SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Ramius ffs, bloody auto correct.

Perhaps those who think their partner's cheating gives them a free pass or that they should inflict as much pain as possible to get even, should take a bit of time out to examine their own motives and thought patterns. Some BS exhibit an awful lot of wayward thinking, more than they realise.

yep, and they justify it, just like waywards. and they don't see it. if you have to have sex with someone to prove your worth then wow.

if you have to have sex with someone to prove your worth then wow.

When I'm a disembodied spirit, or a giant brain sitting in a jar, I'll stop thinking about sex. Meanwhile, I am flesh and blood with intact reproductive parts, as are the women I know.

If infidelity really kills the old marriage, maybe there should be a limbo period before the new marriage begins. Which would take care of this problem. Or people should stop saying that infidelity kills the old marriage, because they do not mean it.

Striver- sure, people enjoy sex. But are you really saying you derive your worth from it? Surely you can look at yourself and feel good about who you are and your accomplishments separately from sex?

I went out and tried to prove my worth with someone else and it diminished it. Again, my argument is not against what would make a bs feel better. My argument is that it might make you feel good at the moment but it’s actually gonna make you feel worse in the end. Some of our self worth as humans comes from how we treat others, our integrity. I get for some there is no moral obligation or it doesn’t come into play after a ws completely takes every security that you have and traumatizes you in the worst way possible. But when the bs chats and moves into deciding to R the cognitive dissonance is greater, and the justification gets bigger.

And while the motivations for cheating may not be equal or congruent, it would be difficult for a ws to see how wrong and indignant you are on the matter of cheating when you did it yourself. And going into R that is how it would look. I simply think there is a much greater of a chance to R if the ws feels there is a deep well of contrition to be paid, that they approach it with humility, regret, shame, remorse. But deep down if the bs Cheats it sends the message that ithe other person finds cheating acceptable to them but not acceptable when it’s done to them. It creates a space that will be more difficult to overcome in R. I get that’s not fair, and that the ws is likely not as traumatized, but there is still an air of hypocrisy to it. I think the best result is that the ws feels like slime for what they did, and the bs cheating back gives them an out. Remember in those early days most ws are no where near remorse. I think a ws can reach remorse regardless, but they will see the hypocrisy in it if some of that remorse is not there for the bs or their own transgressions. Trust is lost both ways, maybe not in the same level but effort have to be made now for both to trust.

When a non-cheating BS doesn’t trust their ws, that ws lives out a natural consequence of knowing the marriage can really end at any time - 5 days from now, 5 years from now. The uncertainty they live under is a lack of security that they can blame no one but themselves. That is how it should be. If you cheat back, that sentiment is hollow. It’s harder for the ws to believe you really think cheating is wrong and instead there will never be quite the purity of the consequence.

In other words, if it’s about revenge, it’s a better revenge for the ws to know you did nothing to deserve what they dished out an that you are a far better person than them. It creates a lot of inspiration and contrition.

Again, R is not owed at all. What I am talking about is preserving the bs’s options with the most chance for success. A remorseful spouse can and will do so much more towards helping their bs heal emotionally and sexually than some random. And if the bs doesn’t want R, do whatever you want.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:29 AM, November 8th (Friday)]

Great post hikingout.

hikingout is spot on. Excellent post. And I have to agree with sewardak. If you are so broken and insecure in yourself that you have to have sex with someone else to get a good “feeling” about yourself or to prove your own self worth it is terribly sad. And it is the epitome of wayward thinking.

I went out and tried to prove my worth with someone else and it diminished it.

Another one for the quote thread.

I think the best result is that the ws feels like slime for what they did, and the bs cheating back gives them an out.

^^^This. BF and I processed my A for six months, culminating in the RA that he felt he needed to rebuild his self esteem. After his night with OW, he announced that he was greatly healed. I said I didn't want to know about it, which was highly out of character for me. In retrospect, I wanted to believe it was an easy fix as much as he did, and I felt it absolved me of the self-examination and extended penance I'd otherwise need to do.

How did that work out for us? Sixteen days after the RA, we finalized the rugsweep by getting engaged. And thirty years later, here we are.

you will never understand what a BS feels so by that logic alone, most of what you have said on this topic is unnecessary.

I repeat, you will never understand what a BS goes through.

But I do. I am acutely awarded of the pain, anguish and rage a BS goes through. Yet I still believe an RA is wrong.

And you think a RA will bring more problems due to your wayward thinking of not wanting to suffer what you made you BH suffer.

I believe the same thing and I’m not a WS. Ruh-Roh Shaggy!

Oh. And...Ummm....no. Quite the opposite actually. It’s actually Wayward thinking to believe an RA will fix anything.

I ask again, what consequences will it bring? And for whom? BS? If it helps a BS gain his confidence again, help him/her move past the pain, what consequences will they suffer?

Seems like you do, given how you are pushing against an RA, even though it might help a BS.

This is the really interesting (and weird) thing for me. This idea that because someone thinks doing something might help them, then that means it’s not wrong. It can be both. It can help you (not my personal view, btw) and still be the wrong thing to do.

I will also add that all of this back and forth about defending or justifying an RA bothers me as a BS. Because if my wife had once tried to justify her A in any way, we’d be done. That’s not the same thing as figuring out her Why’s and her digging to understand what her mindset was, etc. But if she tried to justify it, I’d be all over that. All of this debating simply says that this reason makes it okay, but not that reason. I “need it” to feel better about myself, or to even the score, or punish, or regain power, control, masculinity, whatever. It’s all bullshit. It’s just another Wayward reason justifying shitty behavior.

I understand what could drive a BS to have an RA in the wake of DDay. I don’t understand why a BS would then say it’s perfectly fine and there’s nothing wrong with it. None of us are perfect. Man up and I say I did it, here’s why, but it was wrong. The fact that some folks cannot or will not illustrates to me why MH’s are classified as such and post in the Wayward forum. It’s because that’s where they belong.

Wow - that turned into a rant. Ah well.

[This message edited by Walloped at 9:28 AM, November 8th (Friday)]

I'm starting to agree with those who suggest that a temporary separation should occur after every DDay even if R is wanted. Take that time to do whatever you want. The RA sex didn't do anything but damage to me, but I'll grant that the circumstances were such that I couldn't have enjoyed a winning lottery ticket that day. The ONS I had after I left my XWH did wonders for me. Yes, sometimes sex with another person can help heal. My XWH purchased prostitutes in their 20s. After I left him, I had a ONS with an attractive man in his 20s. Yes, that did more for me than a year of therapy. It's not weakness or waywardness to be validated and somewhat healed from a sexual wound by having good sex.

RAs occur during a profoundly fucked up time in a person's life. I expect that more rational thought goes into a drunken hookup at a bar (when single) than an RA. After DDay, there's not much we wouldn't do if we thought it would ease the pain. Swim with crocodiles? Fabulous, I'll jump right in. RAs are about a lot more than just casual sex. They're too tied up in the trauma of infidelity. You go get sexual validation from someone else, then you come home to the person you love and look the trauma in the face once again.

And the idea that it is a tool for R...I don't think so. All the supposed benefits are still tied to pain. My "benefits" were that when mind movies hit me, I could pull up my own mind movies in retaliation. Healthy? Nah. That didn't ease the pain. That brought out some seriously negative emotions. That fostered distance and resentment and anger towards my XWH, and lord knows there was already plenty of that. Instead of weeping over the hurt, I could use hateful thoughts instead and war with him in my mind. It made me capable of having sex with him and yet, that was also a mistake. I should have left him and never touched him again.

Another benefit...maybe it could give me a clue into how it was for him. No, not hardly. He didn't have a mental breakdown over me cheating on him and run out to hit back. It didn't help me understand his actions at all.

Benefit #3, I'd feel more "even". For reasons already articulated well, it doesn't do that. I wound up feeling extra angry. It took almost zero effort for me to find someone to sleep with. I had been faithful since the day I met him despite the ease of not being faithful and the temptations I had brushed off for years. He had to work to cheat and he put in a lot of effort to do so.

And hey, if you're having an RA in the hopes of it helping R, know that this could be a massive mistake. The worst, absolute worst thing my RA resulted in was an attempt at R. I woke up the day after DDay and told him I was leaving because there was no way on earth that I could get past this and it was a dealbreaker. He did the weeping that many of us are familiar with. I was so traumatized by the events of the day before that I looked at him weeping and thought "you just fucked another man yesterday. How are you any better than this guy?". And instead of holding strong and packing my bags, I crawled onto the bed and held him and cried with him. That was in June of 2017. Though we were IHS around 8/9 months later, I didn't leave and begin my new life until August of 2018. 14 months of my life were given away because I had an RA and complicated this mess in my own head.

Perhaps those who think their partner's cheating gives them a free pass or that they should inflict as much pain as possible to get even, should take a bit of time out to examine their own motives and thought patterns. Some BS exhibit an awful lot of wayward thinking, more than they realise.

yep, and they justify it, just like waywards. and they don't see it. if you have to have sex with someone to prove your worth then wow.

Yup, this.

All of this debating simply says that this reason makes it okay, but not that reason. I “need it” to feel better about myself, or to even the score, or punish, or regain power, control, masculinity, whatever. It’s all bullshit. It’s just another Wayward reason justifying shitty behavior.

I understand what could drive a BS to have an RA in the wake of DDay. I don’t understand why a BS would then say it’s perdectly fine and there’s nothing wrong with it.

^^^^^^BINGO!

I feel exactly the same way.

I can absolutely empathize with and understand the reasoning and thoughts that go into RAs.

But I still think they are wrong, and the justifications I am seeing some people give and go round and round about arguing to give are serious wayward thinking.

I don't even think that they're "wrong" exactly. I just don't think they are the answer to anything.

Buzzy, forgive me if you've already touched on this, but I'm curious about your WWs A. Who was it with? How long did it go on? How did you learn about it? What has she done since Dday?

All of this debating simply says that this reason makes it okay, but not that reason.

That sums up my opinion of it. Either cheating is wrong for everyone or it’s wrong for no one. If some justifications are acceptable, then they all are.

NOT condoning. But just something to chew on. What if the BS doesn't believe the WS will be true - that they've pulled this a couple times before, either just an EA or an EA and a PA... whatever. Serial cheater or at least suspected of being one OR if all past values and actions point to a Cluster B disordered person with no real morals, values repeatedly through their life...

And...

The BS isn't in a position to remove themselves at that time. They're human. They have next to NO trust the BS won't do it again. The BS has been rejected, neglected, put down, and feels sexually fifth rate.

They've told their spouse they don't believe they won't cheat. They've told their spouse that they didn't get the open marriage memo before, but they've got it now (WS said that everything felt okay as long as dick didn't get wet and no petting or kissing, sexting, etc. - that dates were 'dancing on the line' but NOT cheating? That as long as he came back to me and didn't do those things, he wasn't impacting the marriage?

Now, the BS comes across someone who knows the score, and sex happens a couple times. BS at least feels desirable.

Is it right? No. But would BS stray if WS hadn't? No. Is it justification? Call it what you want. Did the BS do it to hurt the WS? Probably a bad idea unless the BS was willing to divorce and the WS is one of those twisted people who just doesn't get it until it happens to them.

Omit the A to the WS? I could weigh in a thousand different scenarios, and in some cases call it worse or not as bad as the original.

But I totally admit - maybe it's because of the pain or my situation - but in SOME small cases, I don't judge the BS for doing what they need to restore themselves. SOME.

However, the situation isn't optimal. But optimal would be that the first A hadn't taken place to begin with.

I don't know folks. I'm just trying to look at it from both angles and I don't see it as black and white in 100% of all cases. The whole thing is a cluster F.

Hugs to everyone and I don't care which side of the fence of this topic you are on. I hear you both. Feel you both. I'm glad that this kind of topic hasn't turned out to be a s show and stooped to name calling. See? We CAN discuss the hard topics.

I think everyone has a different take on this. It really comes down to your own personal views on the topic. Let's be frank here. Not everyone that has an A or an RA is going to feel the same level of assault to their character and integrity.

I think all BS ponder a RA or at least a way to get "even," with their spouse. It is human nature. I think most BS and WS get that. It seems to be very triggering to a WS because it is their worst fear, yet on some level they feel they deserve it. They deserve a D. An RA doesn't have the same impact on someone who is so broken or adept at the mental gymnastics it takes to decide on and then carry out an A then come home and pretend everything is normal.

You can't burn someone in this way when they are immune due to their deficit of character. You can't show somebody what it "feels like," when they don't have the same level of empathy, compassion and humility. There is no deep personal reflection that makes them question their value. The tell themselves what they want to hear and discard everything else to the contrary. They just shrug and say, "ok." Back to status quo. Nobody changes. Any brokenness just gets ignored until the next crisis. Rinse and repeat.

Going a little off topic. . .

My W has always told me that the more amicable, generous and loving I was to her the worse it made her feel. It was a punishment that took the joy out of anything she experienced in our M. Even when I wasn't around it followed her robbing her of enjoying something simple like spending time with our daughter.

When I was very direct and told her exactly what I thought of her she understood she deserved it. She really couldn't argue with that either. She earned it. It did not make it hurt any less to hear than from someone she did care about (I did not believe that about her at the time BTW).

Further when I showed her the real raw emotions underneath what her A did to me . . . well let's just say it is hard to see yourself as anything, but the scum of the earth. "I hurt this person so bad . . .who am I ?" "I am not a good person and I don't deserve them."

When I had bad days it was her fault. On good days she couldn't enjoy them. On my fragile days she would realize just how bad she hurt me. No escape from that. Just had to sit there and take it.

All her fault. I had someone to point my finger at. Release whatever was going on with me, feel better and move on. She couldn't do that. Any hint of her issues were summarily discarded. In the game of pain and who is responsible for that pain. It is the WS that always loses despite whatever circumstances exists.

Asking me to change ? Pffft. One word shut that down. Affair. Game over. No repeats. Just quiet resignation. She was the problem. Not me. If an WS really believes it wasn't about them (not just say that they do) then the BS shouldn't have to change when it comes to fidelity. They've got it right already. No need to make changes. An RA changes that.

You know what effort it took for me to exact those, "punishments?" Literally nothing. I was just being me and going with what I felt at the time. I was genuine. She had to try and figure out what version of me it was each and everyday. She had to be present in a lot of ways I did not. She had to act in a way that was contrary to her natural state. All of the time.

In time I found grace and expected her to accept it or get a D. If she wanted R she had no other choice. I knew she did BTW. How ? She would D me before having an A or would have left on Dday. She did not want to lose her M. The choice if she got the chance was 100% dependent on me. Further the "reason" if we did D would be very clear to everyone.

I healed and I am the hero in that story. At best she can be a villain than redeemed herself.

Which one would you rather be ?

Yes, it does feel amazing to be desired. But it's only amazing to be desired for oneself, for who one is.

One of the reasons I rejected an RA is that the feeling of being desired is so likely to be a lie I tell myself. Consider:

The ap either is willing to fuck a married man, or she is incapable of separating truth from fiction, if I've lied to her. I think it's worse if she knew I was M.

If my ap were an X, I've either dumped or been dumped by her for some reason. Any sense of being desired because of who I am under those conditions has to be a fantasy.

Would the woman really want me, or would she want to use me?

If I met my ap in a bar, she'd probably be drinking and partially impaired. Taking that as 'being desired for who I am' is fantastic ... as in 'the stuff of fantasy.'

If the ap is someone I barely know, how the hell can she know and desire me for who I am?

Now, if the ap is a friend who knows me well, the RA would be the type of A Shirley Glass described ... not an RA, an A.

Anyone who thinks the RA is an expression of someone's desire for himself is lying to himself. I accept that some people do take comfort from that lie, and I accept that can be the first step on the road to recovery.

But recovery depends on truth and staying in touch with reality, and an RA is a detour into fantasy and unreality. An RA is a lousy first step.

I repeat, you will never understand what a BS goes through.

And you can't imagine what a WS actually goes through without cheating. You are making assumptions about the outcome of an RA, and those assumptions don't match the testimony of at least some of the people who have conducted them.

Well, for some people, it is that or divorce.

That statement has to come from a belief that R is somehow better than D.

I'm pretty much as pro-R as you'll find on SI, and I believe BSes can hold their heads high whether they D or R, as long as they make mindful choices.

We are not here to get people to R or D. We are here to help people find their way to recovery.

It really makes me think. I think, to a certain degree, we can all agree that having an affair has emotional immaturity at its core.

Perhaps those who think their partner's cheating gives them a free pass or that they should inflict as much pain as possible to get even, should take a bit of time out to examine their own motives and thought patterns. Some BS exhibit an awful lot of wayward thinking, more than they realise.

Amen.

The false sense of being desired with which I started this post is an aspect of that immaturity.

Ramius ffs, bloody auto correct.

If anything ever written on SI deserves repeating, this ^ does.

Copied from your other thread:

Buzzy, I think you have and are handling the situation as well as can be expected. I may get pummeled here, but I don’t believe a cheating spouse can ever truly understand the pain and devastation that THEY caused.

I did not go the route of having a revenge affair, I went toward immediate filing for divorce and trying to go as little contact with cheating wife as possible. But I do see the rationale behind the revenge affair and telling her about it before it takes place, especially when her affair was relatively short. Now she too knows the pain, the devastation, the fearing of the future, etc.

I’m not sure which is worse, finding out after the fact that your wife slept with another man three times, but knowing there was a period of time when iit built up from a collegial relationship to flirting to kissing, to sex, or knowing your husband is driving off to the airport to be with another woman, especially a friend that is in shape, and not knowing if husband will return, and also knowing he is doing it because of her own actions.

I wish nothing but the best for you and the wife. If the marriage can be saved, that is great. but I think you both are in for a great deal of work. If cheating is a dealbreaker, then I hope for a quick and amicable divorce and the creation of a solid co-parenting relationship.

But, to those who say that a revenge affair only adds more problems to the situation and makes the marriage that more difficult to salvage, I say that the original marriage is dead and never coming back. The new marriage/relationship is going to have to be rebuilt from scratch anyway.

I felt diminished by my WW affair and having great sex with a very willing and attractive women boosted my ego no end.

I expect your wife's AP could say the same... "I felt (fill-in-the-blank} and having great sex with a very willing and attractive woman boosted my ego to no end".

You've got two sets of standards, one for you and one for other people. The sooner you start seeing your AP in the SAME light as you see your wife's AP, the better you will understand.

Right now, you've got fond memories of the sexual experience, but those memories will change once you see your AP for the sick, twisted individual that she is. You're not going to see anything "attractive" there, because fucking another woman's husband is NOT an attractive trait. She's just as sick and pathetic as your WW's AP, and maybe you don't want to look at it because the sentence you used above fits for ALL of you. All four of you could use that sentence with very little personalizing. The key words are "boosted my ego".

Affairs are mirrors. During the fantasy, they reflect what you want to see... and in the aftermath, they reflect what you need to fix.

I healed and I am the hero in that story. At best she can be a villain than redeemed herself.

Which one would you rather be ?

Honestly? I get this. This is where i am right now.

But somewhere, deep down inside of me (okay maybe not that deep) is the rage of my Viking ancestors. I want to burn the monastery to the ground. I want to sow the fields with salt. I want to be the one that she and her OM and OW see in the distance, shrouded in the smoke of my destruction, and say "Oh fuck, oh fuck, Incarnate is coming!"

I wanna be Conan. I want to see my enemies driven before me and hear the wails and lamentations of their women. I want to see the fear and regret in their eyes that they ever dared to cross and betray me.

... and I type this while sitting in front of my computer in my LaZBoy desk chair, feeling whiny that my back hurts because I slept on it wrong.

N&D -

I relate to every freaking thing you said. Whenever I was kind to my WW, it destroyed her. She couldn’t grasp how I could be gracious to her in light of her actions, which made her feel even more horrible. I don’t need to repeat everything you said but I experienced the exact same dynamic.