SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

DoormatSight, you're making some pretty sweeping generalizations about what every BS needs and about what constitutes proof that R is hopeless. I can speak from my own experience that an RA is not the panacea you advertise, but I don't know your story. Did you have an RA that helped you? Are you in/working towards R?

If it's human nature to feel this way, and there's no other way to feel desired other than externally:

Why are BS so confused about why WS cheat? You just answered the question yourself with "it's human nature to want that" and "it feels amazing to be wanted and desired."

Exactly. The remorseful WS here are not attacking a BS. We are calling out wayward logic. This kind of self-justification is like a bat signal over Gotham to us.

RAs shortly after DDay get a lot of empathy from me. I don't see them as the right thing to do at all. I don't think that they fix the problem. But, I also don't put them in the same category as the original infidelity.

I agree with you in your case, Dee, and I think that most people here understand the kind of shock you were in. No one blinks at you posting in BetrayedWomenz as a madhatter, and rightly so. I'm also a madhatter, but if I showed up there, it would totally compromise the safety of the "no WW" dynamic. Not all As are created equal.

I find it so odd and suspicious that some posters join simply to post on RA threads.

how else are you you suppose to feel desired

because if you're a healthy person you know that your WS's affair had nothing to do with you. Nor does it really have to do with the AP. IT has to do with SOMETHING LACKING IN THE WS!!! So, knowing that, why would I question my desire? If anything, I'm more desirable as a spouse because my WS is a mental wreck and I'm not choosing to act out. Who's the more desirous spouse then?

because if you're a healthy person you know that your WS's affair had nothing to do with you. Nor does it really have to do with the AP. IT has to do with SOMETHING LACKING IN THE WS!!! So, knowing that, why would I question my desire? If anything, I'm more desirable as a spouse because my WS is a mental wreck and I'm not choosing to act out. Who's the more desirous spouse then?

I'm gonna have to disagree with you a bit here.

Maybe it's a gender thing. It's been proven in multiple studies, tests, social experiments, etc, that, on average, women have a much, much easier time finding a sexual partner than men do. Now, I understand the statistics "Oh, if a woman is finding a sexual partner, then a man is too", etc, etc, but it doesn't really work like that.

I would bet dollars to donuts that 95% of the women on this forum, BS or WS, could go to a bar ONCE and go home with a dude. If getting a sexual partner is something that makes you feel desirable in a sexual manner, then really, all you have to do is, more or less, take your pick.

Men, on the other hand, when we go out, it's not a question of -if- we'll get rejected, it's a question of -how many times- we'll get rejected. We could be absolutely gorgeous and dressed to the nines, and if we run the gamut, we WILL get shot down. The prevailing advice is to just keep trying until you find a woman who is attracted enough to you to say "Sure, why not?"

Now, I'm not, by any means, saying that one SHOULD base one's worth or sense of desirability on whether or not a stranger would screw you. Not at all. However, the feelings we all face as BSs of rejection, isolation, a lack of desirability, etc, -can- be alleviated by finding a new partner. I am of the mind that it should be done once the relationship is over and R is off the table, but that's me. I certainly don't judge those of us who, in the heat of the moment, in the depths of their initial shock, decided to affirm to themselves that yes, they are indeed still sexual beings that have at least that superficial worth.

It might be a flimsy piece of driftwood floating by, but when you're stranded in the water of infidelity, I wouldn't blame anyone for taking ahold of anything to help keep them afloat.

Okay, but if an RA is truly not as bad as the initial A itself, how does that accomplish "justice"?

Oh, it definitely is. Any affair is bad. But the sense of "justice" I was talking about refers to "evening things out".

The WS has a machete and stabs BS in the chest. So BS grab a steak knife and stabs WS in the leg. That's justice? You really feel like there isn't an imbalance anymore?

This analogy doesn't work regarding an affair. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

You do realize that keeping score and holding onto resentments in the marriage is how many WS justify their affairs in the first place, right? I know I did that as a WS. I felt so justified because my spouse was imperfect and had also damaged the marriage in many ways.

Again, apple and oranges. An affair can cause an affair, not the things you are referring to. That happened due to your own weakness.

The idea of keeping score is faulty and unhealthy in the first place and the only way to heal the marriage is for both partners to move beyond that.

And for some people, that will only happen when the settle the score.

Have you ever had an affair doormat? Or did you have one after dday?

Why does this matter?

I am not making up excuses. All of these things are either my experience or some I have routinely read about. Have you ever been to an ow forum? These women will do anything to land their married man. It’s a fucked up person who goes off with a married person, AP’s are shitty people. And yes - I was a shitty person, but it takes one to know one.

I'm didn't disagree with everything you said and yes, a woman who goes after a MM does have certain problem she is not addressing but that works in the favor of a BS who is only looking to even the score and not settle.

I have no reason to provide an excuse. My h didn’t have any affairs. I have no reason to tell anyone any of this other than the fact that through my own experience I have learned the utter destruction affairs cause not only to others but to the people having them.

Well, you kinda were in that long post. If an RA can help a BS move post the pain and hurt, like it did for Buzzy, there is noting wrong with it and the majority of your post becomes null and void.

Affairs are hollow things that if you need them to feel good you will go back time after time. And then you can leave one shitty person for another. But you are free to do that, sometimes people have to learn these things for themselves

.

I agree, affairs are as bad as you say they are but RA, they are for redemption. Although still wrong, can still help achieve the desired effect.

It matters because I feel that it’s unlikely you have had an affair, or have attempted R by watching your posts. I have had an affair and understand that they might prop you up temporarily they are terribly self destructive and end up making you feel worse about yourself. I have also gone through a lot of the rigors of moving through R. Without the experiences of either you are guessing or projecting a result. And you are shutting down my arguments because I am a ws that you feel is making excuses.

I don’t feel condemnation towards someone who has an RA. My reason for posting to this thread is I don’t feel it’s ever advisable to have an affair. While I understand that a BS has every right to act any way they wish after finding out their spouse had an affair and ripped their heart out, of I can give one person pause not to have an affair then that’s a win. I truly in my heart of hearts feel that there is a much higher risk they will bring many more problems and pain to themselves by doing it.

I have no personal stake in what people are choosing and as I have already said I would R with my H. And this is not my situation.

ETA- it’s too soon too see how it will work out for buzzy. He hasn’t hit remorse yet and has only begun to look at R. By not having an affair it keeps more portions open for the BS.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:44 PM, November 7th (Thursday)]

Oh incarnate - we are different. My desirability is not based on getting laid, it’s having a romantic, passionate long lasting relationship with someone. Hence the mental wreck part. You don’t have to have it all together to have sex. You do to have a relationship. That’s the only thing I would desire.

[This message edited by sewardak at 9:44 PM, November 7th (Thursday)]

It matters because I feel that it’s unlikely you have had an affair, or have attempted R by watching your posts. I have had an affair and understand that they might prop you up temporarily they are terribly self destructive and end up making you feel worse about yourself. I have also gone through a lot of the rigors of moving through R. Without the experiences of either you are guessing or projecting a result. And you are shutting down my arguments because I am a ws that you feel is making excuses.

Again, me having an affair or trying R has nothing to do with the feelings of a BS I am talking about. Well yes, sine you are a WS, you will never understand what a BS feels so by that logic alone, most of what you have said on this topic is unnecessary.

I repeat, you will never understand what a BS goes through.

I don’t feel condemnation towards someone who has an RA. My reason for posting to this thread is I don’t feel it’s ever advisable to have an affair. While I understand that a BS has every right to act any way they wish after finding out their spouse had an affair and ripped their heart out, of I can give one person pause not to have an affair then that’s a win. I truly in my heart of hearts feel that there is a much higher risk they will bring many more problems and pain to themselves by doing it.

And you think a RA will bring more problems due to your wayward thinking of not wanting to suffer what you made you BH suffer. I ask again, what consequences will it bring? And for whom? BS? If it helps a BS gain his confidence again, help him/her move past the pain, what consequences will they suffer?

I have no personal stake in what people are choosing and as I have already said I would R with my H. And this is not my situation.

Seems like you do, given how you are pushing against an RA, even though it might help a BS.

ETA- it’s too soon too see how it will work out for buzzy. He hasn’t hit remorse yet and has only begun to look at R. By not having an affair it keeps more portions open for the BS.

Why would get overcome with remorse exactly? His wife knew exactly what he was doing and he has already said that he did what he did to overcome the emasculation from her affair so that he can try R. I just can't understand what remorse you are talking about.

And FYI, he still has the option to divorce if he wants to. Everything option is still open to him.

A bs who has an affair is considered partly a ws on this site. Some of thier affair related posts are put over in the wayward forum for that reason. My post has nothing to do with understanding what it’s like to be a bs, it’s has to do with understanding what it is to be a ws.

It’s ws thinking that someone else making you feel better will solve a problem long term. I find it insane you think my posts are about not wanting to feel the pain I inflicted. But that’s your opinion, it’s just really not correct. I would take it. I will always know I broke my husband’s heart, our marriage, I will likely never forgive myself for it.

There aren’t any mad hatters here that I have ever seen that do not feel remorse over the response affair they had- unless they divorced . Ask them if you want to know why, I totally understand why. But you aren’t going to listen to a ws- what would I know? And you are right, buzzy can still divorce. What remains to be seen is if he can R if he so chooses to do so. After 14 months of being unapologetic, going to his running club where the woman he fucked is, and never taking any accountability or remorse for it? That’s a recipe for disaster right there. He is going to have some introspective reflection to do and he is going to have to listen to how she feels and try and understand it. In all reality I fear more that his ws hasn’t been accountable in the ways that matter for her to be a long term safe partner.

I am sorry you are a bs, I truly mean that. I am sure you have been in a lot of pain. But, You have not retaliated...why? Honestly, I think it takes a bs who cheats sometimes longer to see the ways the affair effects them because there is so much to process. I just think the better option is not to cheat. And really, why is that a wrong way to feel? It came from making some very bad decisions and living with them.

Again, I do not condemn someone for doing it, I just really feel that for their own sake they might want to think twice. They do bring on similar problems to themselves as a wayward does. Maybe not having quite the same dynamic with the person hey cheated on, but within themselves. You are not a ws, you will never understand. I hope that you won’t ever.

[This message edited by hikingout at 11:03 PM, November 7th (Thursday)]

Oh incarnate - we are different. My desirability is not based on getting laid, it’s having a romantic, passionate long lasting relationship with someone. Hence the mental wreck part. You don’t have to have it all together to have sex. You do to have a relationship. That’s the only thing I would desire.

Absolutely we are different. The male and female experiences are inherently so, unfortunately; I am not disagreeing that ones value should NOT be ties to their sexual appeal. I 100% agree with that sentiment.

But a recurring theme from BHs here that I don't see as often from BWs is the emasculation/feelings of cuckoldry/sexual worthlessness that comes with out partners seeking out extramarital sex.

Were their dicks bigger? Did they give better oral? Were they better with their hands? Did our CWs do things with them that they refused to do with us? Most of the time, the answer to that is yes; it was in my case, and my STBXW told me that the OM was better endowed and more skilled in bed. The pictures I saw dispelled the better endowed part (lol nerd) but the rest was still a massive blow to my self esteem, confidence, and feelings of worth.

I have only ever been with my wife in a consentual way (I am a CSA and SA survivor... it's taken me a while to be able to even say that), and I feel strongly that being with another woman who is attracted to me and enthusiastic in bed would rebuild my confidence and help me throw off the verbal, emotional, and psychological abuse my STBXW is STILL heaping on me. In that way, an RA would have helped me. However, at this point, I am ostensibly single. I can do whatever with whoever, as I am unattached in every way except legally.

Anyways... slight t/j to explain my stance and situation. Carry on.

It may help you incarnate, and nothing is holding you back now to try. But as someone single, your dating pool is different than it would have been as a married man. I think you will find though some of these things you think it would give you is likely temporary. One thing is for sure, your wife was the one lacking in every way. Not you. The further away you get from the situation the more you will be able to see that and Internalize it. It’s still so raw. There will be many ither women who not only appreciate your prowess but all aspects of you. That acceptance will feel deeper and more meaningful if you also believe it for yourself. Your former wife sounds awful, btw. It goes way beyond cheating for her, she sounds malicious, without conscience, And possibly pathological. I hate you are going to have to coparent with her.

[This message edited by hikingout at 11:20 PM, November 7th (Thursday)]

A bs who has an affair is considered partly a ws on this site. Some of thier affair related posts are put over in the wayward forum for that reason. My post has nothing to do with understanding what it’s like to be a bs, it’s has to do with understanding what it is to be a ws.

Yes but my point is directed towards why a BS would try and "level the palying field" by cheating. Once they become a WS, you can take over Mam.

It’s ws thinking that someone else making you feel better will solve a problem long term. I find it insane you think my posts are about not wanting to feel the pain I inflicted. But that’s your opinion, it’s just really not correct. I would take it. I will always know I broke my husband’s heart, our marriage, I will likely never forgive myself for it.

But that is the thing, you won't ever know how it feels because yo are not the one who got her heart broken...

Anyway, justifying an RA is not wayward thinking because of what a revenge affair entails. The person who wants to embark on a RA would never had thought of having one if his or her spouse never had the affair.

So even though both affairs are still affairs based on validation, a RA is the badly needed validation caused by the betrayal of someone who he went to for validation.

There aren’t any mad hatters here that I have ever seen that do not feel remorse over the response affair they had- unless they divorced . Ask them if you want to know why, I totally understand why. But you aren’t going to listen to a ws- what would I know? And you are right, buzzy can still divorce. What remains to be seen is if he can R if he so chooses to do so. After 14 months of being unapologetic, going to his running club where the woman he fucked is, and never taking any accountability or remorse for it? That’s a recipe for disaster right there. He is going to have some introspective reflection to do and he is going to have to listen to how she feels and try and understand it. In all reality I fear more that his ws hasn’t been accountable in the ways that matter for her to be a long term safe partner.

Well, of course there will be some remorse but not enough to make them rethink their entire decision, especially if it leads to R.

And yes, I agree regarding Buzzy and his bad decision after the RA. But at least he now on board R.

I am sorry you are a bs, I truly mean that. I am sure you have been in a lot of pain. But, You have not retaliated...why? Honestly, I think it takes a bs who cheats sometimes longer to see the ways the affair effects them because there is so much to process. I just think the better option is not to cheat. And really, why is that a wrong way to feel? It came from making some very bad decisions and living with them.

Again, I disagree. If having an RA, especially for a male, helps wot the mind movies ad feel less emasculated, what is wrong? You can still work on the issues relating to the original affair as well as the problems pre-affair...

Again, I do not condemn someone for doing it, I just really feel that for their own sake they might want to think twice. They do bring on similar problems to themselves as a wayward does. Maybe not having quite the same dynamic with the person hey cheated on, but within themselves. You are not a ws, you will never understand. I hope that you won’t ever.

Well, for some people, it is that or divorce. And as you know, it is not always easy to divorce due to fiances, kids, etc etc. It is that or living in limbo hell that many BSes do here. And even if a BS becomes a WS through RA, he or she won't feel the shame a WS who has affair out of selfishness.

HikingOut,

Any BS who is in R, who might be interested in a RA, lives with the fact that they cannot trust their WS. That their WS, who they once trusted, then cheated on them, now is pleading for a chance at R, that WS will once again do their own version of the 180 and cheat again or leave the BS.

On a Just Found Out thread there was a BH who reported that one of the things his WW felt was a feeling of power. While cheating.

So the BS is trying to reclaim their power. If the WS wants to divorce over an RA, well at least the BS had some control over their situation. Rather than waiting for the other shoe to drop.

I am divorced. My situation was a cake walk compared to Incarnate. But there are no good situations here, just less bad ones. There are things I would like to enjoy in a LTR, things other people have, that I will likely never do again because of my lack of trust. Because in my world a wife, GF can walk away tomorrow for any reason or no reason at all. I was nice, I was kind in my marriage and it didn't amount to shit. I do not want to cheat. If I get cheated on again, a third and a fourth time with different women, well I'm going to get more and more caddish just to survive in this world.

I haven't read all the responsed to this thread, but would still like to offer my 2 cents. It seems to me that there is an awful lot of tit for tat thinking behind some of the opinions on this topic. It really makes me think. I think, to a certain degree, we can all agree that having an affair has emotional immaturity at its core. An inability to reason through actions and consequences, using others to 'feel better', doing what feels good in the moment as a temporary fix to what you're lacking, as opposed to really digging deep to expose what makes you tick and doing the work to fix the flaws in your thinking and become a healthier individual in the long run.

This kind of work you do for yourself because you want to live a better quality life. Sometimes people get so stuck in their thought and behaviour patterns, that they need something to jolt them into action. That is not just an impetus for the WS to fix their shit. ALL of us have issues to one degree or another and I think perhaps most of us need a little extra help to acknowledge those issues and work through them, and come out the other side a little wiser and a little more mature. Life is about learning, to me. It's about growth. It's about looking objectively at the things that happen and trying to grow from it, regardless of how painful. It's about coming out the other side better and different than before.

Now, there's nothing quite like an affair to reduce what you thought your life was to ashes. And while you sit in the wreckage, there really are only two choices. Either you can stay where you are, or you can use it as an opportunity for growth. This applies to both the BS and the WS. Whether they stay together or go their separate ways, both will have to work harder than ever before in their lives to repair the damage. From what I've seen, those who choose action from both sides, are also those most likely to make it.

Just like you get WS who never identify the flaws in their thinking, who choose to remain stuck whether consciously or not, you get BS that never see the need for change or growth either. It's not mutually exclusive. I see WS that I think should run for the hills and never look back, because their BS will never be a healthy partner for them and vice versa. I think it is so easy to see the WS as the bad guy or unhealthy partner or the BS as the good guy or healthy partner, when that is not always true. Quite the opposite actually.

Perhaps those who think their partner's cheating gives them a free pass or that they should inflict as much pain as possible to get even, should take a bit of time out to examine their own motives and thought patterns. Some BS exhibit an awful lot of wayward thinking, more than they realise.

[This message edited by IntoTheFray at 12:39 AM, November 8th (Friday)]

If there are no consequences for your partner having an A then it is likely to happen again and in for some the best response is an RA.

I felt diminished by my WW affair and having great sex with a very willing and attractive women boosted my ego no end.

We can all explore the moral and high ground issues but at the time all i wanted was payback.

I wonder how many BS would have turned down the RA i had.

If there are no consequences for your partner having an A then it is likely to happen again and in for some the best response is an RA.

I felt diminished by my WW affair and having great sex with a very willing and attractive women boosted my ego no end.

We can all explore the moral and high ground issues but at the time all i wanted was payback.

I wonder how many BS would have turned down the RA i had.

I will say this for you Buzzy....it’s been a while since this board got this fired up. You have definitely kicked a bee hive here.

Lots of opinions.

You know we hear all the time here that the marriage is killed by the affair. “The old marriage is dead.” D-Day marks the event. It was destroyed by the WS. And reconciliation is the building of a new marriage.

But what about the in between?

The space/time after the death, but before the rebuilding?

The limbo state of WTF. I think that is where you were when you made your decision.

Would you agree?

Hi, Famous, you are mostly correct although in my case the uncertain period was between DD and my RA, the RA restored my ego/self belief, thing is my RA only lasted for the time in Spain, as Claire said on the plane bac " you have decisions to make and I will leave you to make them.

When I arrived home reality came crashing in.

Ramius ffs, bloody auto correct.

Ramius ffs, bloody auto correct.