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I dunno Ceph, it’s pretty rare to see anybody, BS/WS alike go out of their way and ask how folks are doing, and truly mean it. Far more often advice and opinions are offered as a reply, but that doesn’t imply a lack of empathy. Pinpointing when a more empathetic response is warranted vs some helpful advice can be tough at times, but I don’t see that changing, ever.

Personally, I believe that if someone is looking for empathetic responses, it is on them to ask for that. But to expect it? Well, if wishes were fishes...

[This message edited by Loukas at 11:02 AM, December 13th (Friday)]

I just want to say - that I have more BS's who PM me than any other group of people, and they check on me and they thank me, and they sometimes privately ask me things. If I post something on the wayward forum, I get more responses from BS than any other folks who have been there to strengthen my understanding.

That is because many here can see that you are an awesome person and people want to help those that help others. You have helped many of us.

Even though I rarely communicate with you, I read most of your posts and find your experiences and opinions useful. Same for BSR and several others here.

Cephastion,

What you are alleging did not happen. I never “attacked” you. There was no “vitriol.” I gave you my opinion, which I believe I stated reasonably clearly. For you to be upset or offended by my lack of enthusiastic agreement with your idea for a designated thread for WS questions to BS reads more like thinking a lack of validation for the suggestion = the lack of consideration to which you referred. Just because someone isn’t interested in an idea doesn’t mean they didn’t consider it.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 11:10 AM, December 13th (Friday)]

I've worked in or studied many organizations and schools with strong, visionary leadership. Really excellent principals or leaders.

When they retire, the strong culture that they have built takes 2-5 years to deteriorate (yes, it is oddly the same number). Longer time and less deterioration if the new leader is OK and there is no crisis. Shorter time and more deterioration if the new leader is not great and/or there is a crisis.

I think that's what you are seeing. Culture disintegration in a formerly stable system where one of the inputs was not replaced (I don't mean technically replaced, I mean that what was provided to the system was not replaced). It's re-stabilizing in an unpleasant form and no one is that interested in acknowledging it or discussing it or doing anything about it. I mostly try to help people damaged by it. They smartly get out when they are up on their feet or see what they have got themselves in to.

I'm sorry you miss your friend. She sounds wonderful and from what I have read I am sorry I was never around to get the hug-punch. The hugs are pretty much gone.

[This message edited by Pippin at 1:19 PM, December 15th (Sunday)]

Cephastion,

What you are alleging did not happen. I never “attacked” you. There was no “vitriol.” I gave you my opinion, which I believe I stated reasonably clearly. For you to be upset or offended by my lack of enthusiastic agreement with your idea for a designated thread for WS questions to BS reads more like thinking a lack of validation for the suggestion = the lack of consideration to which you referred. Just because someone isn’t interested in an idea doesn’t mean they didn’t consider it.--Darkness Falls

Let me rephrase my dilemma here.

I feel alone and alienated.

I have been attacked mercilessly myself for well over a year now, but not by SI posters for the most part.

When I was attacked on SI or felt like I was, it was last winter/spring and came from BETRAYEDS, not Waywards!

And that has been almost universally true in my personal life over the course of last year as well.

And yet...I believe that those non-Wayward people have been doing what my own WW has also done at very special times in our marriage...

Vilified me and projected like a damn movie projector whatever it is that they either wanted to see or just wanted to outright hate the fuck out of.

And even if I was the person that they were supposing me to be...that wouldn't excuse the abuse and bullying and slander and lies that they chose to exercise against my person and family. Even if I was a "Wayward", it wouldn't excuse any of that abandonment or being treated like absolute total shit.

So I'm mighty gunshy and shellshocked myself and have been for quite some time now.

And I come on here to kinda say "hey, how about some more dialogue and empathy between us ALL on here, since I've mostly been away for a year or so"

And I get people acting like they are attacked by me or sounding like they feel that way.

I am so damn tired of people in my real world life acting like they have to play victim or whatever just because I ask a question or smile and say "howdy".

Playing victim unfairly can be a form of attack.

But I'm so sensitive to it now that maybe I can't see my own zipper is down or something's in my own teeth.

The fact of the matter is that almost no one asked a question or really seemed to ask much of anything for a number of posts on my thread that was calling for just exactly that. What I got instead were reasons why I don't have the right to such or why that isn't going to work or doesn't typically work. Then it seemed like people felt accused of stuff.

I just wanted some support and to encourage the same.

((((((((((Cephastion))))))))))) You are an amazing person, Ceph. Sending you love and wishes for peace and serenity for you. ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️

And I come on here to kinda say "hey, how about some more dialogue and empathy between us ALL on here, since I've mostly been away for a year or so"

What do you think, has there been a dialogue on this thread?

[This message edited by Loukas at 12:04 PM, December 13th (Friday)]

What do you think, has there been a dialogue on this thread?--Loukas

Yes. I can say that there have been some very amazing things pointed out on here in the space of just a few short hours on a Friday morning during Christmas season.

Supportive dialogue? well...some yes and some no.

But now that I've gotten more and various kinds of input, I'm feeling a hell of a lot less invalidated than I did at some points and times recently.

I think that I've opened a serious can of worms here though.

And if I'm right about that, then the solution is not to deny the fact.

I was pretty much without my wife and most of my kids this Thanksgiving. My younger 2 are home with me and happy to be there but my daughter was crying yesterday because she misses her mother and other 3 missing siblings.

My wife isn't with them or us. She's sleeping in a cargo van. Actually I found some lodging for her with a couple that we know, so this last week she was there instead of just in a Walmart parking lot.

She basically refuses to post here. Says it's too hard for her.

Won't go to my wayward-ish son's houses because she blames their shit on herself.

Won't go to her enabling mother's house because that's what she in our early marriage did that partly got me and her to be members here on SI.

I didn't even get a greeting from my other 3 kids this Thanksgiving. Much less dinner together as a family.

And everyone seems to want it this way. Except for my wife actually and the 2 younger ones and myself.

Thank you for the hugs and love btw, SisterMilkshake. It means a lot coming from you.

Of course the other posters on here had no context or idea as to what I'm dealing with when I made up this topic for people to post on.

But a lot of people coming on here might be in a similar frame of mind. Just looking for support and dialogue and some help or answers as to what the world is coming to or if it's just them or not.

[This message edited by Cephastion at 12:32 PM, December 13th (Friday)]

I’m really sorry to hear your family was so split up during thanksgiving, Ceph.

Since you’ve provided a little more context, do you think you’d be able to tell me specifically what it is you hoped to achieve with this topic? I really am curious, I just know that sometimes when I try to speak to a group, my message gets lost. I can’t help but wonder if that has happened here. Would mind just directing your thoughts at me?

Would mind just directing your thoughts at me?

Sure, Loukas. Thanks for asking me to do so.

I want people like myself to solve what's wrong with them and their marriages and relationships.

We can't do that if we aren't in relationships that are interactive and involving people who aren't having the same literal perspective and blind spots that we ourselves have.

For example, if I am a guy that thinks women should be merely objects of lust and sex for men to rule over and hang out only with other guys that think and feel that way, then I'm never gonna feel that there's anything wrong or unhealthy or even potentially objectionable about such a perspective. I would have to interact outside of that circle of people and frame of reference in order to likely see how disgustingly selfish and one-sided that kind of thinking would be because all of my other "peer" chauvanists would see it the same way.

Additionally, if a person leaves a situation for a year and comes back and says that things seem to have changed, then people should consider that perspective and ask if it's the truth or not and account for it.

Furthermore, in my own personal case, I want people to see themselves and their own needs as well as mine and other people's needs whether they happen to tote around a scarlet letter W or not.

Shouldn't my wife and I feel like we are both able to be respected on here?

Shouldn't a thread asking for WS's to ask BS's questions get a fair shot at that even being tried?

If I don't have the right to expect for a fellow member WS on here to ask a question of me or another BS, then why is it that that's such an unreasonable request or expectation on my part?

It seems to only verify my point and assumption that WS's tend to not want to exercise empathy like my own WW seems to be so adverse to doing.

But for all I know, maybe BS's are just as lacking that commodity of empathy nowadays on here and in my real life as well.

Not a good sign, in my book.

No wonder she doesn't want to post on here...

[This message edited by Cephastion at 1:24 PM, December 13th (Friday)]

Ceph,

My heart breaks for you. Not only has you have to have the bad treatment of your wife, have had to watch her resume old ways, thinking of her being homeless and having everyone spread out for the holidays...that’s terrible. Given that context, maybe you should do a post about that - I think you will feel the outpour. What are you doing to take care of yourself? Do you have a live support system at all?

Thanks for the reply. I'm curious do you feel as though SI isn't a safe place for your wife to post?

I think you will feel the outpour. What are you doing to take care of yourself? Do you have a live support system at all?

My family is all dead. Other than my kids and wife.

I have no live support system.

I haven't really had one since the day I said my vows.

Thanks for the reply. I'm curious do you feel as though SI isn't a safe place for your wife to post?

Idk. As recently as a couple of days ago, she referred to this place as "my (BH) precious SI" with some disdain in her voice about how highly I regard it.

After this morning and how I left things last winter/spring though...I guess that's partly what I'm hoping to do is to dip my toe into the waters and see what happens and how the water is.

Are you dipping your toes in for yourself or your wife, or both?

For myself and her and anyone really.

I have a number of posts on here since 2016 and some of them are actually rather lengthy.

People and places and things do change, however, either for better or for worse or both.

If SI has some awful illness or witchhunt fever, then we need to fix it.

If it doesn't, then we shouldn't feel so out of whack in my opinion.

I want this to be what it was and maybe still is.

But a person has to know what they are dealing with in order to deal with it.

Are you willing to accept that your perception could be different than others?

Are you willing to accept that your perception could be different than others?

At this point, I'm frankly hoping for that to be the case.

As I said earlier, I don't know what happened.

I didn't expect to feel invalidated for wanting WS's to simply ask questions and interact with BS's in a way that opened themselves up to being on the asking and reaching out end of the equation instead of the silent or lurking or responding end.

My perception about the current situation with both my own real life as well as this thread at this point is "To Be Determined".

But whether my perception is different from others about Deeply Scared and her effect on me and other on here or not, I don't intend to entertain having that one challenged at ALL. Period.

I wouldn't be asking questions or asking for dialogue or for questions to be asked if I wasn't up for allowing others to share different perceptions, Loukas.

I am obviously a wildcard religiously speaking among other things as can be ascertained by my tagline below my every post.

I wouldn't be on here for several years if I couldn't take a different perspective being shared

If I don't have the right to expect for a fellow member WS on here to ask a question of me or another BS, then why is it that that's such an unreasonable request or expectation on my part?

It seems to only verify my point and assumption that WS's tend to not want to exercise empathy like my own WW seems to be so adverse to doing.

First, I want to say I am sorry you are going through this. Do you have a counselor or any professional to help you deal with your feelings and the wreckage your WW caused.

Personally, I think it is unreasonable to have any expectations outside of the guidelines. Expectations create a need for a specific action. A specific action requires performance. Performance creates a need to adhere to a standard. Adherence to a standard displaces authenticity of the individual contributions. Authenticity is what makes SI great and valuable.

I can't speak for all BHs, but I know that during reconciliation I questioned my WW authenticity. Were her actions motivated by genuine remorse or was she going through the motions because she believed I had an expectation of her to act? It is relieving to hear from people who have a setting to be free to express themselves freely and without the need to feel pressured to conform to a standard or expectation.

So I feel you have every right to ask and I am confident people will help you. I feel we should all, BSs and WSs alike, be free from adhering to individual expectations to preserve the integrity of this space.

[This message edited by KingRat at 3:49 PM, December 13th (Friday)]

Fair enough, Ceph. I have a couple thoughts. First, your relationship with DS will always be yours. What that looked and felt like to you isn't for the rest of us to dissect. I also don't believe it is fair to MH especially but also others who had their own relationships with her, to use her to push an idea. That isn't a shot at you, Ceph, just a thought for us all. She undoubtedly touched so many of us, all in our own unique ways. That is something I believe the majority of us can agree on.

Next, I'm curious, what would it look like to you, to share a different perception, without invalidated your own views?