SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Fuck everything okay. Just fuck it all.

God help me, some of you all made your damn point well enough.

To hell with having most waywards actually ask BS's any damn questions or try to help them feel fucking respected, welcomed or supported in any way.

Perish the damn fucking thought.

I have my answer, it seems.

[This message edited by Cephastion at 4:15 PM, December 13th (Friday)]

To hell with having most waywards actually ask BS's any damn questions or try to help them feel fucking respected, welcomed or supported in any way.

I really am trying to understand where you are coming from here, Ceph. To me, I look at the entire Wayward Side Forum as the thread you are requesting. There are many threads WS start asking for input from BS's, they have questions and get answers.

Now this might be me reading between the lines, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the impression that you'd like this thread so you could feel respected, welcomed and supported. Is that a possibility or am I completely off base?

During the many years this site has existed there have been a number of times that members have voiced the opinion that SI has changed. Deeply Scared would start a thread with the topic title "SI Has Changed." I spent some time digging into the archives this afternoon and found one that she started November 12th, 2013.

In her own words:

Deeply Scared would have loved to see SI continue as we envisioned when we founded it.

It takes all of us working together to keep this a safe place for everyone surviving infidelity.

I've cried my damn fucking tears now and tried to calm down not scare the kids with the really dark place I was at there for a little while...

Thank you Mangled Heart for THAT. (And your wife as well, of course)

I said a very similar thing about people changing much less eloquently just a little while ago in a PM just a little earlier this afternoon... about any one of us (BS or WS or whatever) changing for better or for worse and even back again in either direction at any given time.

I was not blaming this website or its concept and have not done so at any time that I am aware of.

I will say that neither you nor she ever helped me down into a very dark place however.

That oftentimes takes people and a lot of existing pain and a lack of empathy or respect in my opinion. Not a support themed website that's designed and regulated and moderated against such evils.

The fact that I felt as dark and invalidated as I did just an hour ago, isn't just everyone else's fault.

But there are people who help a situation and people who hurt a situation...and I really wanted help instead of feeling more hurt or alienation and discarded and disrespected today.

I see you, Ceph, and I see your pain. I wish I could do something for you but I don't have the words. I am in not a good place myself and am very emotional right now. I am sorry that I can not be a better support for you but please know I hold you in my thoughts and prayers ( < and I do pray, even though you know I have no idea if there is a god or not, I just don't pray to a god, I send my prays into the universe). Always, friend!

Sistermilkshake... I'm so sorry to hear that you are struggling as well!

I tried to PM you just now but your mail is full.

I've still got enough heart to try and offer you some. I'll see what's going on on your other threads.

Please feel free to continue posting here on this one if you want. I am really honestly just glad to be considered a friend.

[This message edited by Cephastion at 6:19 PM, December 13th (Friday)]

Thank you, Ceph. Yes, I wanted to PM you, too, but I wasn't able to, and I am just don't have the energy to free up space. I am not posting about my struggle right now because every time I try to I just get too overwhelmed. I will be fine. I am having a hard, sad day.

But there are people who help a situation and people who hurt a situation...and I really wanted help instead of feeling more hurt or alienation and discarded and disrespected today.

In all fairness, you didn't share your pain until much later in the thread. You need to help us, help you. If you are in a bad place, because of what's going on in your life, share that. Tell us you are looking for some support. Had you opened this thread with this:

I was pretty much without my wife and most of my kids this Thanksgiving. My younger 2 are home with me and happy to be there but my daughter was crying yesterday because she misses her mother and other 3 missing siblings.

My wife isn't with them or us. She's sleeping in a cargo van. Actually I found some lodging for her with a couple that we know, so this last week she was there instead of just in a Walmart parking lot.

She basically refuses to post here. Says it's too hard for her.

Won't go to my wayward-ish son's houses because she blames their shit on herself.

Won't go to her enabling mother's house because that's what she in our early marriage did that partly got me and her to be members here on SI.

I didn't even get a greeting from my other 3 kids this Thanksgiving. Much less dinner together as a family.

And everyone seems to want it this way. Except for my wife actually and the 2 younger ones and myself.

The direction of this thread would have been very very different. You would receive the support you seek.

I was not blaming this website or its concept and have not done so at any time that I am aware of.

I have not seen you ever do that, and didn't read your posts that way on this thread either.

There were a couple other posts that implied that SI had changed since DS was no longer here. The policies have remained the same, but she did leave a vacuum when her participation on the forums ended. She had a way of helping people that left a legacy I am very proud of. That, coupled with her senior role here made her a powerful force to contend with.

She will forever be missed.

I am a BW and I’m also a mental health professional.

Unfortunately, all the skills, knowledge, training, and clinical assessments in the world do me no good with myself. The first thing we learn is that we can’t treat ourselves or those closest to us. That said, when I visit this site, I usually read the Wayward forum more often that the betrayed ones. I can already relate to and understand the feelings and experiences of the betrayed side, the wayward side...not so much.

It’s a window into another way of being, although I too have noticed the wayward forum is an echo chamber. Yeah, there is some good work done by a majority of the members, but the potential is stunted. Even some of the veteran W seem to miss the script when talking about affect upon or how to help their spouses, and even searching for their whys. I think it’s because there’s an ocean of difference in the way the selfless and the selfish think. Blind leading the blind and all that. So, there is a great sense of understanding and relatability, but little reason to experience the challenge of looking at life through another’s lens.

As far as questions wayward may want to ask the betrayed... I’ve read a handful or two of those in the W forum over the years, but I rarely answer them. I have this fear of giving advice that a lazy wayward may use without really examining the info. Like a cheat sheet to get back in their hurt partners good graces. Early in my membership to the site I was actually warned by another BS that was a thing on the W forum to be careful of.

[This message edited by LongSigh at 9:27 PM, December 13th (Friday)]

Believe it or not, I have actually read this entire thread. That's something I have never done before when one gets this long.

What I do know is that she made me feel like she as an ex-wayward really did what I was asking for here.

I copied this because I could not figure out what you were asking for. After reading a little further, my guess is that you are trying to find a way for your WW to feel safe and comfortable enough here to post. You want her to want to change and you think this site could help, if only she weren't scared of it. You can tell me if I'm wrong.

Your WW has to be willing to open herself up to get help here. She has to be willing to risk getting hurt, maybe even clobbered. She's not willing to do that. We can't make her.

I joined this site when DS was still here. I don't recall having any interactions with her. I don't recall reading any of her posts, either. So, I can't speak to her contributions. However, I did take a break from this site right around the time she passed, I guess. When I came back at the end of 2018, I felt the atmosphere here had changed. It seemed much more volatile, less kind and supportive. A lot people seemingly yelling at all BPs to D as quickly as possible no matter what. There are now some members who I do my best to just ignore. Take what you need, and leave the rest.

I also feel your pain. This can be a hard time of year for some people, in general. Add on traumas and it can become unbearable. I'm sorry you are feeling alone and abandoned by your family. Can you get any support or sense of belonging at your church?

Now, for a 2X4. I mean this as gently as I can. I am coming from a place of wanting to help you out of your pain. I know we've had our differences in past posts. I hope we can overcome that.

IIRC, the last time I interacted with you, Ceph, on this site, I asked you if you were willing to consider another POV. Your response clearly expressed that you were not. I stopped interacting with you after that because I didn't see the point. You ask for others POVs, but if they go against yours, you outright reject them. You state how helpful it is for us to step out of our comfort zones as see the other side, but you refuse to do that.

You have done that repeatedly on this thread. Loukas (who is one member I generally disagree with ) asked you essentially the same question and you responded in the same way. You became defensive and accusatory. It is clear that you are not really open to examining your own ideas and behaviors and others' POVs.

You keep stomping your feet and becoming defensive, accusatory, and aggressive when you don't get what you expected. Those damn expectations! You certainly have the right to expect whatever you want. As long as you hang on to those expectations, you will continue to be disappointed. Those of us suggesting you reconsider your expectations are trying to help you find peace. We are not attacking you. Disagreement is not equal to invalidation or not having or showing empathy.

If you could take a step back, take a deep breath (or 5), and read here with a completely open mind, not taking anything personally, you might find what you're looking for. We can't help you if you don't let us.

I sincerely do wish you peace, a way to find contentment within yourself. If you can do that, these difficult times won't be as painful.

Ok. I read through this whole thread.

It stands to reason then in my own mind that most waywards are not going to naturally ask many of the "obvious" questions that a betrated would take for granted or boldly ask about themselves

I think that is why a lot of people who've cheated (I personally think the term WS is utter nonsense, though I also understand that many people don't want to think of themselves, or their spouses, as cheaters) should read JFO. I do not think a thread for WS to ask BS questions is going to lead to cheaters asking the "right" questions.

For BS's and other Waywards to SEE point #1 (and the possible glaring need or deficit thereof in their own thinking as well) in action as it occurs

I don't think a thread like that will helpmchesters see a deficit in their own thinking, unless you mean the BS's response might help them see their own deficits.

But I think that cheaters who want to learn their own deficits, they post questions so that BS's can reply, and learn that way.

And I get your point. When cheaters post in WS, they get responses from cheaters, and sometimes from those who've been betrayed. With a WS to BS thread, only betrayed people will respond.

The problem is, that thread got very little traffic. And I think it's becauseonly a truly remorseful spouse would post to a thread like that, and I think there are few of those, far fewer than those who've been betrayed. I mean, look at BS for WS - it is the same people who are answering the questions. There are many asking a lot of questions, but very few people who answer. They answer a ton of questions.

Cephastion, I read this whole thread. I am so sorry. I think your wife could post on here and ask that people be gentle. It hsppens, and most people are kind. But your wife doesn't want to post here and there is nothing you can do about it. It sounds like she is not being empathetic to your needs at all, and that is horrible. And it sounds like neither of you has much of a healthy support system, which makes everything harder

I am so sorry your mother died when you were 19. I cannot imagine the pain. And then to not be able to have her support through all this, that is unimaginable. However, that is what happened. Maybe you can try building your own support network, outside if your family.

Here is the thing. The only person you are guaranteed to be with for the rest of your life is you. And what if your wife never Kearns empathy? You don't deserve to feel alone like this.

I dug through this a couple times before really grasping even what had morphed into such a heated discussion...

I think a lot of WSs on here certainly have a lot to learn, myself included. One of the millions of shit parts of the deal is that we START this race steps ahead of those we betrayed- We knew what we were doing and it was a secret. HOWEVER, the repair of individual character that goes into a cheater working against a LIFETIME of flawed thinking and emotional stunting can be a far slower process. And as restated the task is beyond so many.

There are victims who have back stories that prevent healing as well, but they also possess a degree of emotional character that better enables them to work through it, as opposed to throwing up their hands and saying the world’s against them- The response of an unprepared/ill equipped cheater.

All to say that there are reasons beyond cowardice that lead to WSs tending to self-isolate on here. My goal as a man who isn’t going to R is simply to do what you ultimately came to ask- To help others see what they can’t see themselves. And ultimately I’m better qualified to do it than a BS because I’ve been in the mind of a selfish bastard. For 41 years (Ok, 39-ish of them being conscious/sentient.) I also appreciate the opportunity to provide that insight when I can narrowly do so on ICR. But I think the empathy that WSs are best with is in challenging EACH OTHER when the flawed perspectives we recognize from our own past surface.

I try hard not to elevate the knowledge we have because it comes at the cost of thousands of innocent souls who we have shit on. But it is unique and is one of the values of having both parties present. But you simply can’t wade in with the expectation that everyone here has the same goals, understanding, or potentials.

At some level or another, I believe that I should have certain rights and a certain amount of decent consideration from people who either say they are part of supporting (like a lifepartner or friend or SI poster) or else happen to be in the position of being part of supporting (like a policeman or teacher or family member or forum mod) rather than destroying.

At some level or another, I believe that those rights and considerations should apply to others around me as well whether they are under my care and authority (such as my children or my dementia-afflicted grandpa was) or an innocent bystander or caregiver to me, such as my mom or anyone else that isn't actively destroying lives for fun and pleasure and whatever else motives such behavior.

I watched my dad almost kill my mother when I was 4. He did it because she was trying to stop his merciless beating of me for curiously grabbing my mother's mysterious lipstick and then running away out of fear when he yelled at me with fierce anger to give it back and get my beating for touching it.

I tried to get his attention when I saw her head hit the endtable corner on her way down to the floor and she lay there motionless and with blood everywhere, but he was much too intent and engrossed in giving me what he felt that I had coming to me in spite of my mother's pleas and attempted interference. He took a long time with his continued beating of me on my bed before he finally heard me screaming about mom being dead or seriously hurt, for that matter.

My expectations that I should be heard were violated.

My mother's expectations that she should be heard were most horribly violated.

I was run over by a woman in a 70's style station wagon when I was 10 or 11. I screamed for help while she was dragging me under her car for two miles over paved city streets. Even my grandma who was with me quite a few steps ahead of all of this also screamed for help and for the woman to fucking stop and threw her mulitcolored umbrella into the street in protest and horror. Thankfully, I had my backpack on with my Charlie Brown metal lunchbox in it at the time.

I had an expectation to be heard when I was under the damn vehicle screaming for help and to not be lied to like I felt I was when I had politely waited beside the car on the sidewalk at the store outlet where the car was turning right onto the street. The woman waved me to go across in front of her when I paused and waited for her to enter traffic.

When I broke my arm in the same year in a roller skating fall, I had an expectation to get medical attention and some comfort from others as well. My arm snapped at the wrist and my hand was facing me when it should have faced outwards instead. But since I very painfully twisted it back to ease the horrific pain a bit, no one believed me and instead I got called a "faggot" for having my hand held limp from the pain.

When I got married, I needed help with my grandpa. My wife changed her mind about wanting to do that and also insisted that I fire the only good help option that we had. Then she left me for another high school sweetheart wannabe after our daughter died in miscarriage with me having to be the midwife in the first year of our marriage in 1993. I had expectations that she was going to be supportive instead of fucking destructive. My grandpa died a few weeks later just about this very day of the year, in fact, in a kind of nursing care because the owner/operator nurse of the facility violated our verbal and written agreements about not using any tranquilizers or other certain meds and methods on my beloved grandpa.

This week, with my wife leaving us to go living in the van and elsewhere since the day before Thanksgiving, I wanted to pay the bills and get fuel and groceries. I didn't realize that she took the checkbook and all the passwords and account information along with her when she left. When I called her on my cell phone and told her to come home after the home phones and internet were shut off due to non-payment/sketchy payments for multiple months, she came without the info that was needed and lied to me by playing dumb about everything yet refusing to comply with bringing the necessary material to get things paid. Instead, when I crumpled up a $10 recycling service bill in frustration for how irrelevant of a "bill" it was that she was willing to be present for paying with me, she acted like she was being beaten and headed for the door to abandon me and the kids once again. I thought she was even possibly going to hit my 14 year old daughter who was in tears asking her mommy not to leave while sitting on the couch as my 16 year old son watched all of this in sorrow and consternation feeling helpless as to what to do to get her to care or be a part of helping rather than just making things miserable and difficult.

I have expectations that my children shouldn't have to fear me or their mother or financial devastation and betrayal and abandonments.

I have expectations that if I ask for WS's to ask me questions when they post on my very own thread then I should have that expectation honored in some way instead of always being told why I have no right to any damn thing in this fucking life at all like a wife or children or parents or honesty or civility or any kind of respect whatsofuckingever.

And when I marvel out loud at how bullied I feel and how defrauded of my rights or expectations I feel by people around me...and ask for reasons as to WHY I have no rights or support...they just tell me that they have the right to not bother or care or give me anything like a straight answer as to "why?"

They tell me that I have no right to any "expectations".

They tell me that I have no rights.

At least that's what I'm getting out of all of this anyway.

I'm sorry you're hurting this morning.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 6:23 AM, December 15th (Sunday)]

I have asked for help with my wife and people almost universally respond the same damn way. They don't have to care or help or give a fucking DAMN about anything or anyone if they don't feel like it. Pastors, friends, family, counselors, everyone.

This was also true on the day of my mother's funeral.

My (bdad's brother) uncle came in to my bedroom that awful morning and his greeting to me was to punch me in the chest so hard with that ring-infested fist of his that it knocked the wind out of me and threw me up against my dresser and he then literally threatened my life right then and there. I was about 110lbs at 18 years old (two days away from turning 19, I guess) and he was about 300lbs I believe.

He proceeded to forcibly take the keys to mine and my grandpa's car and house and everything out of the pocket of my pants against my will and tell me that he was gonna drive me to my mother's funeral in HIS car and I have no right or power to say or do otherwise.

There were approximately 70 people in and around our house that day when the next part occurred. I counted.

I very politely but firmly asked for my keys back.

He refused. I asked again very respectfully but just a bit louder. He refused again...somewhat angrily and mockingly.

I increased the insistence and volume of my "request" each time I asked until I was fairly loud and virtually impossible to ignore in that cookie cutter house.

Not one person would do a damn thing about it except to take me aside and tell me to just hush and that they would give me a ride.

I wanted my damn keys and honor and my mother's and grandfather's honor back. I didn't want a damn ride.

Last night when I asked my wife to come home for an hour to show me and the kids how to take over the online marketing of our animals, she refused. She said she wanted a witness there. I told her she could get all the damn witnesses she wanted but to stop hijacking our ability to pay bills and keep food on the table and to simply have a Christmas for the 2 children that are still here with her controlling and bullying and lies and abuse of me and everything else.

NOPE.

She refused.

Why? Because even though I've never hit her or even threatened her with a damn thing a single day her life...she doesn't "feel safe" and just can't bring herself to do anything that she isn't totally comfortable with right now.

So when I had my son pick out his own flavor of ice cream 3 days ago at the gas station convenience store (on our way to getting a $30 part for his stranded/stripped still-out-in-the-rain 1985 4 wheeler) and tried to pay the $5.55 for it at the counter, the girl tells me to my utter horror that there are "insufficient funds" for that very meager purchase...

Yeah...

I guess my expectations this Christmas are just too damn high and unfuckingreasonable.

And I guess that it's all just me. I'm the one to blame for all of that shit.

I'm not discounting some of what was said here by Cocoplus:

Now, for a 2X4. I mean this as gently as I can. I am coming from a place of wanting to help you out of your pain. I know we've had our differences in past posts. I hope we can overcome that.

IIRC, the last time I interacted with you, Ceph, on this site, I asked you if you were willing to consider another POV. Your response clearly expressed that you were not. I stopped interacting with you after that because I didn't see the point. You ask for others POVs, but if they go against yours, you outright reject them. You state how helpful it is for us to step out of our comfort zones as see the other side, but you refuse to do that.

You have done that repeatedly on this thread. Loukas (who is one member I generally disagree with ) asked you essentially the same question and you responded in the same way. You became defensive and accusatory. It is clear that you are not really open to examining your own ideas and behaviors and others' POVs.

You keep stomping your feet and becoming defensive, accusatory, and aggressive when you don't get what you expected. Those damn expectations! You certainly have the right to expect whatever you want. As long as you hang on to those expectations, you will continue to be disappointed. Those of us suggesting you reconsider your expectations are trying to help you find peace. We are not attacking you. Disagreement is not equal to invalidation or not having or showing empathy.

If you could take a step back, take a deep breath (or 5), and read here with a completely open mind, not taking anything personally, you might find what you're looking for. We can't help you if you don't let us.

I have no problem with general disagreement. If I did, then I wouldn't be able to stand a great number of people that I encounter. But I do expect an answer or explanation from people who want to very vaguely accuse me of non-specifics or things that I don't fathom on my own damn thread asking for questions and answers.

And just telling me that I have no rights to anything...including even a damn answer as to why they believe such absolute utter madness...is not helpful at all to me right now.

At least Cocoplus5nuts's response didn't seem so irrational and entitlement minded or insulting, even if I'm still not clear on what it is that she feels that I'm doing wrong here.

And believe me, she and I have had our differences in the past, even over some of this very thing, I believe.

[This message edited by Cephastion at 7:03 AM, December 15th (Sunday)]

I'm sorry you're hurting this morning.

Thank you, Wifehad5.

I apologize for reading and confusing the texts from WOES wrong thinking they were from you initially when I was seeing red with pain the other day.

I am actually doing better today at this point at least.

I boxed my wife's clothes up with my 2 sweet, grieving children last night.

I cannot continue subjecting myself and the children to her psychological and financial bullying and abuse of us.

I'm trying to do the 180, but it's pretty hard to do at Christmas when you're broke and then some with so many responsibilities and the children already overwhelmed by the desertion of their other siblings and mother and the world in general.

Hell, they don't even have any damn relatives to reach out to within a thousand miles that aren't in this pirate's cove.

Wifehad5, can you make any sense of this thing that people on here are saying to me?

I've never felt disrespected by you that I can ever recall.

I have even had disagreements with Sisoon and maybe you and some of the other mods at times as well as numerous others on SI at times, but I can't recall you or the other mods saying anything like this to me even when I've been corrected for something or a goofed up perspective or missing the boat.

Even DS corrected me once or more times, I think. And I KNOW that I got into it with Sisoon last winter/spring even along some very similar lines, as I recall.

Why are people saying that I have no rights or that expectations are unreasonable to have??

It sounds like sheer madness and utter lunacy to me.

(Sisoon never said any such nonsense about expectations or rights being unreasonable for a person to have... but just that I was really defensive or something along those lines. It's been awhile though. I just remember that I didn't like it being suggested that I was likely to go on a killing spree like Rambo or something just because I was upset at being bullied by slander and false-victimhood. As far as I know, Sisoon and I are pretty much okay with one another)

[This message edited by Cephastion at 7:00 AM, December 15th (Sunday)]

Hi again, Ceph.

I've been thinking about you over the weekend and trying to figure out how to meet you where you are, and this quote from this morning more or less encapsulates where I had arrived.

I wanted my damn keys and honor and my mother's and grandfather's honor back. I didn't want a damn ride.

I think a whole bunch of things were at work in your Friday posts, and they were all tangled together by a current trauma of which we were unaware. And I think (and I mean this in the most respectful way, and I'm hoping it doesn't make you feel condescended to or psychoanalyzed) that what you were asking for and what you really needed were confused as a result. To summarize, you didn't want a ride, you wanted the keys.

I have a dear friend who is going through some very traumatic things right now. I'm also struggling with some stuff that's way too complicated to explain on SI. Suffice it to say, we're both in a bad place and feeling overwhelmed by all that we have to do. And yet, what we both realized was how much help it was for us to be able to do something for each other. It was empowering. It made us feel some control in circumstances where a lot is going on that we really cannot control at all.

I've talked with my BH about how SI does this for me. There are things I write here that I feel are helpful. I write them in part because I want to help others, but also because it's something that calms and centers me in the chaos of my life. It's a thing that I've worked hard to learn, and I feel competent to respond in a helpful way, whereas I am totally at sea with other unexpected personal and family challenges that are unrelated to infidelity. Of course, as a wayward, I have to keep a hard eye on that, because we live for external validation, and that would be a very bad trajectory for me here if not carefully examined. I rely a lot on my BH to help me audit that.

When you came and said that you needed to be asked questions by WS so that we can learn things and show remorse, what I saw was "prove remorse," like it was a demand. But what I think I saw when rereading your responses (and it took several reads, tbh) is that you need to feel what I just described. Your WW has taken all the passcodes, the money, the support, and quite literally the power. You're sitting in darkness without the ability to buy your kid an ice cream. So you came here, which is a place you know and where you know you have experience and insight to offer, looking to both be comforted and to give comfort. And we didn't know that, so we wrote, "Thanks, but there are plenty of great BS insights here," and you felt rejected and rebuffed.

I also feel guilty because I think I steered the discussion towards the comments you made about DS in a way that you did not intend. I do think site culture has changed without her guiding energy, but your grief was more personal. It seems to me that you feel that if she had been here when you came to find what you needed, she would have pulled out a chair and poured you a mug of hot chocolate and asked you questions. Your sadness reads like you believe she would have seen you, that she would have helped you find your keys.

I think it was hard for me to get all that because of the way your story unfolded. And of course, I could be way off base. It's meant to be supportive, and I hope that it doesn't come across as wayward lecturing.

I'm going to post it now in hopes that the thread hasn't gone haywire while I'm over here writing War and Peace.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 10:12 AM, December 15th (Sunday)]

Cephastion, I've read this entire thread many times. As an impartial observer, I don't read any of the responses as disrespecting YOU. They were taking your posts at face value, and adding their perspective which doesn't always align with yours.

Reading your latest posts adds some context. You're hurting, rightfully so. You've been through, and are going through some horrible things. I can't imagine the heartbreak you are going through right now, for your wife, your kids, and yourself. I think now is the time for you to listen to the flight attendants. Save yourself, then your kids that are with you. Get that settled, and then do what you can to help your wife. You have to put you and your younger kids first now.

From what you've written, you've been let down by just about everyone in your life. I can imagine that makes it hard to ask for help or support. What do you need this morning? How can we help you?