wrong in that assumption. I know that I am always thinking about what he is feeling and how I would feel if I were in his position.

For the things that he needs to know from me, I do tell him, but all of the lying I did has made it to where it is impossible for him to believe me. Which I understand. Why should he believe me when I say that he is the only person I want when for 6 months I had an affair? I of course know why, but he can't see into my head or heart.

I know that I will have to prove to him each day just how much he means to me and how badly I want to be with him. I gave up on us during the a, I won't give up on us now.

WOE & GMC94 - such good, good advice for you.

I am absolutely full of shame and guilt. Brown's "I am a bad person" and "I did a bad thing," I feel both every single day. While I definitely wallow in my own shame, I try really hard to just do that in private. I feel like I acknowledge and focus on his feelings when we are speaking, but I could be completely wrong in that assumption. I know that I am always thinking about what he is feeling and how I would feel if I were in his position.

I can relate to what you are saying here. I was in this state for many, many months post DDAY. I just want to say that what you have to concentrate the most on when you have time on your own is - What are you going to do moving forward to eradicate this shame? Here are some things I did:

1. Healing the past in IC. (Shame is what got us into this mess, not feeling worthy, not having self love and self respect - all of that has the root of unhealed shame from the past)

2. Setting goals and making commitments and following through on them (this changed my narrative from I am a bad person to I am a person who makes both good and bad decisions. I am in control of that. It also gave me recent history to be proud of)

3. Finding things that puts your mind completely on that thing. (Mindfullness and presence can be a helpful reprieve from depression and shame, it's a breath of fresh air). I can do this when I clean house, when I run, when I make art, when I write. Find your things that do that)

4. It sounds really meaningless but try and write about three things you are thankful for today. They can be small things. But, science shows this rewires our brain, increases joy and optimism. You need joy and optimism to fuel the hard changes you are trying to make. You need softer places to fall as you work on the harder things. Do this, religiously.

5. Practice empathy. I did that by responding to people on here. I did it by doing things the way WOE and GMC is describing. I saw Sayyouwont go wrote a letter from her husbands perspective - maybe try to do that in draft form and add to it when different things occur to you as to what you did to him.

6. Educate yourself. Read (sounds like you are looking at brene brown right now - excellent! I couldn't read as much at first because I couldn't focus, audiobooks or podcasts in my car were helpful, sometimes I could fully focus on them, sometimes I think I was getting some of it from osmosis)

You. CAN. Do. This! We all want you to succeed!

[This message edited by hikingout at 11:57 AM, October 28th (Monday)]

Hikingout,

I did the empathy exercise and wrote a letter to myself from his perspective. I gave it to him, but I'm not sure if he has read it.

I'm old school and need an actual book in my hand. I might try some podcasts though.

I know that I will have to prove to him each day just how much he means to me and how badly I want to be with him. I gave up on us during the a, I won't give up on us now.

You have said that before when you were drastically minimizing your actions. You finally confessed most of it to the polygraph examiner (not even to your husband). So what are you going to do differently to show him? How are you going to show him now that you are moving out and going NC? I am sure he is hoping and expecting you to figure it out, despite all the seemingly insurmountable walls he has put in the way.

Honestly, I am still trying to figure that out. Since he is wanting NC for awhile and I won't be there each day, I'm not sure how he will see. He's not sure yet on when our first meeting will be.

I am always thinking about what he is feeling and how I would feel if I were in his position.

I don't know what this looks like from the WS perspective. I can say that in my situation, this did not help anything. My WH would obsess about it, but it just sunk him deeper into himself and did not produce any increased empathy. He may tell me I'm wrong, but from where I sit, it looked to me like just another (quicker) on-ramp to the spiral of shame.

WS may have a better view.

Also, i'd re-think giving him the letters or notes or whatever. If he's asking for NC then respect it.

And ask yourself as to any interaction with him: how much is trying to really help him, and how much is trying to help yourself feel better? Not saying you don't need to work on yourself/get yourself feeling better, but right now, do that on your time, not his.

Again, can only speak from my sitch, but my WH seemed to be spending inordinate amounts of time trying to come up with the "right"' words or some sweeping speech or action that would sort of be the turning point. But it doesn't work that way. If he'd done one small thing every day, consistently - even if it wasn't "about" me (like a gratitude journal) - I think it would have been a more productive use of energy than kicking himself for not being able to find the perfect "you complete me" type speech (which would likely not have garnered anything close to the response he'd hoped for -and then he's back in the "i'm a failure, i can't do it" mode, which just makes it all go to shit).

I think HOs gratitude suggestion is HUGE. It's recommended by just about everyone for rewiring. I'll slip back into my broken record for a minute on Rick Hanson's HEAL steps (google it). It's the same concept, but goes a bit deeper, and ANYONE can find three things in a day that feel good (even if it's just being able to pee after frantically searching for the bathroom in Target) and can take a moment to actually experience feeling good. example: one of my moments of joy yesterday was late last night. We had chili for dinner and I had the forethought to bring a glass of ice water when I went to bed. When I got thirst about 30 min later, it felt awesome to quench that post-chili thirst with a tall glass of cold water. It felt wonderful in my mouth, in my throat, and in my tummy. I marveled at how good it felt to have it be COLD and not some old water from the night before. I really took the time to FEEL it - the water, the coolness, and the sense of satiating a thirst. I can smile at myself right now and remember it like it was 5 min ago. So both the water last night, and the replay today are helping some gratitude building neurons fire - and the neurons that fire together, wire together.

Since he is wanting NC for awhile and I won't be there each day, I'm not sure how he will see.

You still need to reach back to the part where you said he can't see in your head and your heart. You should see how broken you are because you don't have a new head and heart. You need to fix those parts.

I gave up on us during the a, I won't give up on us now.

Start with answering this: Why did you give up the first time? What is going to stop you giving up this time? Was it that you took for granted what you had before? Answer these questions to see the start of how you become safe for him.

Now to him not trusting you. He is never going to trust you the same way again. He will just become less afraid of you lying. I don't really trust my wife. She did things similar to you and still lies. I just have given up on getting everything and instead focus on why I know she won't have an affair again. If that breaks again, I then also know, I probably will be a lot colder and harder if I reconcile. More likely I will just divorce and let her figure out how to get me to remarry her. So, trust isn't everything. You can have love without trust. Do I get a little scared when she is out late with her friends. Yup. She knows that and knows that when she does that on accident she can expect me to be triggered when she gets home. She also knows once I calm down I will be back to loving her. So worry less about what your recovery will look like.

Focus more on what is wrong in you and how you are going to fix it and show him. Last time he made you leave for a few weeks. You reset the clock. Why are you scared for this time? Trust him and that big heart.

gmc94 said:

I think HOs gratitude suggestion is HUGE. It's recommended by just about everyone for rewiring. I'll slip back into my broken record for a minute on Rick Hanson's HEAL steps (google it). It's the same concept, but goes a bit deeper, and ANYONE can find three things in a day that feel good (even if it's just being able to pee after frantically searching for the bathroom in Target) and can take a moment to actually experience feeling good.

I've been reading Rick Hanson's book, Resilient . I agree that it's great for understanding how we can change the wiring in our brains. I recommend it to BSs and WWs as well. My BS and I have been focusing on 3 good things with our wine in the evenings for about 10 years now and it's been really helpful.

Hi LifeDestroyer.

Normally I do not show a lot of sympathy for waywards, but I have to say I admire your willingness to put yourself through hell in order to prove yourself to your husband. I can really sence the pain you are feeling in your posts.

I do not think you are the kind of person who cheated out of any kind of malice. I think that you experienced a perfect storm of insecurities that led you to do something really really stupid. You realize this and now all you want to do is to have the chance to take it all back and make it right. I think sometimes we fail to realize that there is pain in being a wayward too.

If your husband is a reasonable man (as it sounds like he is), I have faith that he will eventually see this and have to soften his stand.

Right now he is in a lot of pain. He is reacting to that pain by wanting to see you hurt as much as he does. This is why he is pushing you away. Do everything that you can bare to accept his punishments and continue to reach out to him constructively.

If you do this consistently over a potentially long period of time, I think he will eventually forgive.

In the meantime, continue to do everything you can to make yourself worthy of that forgiveness.

Behave and take care of yourself...and good luck!

don't know what this looks like from the WS perspective. I can say that in my situation, this did not help anything. My WH would obsess about it, but it just sunk him deeper into himself and did not produce any increased empathy. He may tell me I'm wrong, but from where I sit, it looked to me like just another (quicker) on-ramp to the spiral of shame

I can definitely see that. I have felt my mind really spiral into shame when I think about what I've done and how he must feel. It feels like heavy weight just sinking inside of me. I then get very depressed and disgusted with myself. So, yes I can see how it wouldn't really help things.

I gave him the letter the same night that I realized that I hadn't taken responsibility for my affair, by all of the lying. Right now we are not NC. That will start once I move out.

I have felt like a failure the entire time. I never liked to fail. He and I are very competitive people, hell even our daughter has taken on that family gene. None of us like to fail at things. I have also always been the type of person who wanted the quick results and who would quit when those magic results didn't happen. Dieting, exercising, learning how to crochet (I don't even know what I was thinking with that one). Every single day now is the exact opposite.

Thank you Serpico, and hopefully you will be right.

I have felt my mind really spiral into shame when I think about what I've done and how he must feel. It feels like heavy weight just sinking inside of me. I then get very depressed and disgusted with myself.

And I guess my point, as a BW, is that this is not remorse or empathy. I can imagine it feels confusing to a WS. All the time my WH would say "but all I do is think about you, all day long", and in his mind that was remorse/empathy. But as long as it's about the WS feeling sorry/disgusted/ashamed/etc with themselves, it's not. From my view, it didn't matter if all he did was think about me - if all that "thinking" does is place him in his role as victim (even if he's a victim of himself). Again, maybe a WS can describe it better.

It's not always about me feeling ashamed and disgusted in myself. I also feel complete sadness for what he is going through. I feel anger for putting him in this situation. I feel pain for the hurt that I have inflicted on him. I try to imagine what he is feeling, but that can only go so far as I've never been in his place. I try to think of what I would want him to be doing if he were the WS, but what I would want and what he wants is different. Also, it's hypothetical because I have no idea how I would actually act.

Empathy is the ability to understand someone's feelings from their perspective.

Since I have never been in his shoes, I can only try to understand what it is he is feeling. I myself have only felt a small fraction of what he must be experiencing. When the incident occurred years ago, I felt a huge amount of pain, anger, and sadness for a long time. I pushed it all down and rug swept because I told myself it was part of the lifestyle. That happened once while I had a pa for 5 months. When he let me read the texts he had with the OBS, I felt that empty pit in my stomach seeing and knowing that he truly enjoyed talking to another woman. Here I was reading texts from just over a few day period and getting sad, while he saw the hundreds of times I texted the om. Then again I felt sadness and jealousy when he found emotional support with a woman from this site and felt that he needed to stop it. Yet, I had found emotional support with the om for 6 months.

The feelings I had, I had to put in perspective to what he must be feeling. Everything I felt multiplied 100 times.

Posted by Lifedestroyer:

I hope you are right. I hope he can or will see that I do love him and respect him, even though my actions during the affair were the opposite.

Your disrespect for your husband went way past the end of the affair, at least up to your confessions made to the polygraph operator, where you told a stranger your betrayals before you told him.

You won't be respecting him until you have told him or at least have written down every last detail you recall, and give him the option of reading it.

Then again I felt sadness and jealousy when he found emotional support with a woman from this site and felt that he needed to stop it. Yet, I had found emotional support with the om for 6 months.

The feelings I had, I had to put in perspective to what he must be feeling. Everything I felt multiplied 100 times.

No, what he felt is not 100 times worse than what you felt.

They are not the same thing at all. There is no comparison, in type of feelings or in magnitude.

Lifedestroyer, you need to take the time you are alone to reflect.

Reflect. Not lament, or beat yourself up.

Try to see things for what they really are, no excuses or rationalizations.

This is a muscle that you can build, and it will help you live authentically.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 11:25 PM, October 29th (Tuesday)]

Keep it up LD, i think you are doing great. You are working on deepening empathy and remorse. Work in progress still counts. You are also realizing how this likely will be a D and that is part of letting go of outcome and focusing on BH’s needs, despite your clear and understandable desire for R.

You won't be respecting him until you have told him or at least have written down every last detail you recall, and give him the option of reading it.

This was really important for me. My WH has not done this, and is a huge factor in our disconnect (and I suspect eventual D). I would hope that a lesson was learned by LD with the last min confession with the polygraph person, and this would already be on her radar.

I don't know if WS agree, but I believe that writing it all down is an important aspect of a WS getting it, owning it, and WS healing. WS seem to be conflict avoidant by nature and have "issues" with reality. Writing down every damn awful thing is a way to face it, and process it, and move on. It's a way to purge every damn secret that should never have existed to begin with. you can add to it as you remember things.

IMO, a WS should do it for themselves. Because they have the courage to face all the gory details. Because getting it out of one's head and on paper can be a way to make room in the brain for other things that will need the space.

Bonus to the extent it gives your BS any relief.

When he let me read the texts he had with the OBS, I felt that empty pit in my stomach seeing and knowing that he truly enjoyed talking to another woman. Here I was reading texts from just over a few day period and getting sad, while he saw the hundreds of times I texted the om. Then again I felt sadness and jealousy when he found emotional support with a woman from this site and felt that he needed to stop it. Yet, I had found emotional support with the om for 6 months.

I'm a bit confused here. He "truly enjoyed" texting her to discuss details of the sexual acts you engaged in with her husband? I doubt that, LD. He may have found it cathartic to talk to people who understand the exact nature of the pain he's in, but trauma bonding isn't flirting. I think it's good that he could tell the difference and establish boundaries to keep it from heading in that direction.

If you came here with this as an open and vulnerable topic -- "I know it's unfair, but I'm struggling with the emotional intimacy that trauma bonding can create in a BS" -- I wouldn't say this. But sliding those references into the conversation offhandedly feels like you're insinuating that he is engaging in mild affair behavior. That, to me, reads like self-justification -- "I know a tiny bit of what it's like to be a BS because he's making me a tiny bit of a BS, and I think you all should know that." Especially since you tied it to the long ago event that did, IMO, make you a BS.

The way you brought this up reads as manipulative to me. That's something that waywards need to call each other on. Manipulation comes so naturally to us that sometimes we don't even know we're doing it.

I didn't say he enjoyed texting about what her wh and I did. He enjoyed texting her because she understood what he was feeling. And I'm certainly not saying he was engaging in a an affair. I was trying to say how I am trying to understand what he may be feeling as best as I can. I put my examples to say that I have felt my own, but they don't compare to his.