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The reason we advise a change of job,is because it is impossible for the BS to know if the affair has ended, or gone underground.

How do you know it's over? How will you know she isn't having any contact with him, that isn't 100% work related?

What reason(s) has your attorney given you for not going after the company/POSOM?

I've mentioned your situation to my attorney (who's one of the best attorneys I've come across) as well as a few other attorneys I know and each of them said it's a slam dunk case and you have a multi MILLION $ payout coming your way.

You need a new attorney!!

Or is it YOU that doesn't want to go after this company/POSOM because you don't want to rock the boat with your wife and her current job because she's making "2X what she made a couple of years ago and will not be able to find comparable employment"??

Another thing that stood out to me in your last post is there sure were a lot of "I's" used on things you're doing.

What (if anything) has your wife done? Sounds like you're still in the EXACT same situation and nothing has changed.

-VAR, I would like to do this one. I just don't know if I want to spend hours going through recordings to find out she's talking to her mom about how to cook chicken.

I just want to encourage you on this. It is surprisingly easy and affordable to acquire the devices. It is surprisingly easy to secure them in the right locations, ready to record. And it is surprisingly easy to scan through hours of innocuous conversations. It took me about 15 minutes of listening to find the conversation that led to my D-Day with my WW. For one thing, if it is in the car or master bathroom area, it is "voice activated" meaning it only picks up when she's talking. Most of the time that will be short 2-3 minute mundane conversations you can skip. Saying you don't want to hear about chicken recipes is an excuse for not doing something that will give you more of the truth.

-I will ask her to detail her affair in writing.

I want to encourage you on this also -- this should take her less than a week. Tell you want it and give her a deadline. And make sure she knows it needs to be detailed, a day by day accounting. This serves a dual purpose: It gives you details you can test for veracity (and fills in a big vacuum in your life) and it makes her put in writing the sordid nature of what she was doing. She has to face it in black and white on a blank page. It has the psychological impact of taking away the romance and stripping the fantasy from the affair.

As to the polygraph to test whether she's being truthful - this is incredibly easy to set up. I wish I'd done it a long time ago. It took one 20 minute phone call, an exchange of emails with the polygraph examiner to get the questions phrased right, nailing down a calendar date and then a two-hour time block to conduct the polygraph and immediately get the results. It wasn't hard to find the examiner or set up the appointment. Again if she won't do this or balks, she's lying to you. It's a great way to slice through and get at the truth.

As far as the bedroom, she mentioned waiting because neither of us are in the right emotional state right now. Honestly, I agree. I want sex, but know it might complicate things right now. She needs the emotional connection to have meaningful sex.

I would strongly recommend you get an STD test for yourself and that she agrees to take one and documents the results for you in writing before any sexual activity occurs. I keep repeating myself on this because it is so important. This isn't hard to set up and it takes a short time to do the test. If she won't do it, she's simply being lazy and she's confirming that they had unprotected sex. If you won't do it, you're playing Russian roulette with your health.

I made her write an email and have me copied on the whole string of emails.

Masters, correct me if I'm wrong but this was after she broke NC once and you found out and confronted her at 145 in the morning, correct? And wasn't it pretty obvious that she and the AP were coordinating their responses for you?

-About suing the company...Not going to happen right now. The attorney I spoke with (twice now) recommended against it for the time being.

The suggestion was not necessarily to sue the company. The suggestion was to ensure that a predatory VP of HR would no longer be in that position of authority with a power differential over other vulnerable employees. However that needs to happen is the right way to proceed. This man has breached a serious violation of company policy that is a firing offense and puts the company at great risk.

-I have open access to her devices now.

Yes, but correct me if I'm wrong, you haven't run any retrieval software for deleted texts -- so her transparency now is practically worthless, especially if you don't have a VAR in her car to see if she has a burner phone.

-She's not leaving her job right now. She moved offices to be farther away from him and the company is going through a potential sale, so that all needs to shake out.

I'm assuming you're saying she moved to a different hallway or something -- but this does absolutely nothing to address travel situations and the like. I'm sure you can see in your own mind that as long as they can walk down a floor or a hallway, they can easily have facetime with each other and rekindle their affair. So they're still in the same building, unless you're saying she moved to an actual different office building in a different part of the city.

And even then, they work at the same company and it would be incredibly easy to conceal a continuing affair from you. So you, Masters, are willfully countenancing a high probability that the affair has gone underground or will be rekindled again at some point in the near future. You're purposefully allowing a situation to continue that will constantly trigger you and will in all likelihood lead to a repeat of her behavior. If you're comfortable with that, I wish you luck. But it's a near universal recommendation in almost every single instance of a workplace affair (which is one the most common forms of adultery) that the betrayer must find a new job. Failing that, you're rugsweeping and in denial big-time.

I know this isn't the popular opinion on this site, but I really miss her.

If you think that this sentiment would be unpopular, I have to say gently that it feels like you haven't paid attention. We're all BS's here who love our spouses. SI leans toward reconciliation if possible, but we're all blunt about our own experiences and how each situation isn't all that unique and follows pretty predictable patterns. We also lean against reconciliation if a WS is blameshifting and rugsweeping. We all know the feeling of missing our spouses -- in fact, I can tell in hindsight that's one of the most heartbreaking parts of infidelity. We watched the spouse we thought we knew disappear in front of our eyes as if the body snatchers took them away and replaced them with a clone. Here's the thing that needs to be said over and over: Your wife is not the person you thought she was. She dynamited the idealized pedestal you had her on. And now you see the real woman you're married to. You miss what you thought you had. But the real woman is right in front of you. And unfortunately she's exactly the kind of woman who was prepared to cast you overboard for an older successful executive. That must be dealt with openly if you're to have any chance to reconcile. That doesn't seem like it's really sunk in for you yet. I hope it will.

It bears a lot of similarities to certain situations on this website, but also is 180 degrees different to others.

You keep saying this. I have to say as bluntly as I can, yet also as kindly as I can, that I haven't seen any tangible evidence of your special uniqueness. You're an American in his late 30s dealing with a typical (nearly stereotypical) cake-eating workplace affair, in which your wife welcomed and also reciprocally pursued an older executive. They conducted a torrid affair on out of town work trips. It's called branch-swinging. They had sex, though you seem to want to remain in denial about that. She is experiencing limerence for him. And you are indeed doing the pick me dance and avoiding some easy steps that could get you clear of the situation. It's all pretty typical. I've yet to see much unique about it at all.

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:40 PM, January 9th (Thursday)]

Masters, someone in another thread just wrote the following for another BH to help give him clarity. It applies directly to you as well. In the other case, the BH is giving his WW a clear ultimatum about her leaving the job. She won't do it. Why? Because she's in limerence for her AP.

Here's the set of clarifying questions for you - Just adapted it to your not terribly unique circumstance. Otherwise it's a direct quote from the other thread (so you can see exactly how non-unique you are):

1) Is your wife married to you? Yes, for now.

2) Did your wife cheat on you? Yes. It was definitely a physical affair with deep kissing, and all but likely was a full on sexual affair as well.

3) Is it any surprise that you are less comfortable with your wife hanging out with her married boyfriend at work?

4) If your wife left her job, would she take a pay hit? Maybe, maybe not. But she would save her marriage. By staying in the job, you're both headed for divorce, because after about a year of this you, Masters, will find it completely unacceptable. The anger will set in and you'll see how ridiculous it is for her to stay in her job and how disrespectful she is being toward you.

5) Could the company replace her in five minutes with any of dozens candidates, or would it collapse, because it could not function without her unique, irreplaceable talents? YES. Your wife is completely unremarkably replaceable.

6) If your wife destroys her marriage for the sake of remaining in her job, how easy will it be for her to replace her marriage? NOT VERY LIKELY for a woman about to be in her 40s with two young children. Her AP doesn't want a permanent relationship with her. He was just enjoying the validation and sex.

7) Ask your wife (and you really should ask here this as soon as possible):

-What is more important: what you have built at work, or what you have built in ten years of marriage?

-Who is more important to you: your boyfriend, or your husband?

Or you can both continue circling the elephant in the room for months, maybe even years, with her still in that job, still going to conferences where she promises to keep it strictly business with the guy, and maybe everything will turn out great for all concerned.

Sorry for being so blunt, but leaving that job is number one at the top of the 'to do' list if she has any intention of saving the marriage. Or number seventeen on the list if she wants to keep seeing her boyfriend.

Hi Masters,

I know hard all this must be for you, but it seems you are continually exacerbating and prolonging your pain by not being honest with yourself. Early on you said that if your WW crossed the line and had a PA it would be a deal breaker for you and that you would D her. SINCE THEN, YOU HAVE DONE EVERYTHING YOU CAN NOT TO LEARN THE TRUITH. Think about that. Most everyone on here believes, with good reason, that WW fucked POS VP in both Dallas and the trip afterward where she emailed him at 1:30 am (after he had left her room?) and told him she missed him. You are telling yourself that you’ll be OK with however this turns out while letting her call the tune. In reality, your still just doing a new version of the pick me dance.

Finally, the withholding of sex under the guise that she needs to feel emotionally connected to you before she can do that is just baffling. You’ve been married for years and are supposed both working on your relationship and yet she doesn’t want to get physical. Good God, how long did it take her just seeing the POS VP at work to get emotionally connected enough with him to have sex? I believe you are being played here.

You should go back and read and re-read your entire thread – especially your own posts. Every single time you got tough or drew a line, she threw you a bone and you took it and went right back to being the I’m a nice guy, please pick me.

There’s a lot of other things in your most recent post that I’d like to comment on, but I’ll leave that to others who I’m sure will be along soon and can maybe offer more compelling commentary. I’m sorry if what I’m saying sounds hard, but my God, this is just painful to watch unfold.

Masters2020:

You have done a lot of really good things to get yourself to where you are now. You have enumerated them quite well. You have taken some advice here and not others. You do you. You take the advice you can use and leave the rest. It sounds like your head is in a good place. It sounds like your WW is taking steps. Good. If you can live with your WW continuing in her current job without driving you batty, so be it. You know the risks. You take care of you and your family the best you can. Keep on, keepin on.

It sounds like your WW is taking steps. Good. If you can live with your WW continuing in her current job without driving you batty, so be it.

I don’t mean to be argumentative, but I will be. It doesn’t sound like his wife is taking many steps at all. Not at all. It sounds like she’s in limerence and has convinced him to go along with it.

As for being able to live with her working with the AP she fucked without going batty, I think the chances are slim to none. It’s almost unheard of.

Good luck.

Thumos:

Not argumentative at all. You always make cogent and relevant comments that I respect. However, I stand by the minimal opinion I rendered. In his last three or four posts Masters has laid out the steps his WW is taking and he likes the direction the relationship is headed. Although you or I may not think her actions are much, Masters does, and his opinion is the one that counts in the final analysis. Although MC is not usually recommended at this juncture, he reports positive results for he and his WW in MC. For every tried and true SI rule there are exceptions I guess. To each his own. Good for them. Masters stated that his WW is not leaving her job, he gave the reasons, and that he is not worried about her remaining in the job or that she will continue her A. Although his attitude may be unheard of, he doesn’t seem too bothered by her remaining in her job. But if she does fall again he said he will deal with it. I believe him. Kudos to Masters and his WW as long as she does what he requires to try and rebuild their M. From what he described he is in a better place emotionally and getting there physically. Strength to him moving forward.

[This message edited by fareast at 6:59 AM, January 10th (Friday)]

his opinion is the one that counts in the final analysis

True dat

Fareast, I really appreciate your words of encouragement.

I think I'm going to set away for a bit from this site. I appreciate the advice, but no matter what I say, I get a lot of firm push back. My situation is different, every single person's situation is different. We're all different people, handle things differently, look at things differently, etc. No matter what I say or how I frame things, I seem to get a negative response from a lot of people. I understand, you've been hurt and are trying to spare me the hurt, which I appreciate. However, things that are said make me question everything again, which I've done thousands of time, every day. It leads me to a negative place, which leads me to get depressed, which leads me to want to go back to my wife and ask more questions, which are answers I've received countless times.

If she's lying about it after I had her swear to God and on her children's life, then that's her choice. I can't control everything in her life and I'm not going to try. I KNOW she's now trying, I KNOW the affair is over, I know she's somewhere in the middle of knowing how much this all hurt me, our family, etc. She's making efforts, she's learning, and we're trying to make this work. I'm trying to figure out what I want, who I want.

I truly believe they didn't have sex. Could I be wrong, yes. Do I think they would have had sex, yes. She's admitted to me she doesn't know what she was thinking and takes 100% blame for the affair. The MC has helped our situation and helped her realize a lot of situations.

I've had hundreds of hours of conversations with my wife about the affair. Not to mention I've know her for 10 years. If she's doing things and hiding them again, as I've told her, that's on her. I can't and won't worry about everything for the rest of my life. It's not the life I want.

He's 40 and she's 40, if they can't be mature enough after the hell they've put me, his wife, etc, all through, to not contact each other at work about personal stuff, then there is nothing I can do about it. If I force her out of the job, will that necessarily stop them talking, nope. Free will, we all have it and use it. If that's the hill she wants to die on, so be it. I've told her if she has any personal contact with him and I find out, I'm done, period, no questions asked.

As for a lawsuit, it will destroy our marriage and her career, and be very detrimental to our family. I'm NOT going down that path right now, please respect that decision.

I love my kids more than life itself. Has this clouded my judgement, absolutely. I want a happy family and I'm willing to work at it, no matter what that means. We're in a better place and it's getting better every day. I'm getting happier, making changes to better myself, and I'm still checking her phone and email to make sure. Please appreciate the positive aspects of what I'm saying and where I'm at, in MY situation. May it all change and I come back and say, you were all right, maybe. But I'm willing to take that chance at getting hurt again. If I can deal with THIS, I can deal with a lot. I finished reading David Goggins book right before this situation happened, ironically enough. What I took out of it was that every new low shows you how much you can take, how strong you are. Well, I've handled these last 3 months, I feel like I can walk through fire. If another fire starts, I'll deal with it. But right now, I'm enjoying the sunshine and taking it one day at a time.

God Bless.

I respect your position. We each have to walk our own path. What I couldn’t handle, another, like you, could.

So I truly wish you well. If things change and you decide you want to pursue telling her that true reconciliation can’t occur while she has ANY contact with the AP, including business only, then please come back and we can discuss how to approach that.

Take care and good luck to you and your family.

Wish you well as you go forward. As a ending thought, a lot of this group has unfortunately seen this played out 99 percent the same way. Can your one be different. Many have hoped(hopium) that there one is.

The same stories. The same explanation. The same result.

All it requires, is for the right opportunity, and in your situation, a more willing AP.

When a woman emotionally attaches to some one, it is really hard to break.

If your wife not only realizes the magnitude of what she has done, but despises her actions, and the AP, you have a good chance.

If you read some of the stories in the Wayward section, you will see this. You will also read others who had harder time disconnecting. It took them time and 'space' from there situation for them to finally let go.

The distance helps them to disconnect and see more clearly. Its like the '180'.

If she fully engages back into the relationship, do like wise. If not you will realize what you are dealing with. The old quote 'actions speak louder than words'.

If she is not seeing her own IC, it's a 'must'. Make it a requirement of reconciliation. She needs someone professional to help her see the wider picture.

Hopefully this year is the best year for you and your family.

Hey Masters

Its understandable that you would want to fight for your family, we all do but we also do not want to rug sweep as it has long term side effects. With that being said this platform is always available at any point you wish to come back or even if things get even more better please let us know so we can be happy for you.

All the best !

Hi Masters,

I know I’ve been very blunt in my posts. It was never my intention to add to your pain. I’ve spent countless hours on here reading, learning and trying to make sense of both mine and others situations. I think many of us come here thinking our situation is unique and that our WWs don’t fit “the pattern”. I initially thought that too. I’ve come to the conclusion that 99% of them do. Most WWs are relieved and more than happy to have their spouses believe it didn’t go as far as it actually did and to have the M just carry on. Hats off to those spouses that are comfortable with never really knowing and go on to try and build a new M.. I sometimes wish I could have been able to do that.

I would hate to have you leave this forum. It’s a really, really valuable resource. I won’t post again here and hopefully that will make you more comfortable staying here. I truly hope you’re right and you and your W can work this out. Best of luck!

Masters:

Good luck to you, your WW, and your family moving forward.

All the best.

Masters, we're all pulling for you. I've been blunt in my posts but it's because I'm practically desperate for a newly betrayed husband to avoid the pitfalls and mistakes I made. I've been in painful three year limbo with my WW, a hell of my own making, and I wouldn't wish that kind of hell on anyone (except for my wife's AP).

This happened because I didn't implement the "package of non-negotiables" I recommended to you right away.

I did implement some of it, and that helped put the "shock and awe" in place bigtime initially, but not all of it.

Now, at the close of 2019 and the beginning of 2020, I've implemented all of it. I can only tell my own experience and I wish I'd done it all much sooner, right way before and after D-Day. I'm very glad I've done it all now. I'm much more clear-headed -- and as I've said it's not a panacea for any situation, but only a prerequisite for properly dealing with infidelity.

We're all on our own path and I wish you nothing but the very best going forward. Remember you are the prize, not her. Remember you didn't deserve this. And remember to value yourself above all. Take care.

If she's lying about it after I had her swear to God and on her children's life, then that's her choice

I don't wish to alarm you, Masters, but a lot of us had WW's who took the same oath before God -- almost word for word what your WW said. And they were lying. So a blood oath before God generally is worthless in an adultery situation.

You and I might take this seriously -- so gravely seriously we would never take an oath before God or on our children's lives if we weren't telling the truth.

Unfortunately, adulterers don't think this same way. And they've already shown that by committing adultery in the first place.

Just so you know.

[This message edited by Thumos at 5:48 PM, January 10th (Friday)]