SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

The new marriage/relationship is going to have to be rebuilt from scratch anyway.

so, then the BS has to rebuild with someone who betrayed them, and the WS has to rebuild with someone who acts out based on what others do and ties their self worth to sex. hmmm. why make it more difficult?

Would the woman really want me, or would she want to use me?

If I met my ap in a bar, she'd probably be drinking and partially impaired. Taking that as 'being desired for who I am' is fantastic ... as in 'the stuff of fantasy.'

If the ap is someone I barely know, how the hell can she know and desire me for who I am?

When the WS decides to cheat, they are deciding to sleep with a scummy, bad person over their loyal spouse.

When the BS decides to revenge cheat, they are choosing to sleep with a scummy, bad person over a scummy, bad person that they happen to be married to.

I don't see how a marriage certificate automatically makes WS a good person. How are they better than someone you might pick up in a bar?

In fact, the BS having sex with WS in mid A is worse than a RA. Because the BS is choosing to have the RA, they can take precautions against STDs. A BS cannot take precautions against STDs passed on by the WS, since they do not know the WS is cheating. Therefore sex with the WS can be worse than sex with a random stranger.

When the WS decides to cheat, they are deciding to sleep with a scummy, bad person over their loyal spouse.

No arguments here. If the AP know the WS is married, yeah, fuck 'em. If not, well... a little bit of a grey area.

When the BS decides to revenge cheat, they are choosing to sleep with a scummy, bad person over a scummy, bad person that they happen to be married to.

I do take issue with this a little bit. A ONS hookup of an RA doesn't necessarily mean the RAP is a bad person. Even if they're familiar with the situation, I still have trouble seeing them automatically in a bad light.

I don't see how a marriage certificate automatically makes WS a good person. How are they better than someone you might pick up in a bar?

I don't think someone picked up in a bar is necessarily a trashy or shitty person. People are gonna have sex. Single people are free to have sex with whichever single people they want, no judgement or morality issues. If that's the pretense the person at a bar is working under, how are they to be shone in a negative light?

In fact, the BS having sex with WS in mid A is worse than a RA. Because the BS is choosing to have the RA, they can take precautions against STDs. A BS cannot take precautions against STDs passed on by the WS, since they do not know the WS is cheating. Therefore sex with the WS can be worse than sex with a random stranger.

No real arguments there. I had at first interpreted this to mean that choosing to have an RA is worse when the BS didn't know the WS was having an affair, and that made no sense to me. I read it again, slower, and it made more sense.

[This message edited by Incarnate at 4:38 PM, November 8th (Friday)]

HikingOut- i think the feeling is referred more to being desired then self worth.

Walloped - you claim that you were kind to your wife but didn't you say in your post that you used vulgar language to your wife during R ?

Sewardak - then why not leave marriage or demand separation? Once you tell them you are done and you discuss it then you are allowed to sleep with anyone you want? you have to stab them in the back? The difference is the BS is in sorrow and can't make a decision yet if he wants to continue the marriage and can heal by sleeping around and feeling desired

I've told this story before but it kind of fits for this thread. During my army career I knew of a sergeant who discovered his wife had a six month affair while he had been deployed. She begged and pleaded and made all kinds of promises if he would not divorce her. After much thought he told her he would stay but on one condition. She owed him a six month affair with another woman. He may collect on that debt in a year, in 5 years, in 10 years or maybe never. It all depended on her. This was many years ago and as far as I know, and since the last time I saw him, they were still married (appeared happily) and he had not collected on her debt. Sometimes the threat can be more powerful than the action. I do wish you well.

can heal by sleeping around and feeling desired

One cannot heal by doing this. I mean really?

Sometimes the threat can be more powerful than the action

because we all know that marriage is a power play. Or one where one must hold the superior position. Jesus. Grow up.

[This message edited by sewardak at 9:35 PM, November 8th (Friday)]

sewardak: No, marriage is not suppose to be a power play. It's suppose to be an equal partnership. That is until one of the partners oversteps the boundaries and puts the partnership in jeopardy and potential destruction and causing untold hurt. Then it may, and has every right to, turn into a power play in order for the betrayed partner to survive and try to hold the partnership together. If a threat accomplishes that then so be it. How many times has a BS said that "if it happens again then I'm done." It appears that in your opinion this is a power play. In my opinion it is a play to insure compliance to the partnership. I do wish you well.

That is until one of the partners oversteps the boundaries and puts the partnership in jeopardy and potential destruction and causing untold hurt. Then it may, and has every right to, turn into a power play in order for the betrayed partner to survive and try to hold the partnership together.

I am confused about why many of the BS here seem to have the opinion that cheating is the only thing somebody can possibly do in a marriage that oversteps boundaries, causes an incredible amount of hurt and betrayal to their partner, and jeopardizes the relationship.

In any relationship where there is an addiction, the dynamic turns into a power play. However, I have never ever once seen anyone say that if their partner is an addict, that the other partner cheating is justified. Even if the spouse is just trying to survive.

In any relationship where there is a history of abuse, the dynamic turns into a power play. However, I have never once seen anyone say that if their partner has been abusive, that the other partner is justified for cheating. Just the opposite- I have seen abuse victims here actually get raked over the coals even more because pissing off an abuser by cheating seemingly makes no sense and is potentially more dangerous.

The assumption that many seem to have that the marriage was going along great and that it was a fair and equal partnership prior to any infidelity is faulty. Many relationships here were very much not healthy way prior to any cheating, and yet WS have been encouraged to take responsibility for their own actions and own choices. Not told that "well, the relationship was a power play and you were just doing what you needed to do to heal and survive."

Further, the assertion that sleeping around is a healthy way to heal from trauma is ridiculous. When have we EVER accepted "healing from trauma" as an excuse from a WS?

It's really very simple: whenever you use outside validation to counter or create inside emotions--positive or negative--you are not emotionally autonomous. IC 101: I determine how I feel and do not let the actions of others control my emotional health.

A tough call after a traumatic event, but it does not change the healthy person's goal--emotional autonomy. I heal myself.

Buzzy wrote on page 2:

The reason I posted is because although we are in R i still cannot fully forgive.

He solved nothing.

My formerly broken, dependent self is here to say that the person I became during my RA has been far harder to reconcile and recover from than the damage my H did with his cheating and brokenness. I'd give anything to be able to go back to when I was on the other side of immoral and selfish, but there is no taking it back. There is only accepting that when my husband went low, I went low with him. I let myself down when I most needed me.

HeartBreaker11, a relationship can be destroyed for many other reasons than just cheating. A relationship is over when on spouse tells the other, "I'm done". It can be cheating, alcohol, gambling, drugs, and a dozen other reasons. A relationship is on the verge of death when something becomes more important to them than their relationship with their partner. There are husbands that had rather play their video games than spend time with their wife. There are wives who had rather spend their time on their phones or Facebook than spend it with their husband. When this happens then the toll of the relationship death bell has started. After 53 years of marriage I can tell you that a marriage/relationship needs feeding everyday in order to keep it healthy. I do wish you well.

mondas,

Walloped - you claim that you were kind to your wife but didn't you say in your post that you used vulgar language to your wife during R ?

Really? I mean, really?

1) I wasn’t talking to you.

2) I said I was gracious and I was succinctly echoing what numb&dumb was saying, that my acts of graciousness to my wife had a more powerful impact on her than any unkind thing I did.

3) It’s not possible to be kind and gracious on numerous occasions and then also be angry and upset and use vulgar language and be unkind on other occasions? I would think a BS would be acutely aware of that emotional pendulum. The fact that you aren’t is telling. Or, you’re just being willfully obtuse.

4) I notice you didn’t actually address any substantive point. You just made an ad hominem attack.

5) When did I say I used vulgar language? Oh - in my JFO posts 4 years ago? You’re seriously challenging me by digging up my posts from 4 years ago? Really? What the hell is wrong with you?

Buzzy,

I actually agree with you. Depending on your personality, an RA can be powerfully therapeutic. Rebalancing is probably the best term I’ve heard to describe it’s purpose. I also think making sure that the WS knows about the RA is important, so they understand the pain the BS went through.

The RA isn’t cheating in my mind because when the WS had a PA they broke the marriage contract.

I see a lot of talk of 'rebalancing', but what balance or fairness can ever be gained from a RA? My WH had sex with two women before me and one while he was with me, that makes it four women out in the world who knows what it feels like to have him inside them, one of them who absolutely should never have known anything of the kind. My WH is my one and only. He was the first and only man I ever held hands with, kissed, had sex with. I don't know what it's like to run my hands through another man's hair. I don't know what it is to kiss anyone else. I don't know how another man's body would feel against mine. I don't know what it would feel like to open my body to his. I only know my WH.

So how should I address that perceived imbalance? Should I go out and fuck three other men to even it out? Would that balance the scales? Would it make me feel better?

In my late 20s/early 30s I went through a severe FOMO period. I had married young and married my first lover. I felt as if I missed out on being young and sowing my wild oats, so to speak. I wanted to experience the unknown. I never acted on it though. Granted, I was extremely checked out of my marriage, but I simply didn't have it in me to shed my moral values like that. I grew up. I outgrew those desires and behaviours and found value in my marriage.

I often look at the women that I 'grew up' with. Mothers and wives. I've watched their children grow up. I've watched so many of them revert back to their teenage behaviours once their children reached a certain age. 'My children can take care of themselves now, so I'm going to enjoy my life again.' They get piercings and tattoos, they drink to excess and experiment with drugs. They go back to the club scene we left behind 20 years ago. And I can't understand why anymore. Back then when I felt I had missed out, yes. More than a decade later... not so much. I don't understand why they would try to relive their youth rather than enter the next phase of their lives with grace and excitement at what comes next. I often feel that these women stopped maturing emotionally once they had children. They stopped learning and growing. They stopped moving forward. Instead they're stuck in their early 20s mindset of stubbornly insisting, now it's time for me to enjoy my life again.

That kind of thinking is also so often at the heart of an affair. 'I deserve to be happy. It's my time now.' It smacks of juvenile entitlement, as does the concept of rebalancing the scales after an affair. You did it, so why can't I? You got to experience a new sex partner, so why can't I? Tit for that. I deserve this, because you did it first. I don't believe that those who have revenge affairs do it solely as a response to their partner's affair. Giving yourself permission to break you marriage vows, regardless of what your partner has or hasn't done, is such a leap from a faithful to unfaithful mindset, that it surely can't be justified as solely a kneejerk reaction to what another human being did. That kind of tit for tat thinking was there all along. The proclivity was there all along, regardless of whether it was a conscious mindset or not.

I am not a religious person by any means, but a certain Bible passage comes to mind immediately. Ironically it comes from the same chapter that speaks of love and what love should look like. 1 Corinthians 13:11 says, "When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways." Further back in verses 4 - 6, it says about love, "Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth."

Instead of gleefully rejoicing in'rebalancing' the wrongs done in your relationship, perhaps critically examine what loves looks like to you. Not just the love you receive, but the love you give as well. If it cannot be found in your current relationship, best move on instead of inflicting more damage in a bid to get even. Or 'rebalance", as the two are really one and the same.

Well said, IntoTheFray.

I agree an RA is balancing.

If you do have an RA, just know that you wanted to cheat, and were just waiting on permission.

If you are just doing it to hurt your WS, then you could always “preserve your honor” by lying and saying you did it, if you consider lying honorable.

Or you could use Anoldlion’s friend’s technique, saying you’ve been given permission, to use or not, at any time in the future. That sounds like a winning course of action.

Does the WS's violation of her vows break the contract in a way that frees the BS from his vows?

A few thoughts...

If your wedding was presided over by clergy, you probably made vows to God. On what basis can you justify violating a vow to God?

If your wedding did not involve religion, did it not implicitly include vows to yourself?

IDK about anyone but me on this, but I did my best at my wedding. I brought my best self to the ceremony, and my unspoken commitment to myself and to my bride was to expand the time I was at my best.

I brought my integrity to the ceremony, and I implicitly committed to acting from that integrity more and more as life was to go on.

I brought my Adult to the ceremony, and I committed implicitly to use my Adult when necessary, and especially at times of conflict.

So my reason for not taking the offered hall pass was, above all, that using it would have violated my vows to myself.

To those who think an RA is permissible, what did you bring to your wedding? What were your commitments?

My W has said she didn't really know what the vows meant. I guess she brought her best, but that included, unbeknownst to me, giving herself permission to hide her co-d, and that was her downfall.

I share that as a way of saying that those questions above are real questions. You have no obligation to answer me, but I urge you to ask them of yourselves.

*****

As for balance, what would have been proper balance for me?

My W's ap turned me off, and she was a she. That seems to mean I could choose between fucking a woman I found very unattractive or a man. Whoopee.

[This message edited by sisoon at 10:00 AM, November 10th (Sunday)]

Well said intothefray.

If I had been a WS, already full of my own bull shit reasons as to why I had an affair, my BS having a ‘rebalancing’ (or whatever nonsense term you decide on) affair with matt at the gym or the hot intern at work wouldn’t have made me go, ‘wow they must have been in so much pain, I feel like I truly understand the depths of my actions’. It would have made me think ‘well there you go, I always knew they were just looking for an excuse to bang x, I always knew they were controlling, vengeful, spiteful, I always knew they didnt love me enough etc etc’. It would have succeeded in ensuring an already toxic marriage became more toxic and the sense of entitlement to the original affair solidified in the mind of the original WS whether they’d admit that or not.

I took the moral road. For healing’s sake, my husband didn’t need to feel how I felt, sorry but he didn’t. He saw me behave with grace, integrity, realistic compassion and empathy and that’s when he started to look internally at him instead of externally. The pain buck stopped at me and that’s where it will stay, for the good of my family, for the good of my children. For the good of me. I will never be that person.

Cheating is wrong period.

[This message edited by Dragonfly123 at 10:42 AM, November 10th (Sunday)]

This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^! Word!

A few thoughts...

If your wedding was presided over by clergy, you probably made vows to God. On what basis can you justify violating a vow to God?

If your wedding did not involve religion, did it not implicitly include vows to yourself?

Both parties at a wedding are bound by the vows. It is between the two of them. Even religious people are allowed to divorce in cases of adultery. The adultery broke the compact between the two of them.

Frankly IMO there should be more immediate separations post infidelity. That should be the norm. Many BS betray themselves and their own values by offering R on day one.

I am all for divorce on DDay. If the WS can convince the BS to give them another go, after the BS has considered WS and other options, they can reunite. But separation, divorce on DDay, I am fine with that. The union is already smashed anyway. There are other people in the world worthy of the love of a BS. Plenty of people worthy of love. There is nothing in the Bible or any source of morality that indicates that your current spouse is the only person possible to love.

Divorce doesn't happen immediately because of legacy customs and laws. I'd be fine with speeding the process. But we live in a kludgy world in this regard.

@ Walloped. I remember when you first got here. There was A LOT of vulgar language.

Has it really been 4 years for you already ? Wow.