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There is nothing wrong with wanting and being monogamous. But choosing not to be doesn't make nonmonogamous relationships less bonded or entwined. Some people choose to make them so, but then again some mono people choose that as well. I believe that pair bonding is a choice like any other relationship choice, and relationship shape doesn't affect that unless you allow it to

Of course it does. And frankly, I don't see how discussion of monogamy and it's role in defining the betrayal of an illicit emotional attachment could be a threadjack. And I disagree that pair-bonding (as monogamists would understand it) is the same thing. It's not. For a monogamist, we're invested in one person and they've invested in us. We go to them for love, for sex, for comfort, for security, for companionship, for everything and vice versa. They are the other half which makes us whole, let no man (or woman) put asunder.

That's the pair bond as I see it. Not a trio bond or quartet bond because those things don't carry the same weight of responsibility to a singular chosen mate. And it's IN the shirking of that responsibility that we find the betrayal. When my WH told some tramp "I love you", he betrayed me because he promised me ALL of his romantic love, not some, not on certain days, not within defined parameters... all of it. When he shares the secrets of his heart with others, he betrays me. Those are MY secrets to be had, and none other before me. THAT is where the betrayal of the EA is found. At it's heart, it's your mate feeding someone else off your plate. Pair-bonded monogamists only have the one, so that plate is of primary importance. Hence the magnitude of the emotional betrayal.

I'm not saying that someone in a poly relationship couldn't possibly feel betrayed by an outside emotional attachment. But if the EA is a mysterious concept to you, it would probably be more understandable if you can imagine being truly, sublimely fulfilled with that one plate. When you get a feel for that, the betrayal is easier to see because you can see the losses.

There are quite a few insightful posts on this thread.

PSTI, I believe your friends spouse should have been more agreeable to your friendship and if she felt threatened, she should have created some boundaries she was comfortable. I had no problem with my wife continuing her male friendships from HS after we were married (we met in graduate school). She even told me a couple of them had crushes on her in HS, but she was never interested. I never felt threatened by these and other subsequent male friendships because I was invited to participate in the friendships and was confident in our marriage. However, the two males who had crushes for her did fade away after they were married. I always suspected their new wives recognized their husbands still had crushes on my wife and dissuaded them from any friendship!

I think you draw the line at whether you would be comfortable sharing your conversation/text/messages to your opposite sex friend with your spouse. If you're sharing anything with the opposite sex friend that would make your spouse feel uncomfortable, it should not be shared. If you have to hide the communication from your spouse, you've crossed a line.

I also believe that telling your spouse about conversations had with friends who happen to be members of the opposite sex gives your spouse the opportunity to express their concern about the nature of the conversation and set comfortable boundaries.

While I believe friendships are important, the sanctity of the marriage is paramount. We don't live with our friends, we live with our spouses. The hourly, daily, weekly, monthly, yearly... highs and lows are borne within the marriage. We can easily walk away from our friends but are morally and legally bound to our spouse and children add a higher level of commitment. Friends can provide a shoulder to cry on and advice based upon their specific experience but ultimately they walk away and go to their homes and marriages while we go to ours.

One final rambling from my dating days. I can honestly say that if I were complaining about my girlfriend to another girl, about 90% of the time I probably was seeking the attention of that girl and maybe had an inkling that it might possibly turn into more than just a friendship... maybe.

Thank you everyone for your patience in allowing me to vent a little.

I'm not saying that someone in a poly relationship couldn't possibly feel betrayed by an outside emotional attachment. But if the EA is a mysterious concept to you, it would probably be more understandable if you can imagine being truly, sublimely fulfilled with that one plate. When you get a feel for that, the betrayal is easier to see because you can see the losses.

ChamomileTea, I simply do not agree that the issue is as black and white as you think it is. I respect that you see it differently, but that does not make it so for everyone.

Even when I was sexually and romantically monogamous, I had very emotionally intimate friendships with people of both genders. The aforementioned incident with my friend? That was when I was still married to my ex-husband in a closed relationship. I still had the same views then on EAs that I do now.

So yes, I don't see it as being relevant to the specific discussion here. I don't believe that being nonmonogamous means that suddenly emotionally intimate connection means less to you, or that relationships are less entwined. Perhaps you see it so because you cannot imagine it being any other way. It's very difficult to see things from a perspective that you haven't experienced, because it's so easy to say that it must be a certain way, or that you would feel a certain way. But you never really know until you're there. We all experience things and process things differently, so making mass generalizations simply misses so much of the human experience.

I can see that if you personally were nonmonogamous, that it would loosen your connections to your partners. But I can comfortably say that is is no more of a fact than it is in the monogamous community- where people who choose less entwined relationships based on their own desires.

I'm sure you'll choose not to accept the point, but loving two children doesn't mean that your love for the second child is lesser, or means that you can't be as deeply connected because you already have one child in your heart. When you are polyamorous and wish to have two deeply entwined loving relationships, you'll find that the love and bonding in your heart multiplies the same way. My life experience is no less valid than yours.

Your husband promised you all his romantic love. Love is irrational and not measured. My husband also promises me all his romantic love, but because he isn't lying or deceiving me, him giving another partner romantic love takes none from me. Love is not pie. He can give me all his romantic love, and also give another partner all his love. I understand that may not be something that makes sense to you, and that's okay too. But it doesn't make me wrong and you right, it simply means that you don't understand where we're coming from.

I think you draw the line at whether you would be comfortable sharing your conversation/text/messages to your opposite sex friend with your spouse. If you're sharing anything with the opposite sex friend that would make your spouse feel uncomfortable, it should not be shared. If you have to hide the communication from your spouse, you've crossed a line.

I also believe that telling your spouse about conversations had with friends who happen to be members of the opposite sex gives your spouse the opportunity to express their concern about the nature of the conversation and set comfortable boundaries.

While I believe friendships are important, the sanctity of the marriage is paramount. We don't live with our friends, we live with our spouses. The hourly, daily, weekly, monthly, yearly... highs and lows are borne within the marriage. We can easily walk away from our friends but are morally and legally bound to our spouse and children add a higher level of commitment. Friends can provide a shoulder to cry on and advice based upon their specific experience but ultimately they walk away and go to their homes and marriages while we go to ours.

Wantafuture, I agree that one of the important distinctions between friendship and life partnership is that our spouses are those who we have chosen to build a life with. I've read some interesting conversations on amatonormativity, but I do tend to prioritize romantic relationships myself so I can't argue the other side of that one

I would not always share my conversations with my spouse simply because I believe my friends deserve privacy, too. My spouse has no need to hear all about everything if I tell him I was talking with so-and-so, but if the conversation was interesting and there was nothing private, I would share with him. There is a large difference between privacy and secrecy. I would not keep things secret from my spouse, but I surely do believe that especially when they involve other people, that some things are and should be private unless we have consent to disclose. I think that consent is THE most important factor in a relationship of any sort, so I would not be sharing my friends' confidences without their permission.

I agree with you 100% though that if you feel like you can't share something with your spouse because of their response, either you should deal with the issue if you think they are being unreasonable, or else you are doing something you shouldn't be.

I'm really not sure what boundaries my friend's wife would have wanted to set, since she was always invited to be included in our get togethers and there was nothing more than an emotionally intimate friendship. But I was terribly hurt- not at her, but at my friend's decision to go along with her request so tamely instead of sticking up for me. I would not have dropped a friend at my spouse's request without an extremely good reason to do so, because I don't believe in unilateral decisions like that. But like I said- I guess his friendship meant more to me than mine did to him. I've now been friends with the other two men for 25 years and they are still my closest platonic friends. Can't imagine life without them.

Your husband promised you all his romantic love. Love is irrational and not measured. My husband also promises me all his romantic love, but because he isn't lying or deceiving me, him giving another partner romantic love takes none from me. Love is not pie. He can give me all his romantic love, and also give another partner all his love.

So you wouldn't be upset if you found about your husband giving all his love to someone else if the only reason you found out is that you inadvertently discovered he was texting them hundreds of times every day, talking to them whenever you're not there? If the content of their communication was definitely romantic in nature you would not feel betrayed? Or would it all be fine because they had not met up or got physical?

My wife has a bunch of male friends from her high school days. I wasn't excited that she had them but I figured it was more my issue (insecurity) so I played it cool and accepted it. One guy I really couldn't stand. I could tell he had other intentions from the first time I met him back in 2001 but my wife "doubled down" and fought with me to keep this friendship saying similar things to what you've written. Fast forward to 15 years into our marriage and find him and her messaging each other on Facebook about how they wished that they had sex before they both got married and wanted to "fix" that mistake.

To me that's an emotional affair. You can play semantics of a cyber affair but this counts as emotional to me because she was sharing with him what her heart felt and sharing her unhappiness. Sharing feelings and thoughts with someone's other than me about topics that are germain to our marriage.

Opposite sex friendships to me are an insanely slippery slope. If you don't have clear boundaries, those line blur quickly. As I said I tried to be "cool" about male friendships because it was important to my wife and she assured me it would be fine. It hasn't been fine. In addition to the situation I mentioned above, I've caught her interacting inappropriately with two other male friends.

Shirley Glass has an excellent quiz that helps determine:

1. Do you confide more to your friend than to your partner about how your day went?

Yes No

2. Do you discuss negative feelings or intimate details about your marriage with your friend but not with your partner?

Yes No

3. Are you open with your partner about the extent of your involvement with your friend?

Yes No

4. Would you feel comfortable if your partner heard your conversation with your friend?

Yes No

5. Would you feel comfortable if your partner saw a videotape of your meetings?

Yes No

6. Are you aware of sexual tensions in this friendship?

Yes No

7. Do you and your friend touch differently when you're alone than in front of others?

Yes No

8. Are you in love with your friend?

Scoring Key:

You get one point each for yes to questions 1, 2, 6, 7, 8, and one point each for no to 3, 4, 5.

If you scored near 0, this is just a friendship.

If you scored 3 or more, you may not be "just friends."

If you scored 7-8, you are definitely involved in an emotional affair.

*This quiz by Shirley P. Glass was first printed in USA Today (June 20, 1988) in an article by Karen Peterson, "When platonic relationships get too close for comfort," p. 6D.

So you wouldn't be upset if you found about your husband giving all his love to someone else if the only reason you found out is that you inadvertently discovered he was texting them hundreds of times every day, talking to them whenever you're not there? If the content of their communication was definitely romantic in nature you would not feel betrayed? Or would it all be fine because they had not met up or got physical?

Carissima, I would be fine as long as my husband was open and honest about his connections. I clearly stated it's only acceptable because there is no lies or deception.

I would have no issues if my husband was texting someone frequently and talking to me if I wasn't there. Or if I was there for that matter, as long as it didn't interfere with our quality time. And love and romance are just fine with us as well.

What's not fine is lying and deception. Cheating is a violation of trust.

Hdybrh’s post with the quiz answers everyone’s question about what constitutes an EA. Basically, If the other “friendship” leaves the spouse feeling betrayed - it’s an EA. My husband would have scored a 7 on Shirley’s quiz. In a monogamous relationship, that is betrayal.

Yes, I think intent has a lot to do with it. I don't think my fch initially had any intention of cheating on me with the MOW. But, he thought I would be upset that he was talking to her about us. He was wrong, but that's where the problem started.

The problem for me was that he was telling her about problems he had with me that he was not talking to me about. He was sharing his feelings with her. He was not sharing his feelings with me. She validated his thoughts and feelings, which made him feel good. That led to him developing romantic feelings for her. What he was clueless about was that was all part of her plan.

I agree that you shouldn't share things with your spouse that a friend told you in confidence. However, you can tell you spouse that you talked to your friend. You were helping him with a problem, he needed a shoulder to lean on, etc.

An example with my fch after dday, we switched gyms and developed friendships with many people at the new gym. I didn't have a problem with any of the women my fch was friends with save one. I told him I was uncomfortable with how their relationship was developing. It felt off to me. He agreed to distance her. I found out later that she was known for going after married men. My spidey senses were spot on. My fch said he had no clue. That's when he decided he would be safer without female friends. That was his choice, not my suggestion.

Another example with me, we have next door neighbors who we have been friends with for 12 years now. I am more friends with them than my fch because he was deployed a lot while we lived there. The wife moved back to her home country a few years ago. I still visit the family a couple of times a year. I am friends with the man. I stay in their home without my fch. We go out together. We do things together. We talk. There is nothing romantic going on. No secrets. He always facetimes his wife when I'm there so we can chat. My fch is welcome to come when he can. We are like family. I can do that because I have good boundaries.

Basically, If the other “friendship” leaves the spouse feeling betrayed - it’s an EA.

I read the quiz and I can see the point it's making. I can't agree with your statement though, sassylee. Feelings can be so subjective. If I feel betrayed that my husband wants to watch TV at night, that doesn't mean he is doing anything wrong. I firmly believe that just because we have personal feelings of discomfort in general about our partner's actions that it does not necessarily mean anything is wrong or that they should stop. Sometimes that is an opportunity for personal growth.

Please don't misinterpret my words- I am not saying an affair is an opportunity for personal growth! Just that some situations that make us uncomfortable are. They give us an opportunity for deep self examination to see what the actual issue is rather than just the symptom/reaction. I think a lot of society is based around controlling our partner's behaviour to prevent us from having to deal with negative feelings and I think this is an unhealthy way to manage things.

I do think though that while I am seeking some more concrete answer as to what actually constitutes an EA, that there may not actually be a concrete definition. It seems like it's a fuzzy term in general that will vary from one relationship to the next based on their individual boundaries. I guess that makes sense since relationships aren't universal experiences, and reinforces my concept that people actually need to discuss with their partners where their own boundaries lie rather than assuming that everyone involved has the same boundaries since it's likely that they do not.

I guess the main similarity is like with PAs- it all comes back to lies and deception. If spouses were open and honest about these connections, does that mean that you wouldn't consider them EAs? Let's say for the sake of argument there were no sexual elements but it was an emotionally intimate connection in general.

What's not fine is lying and deception. Cheating is a violation of trust.

Exactly my point, in my example there was no open communication with you, everything behind your back, a betrayal of trust - by your own definition.

No physical contact but still cheating, characterised by lying and deceit. I would call it an EA you may choose to call it something else but the basic premise is the same.

So how frequently is too frequently? 2 or 3? 10? 20? 100? Long texts or short texts? How much time is too much time? 3 minute phone call in plain sight where every word has a hidden meaning or suggests a different agenda? 3 hour calls because you just happen to be away? All nighters or dayers whichever the case may be? When does time with another cross the line and take away from quality time? Shouldn't all time with your spouse and children be quality? Same with your friends? So what defines quality? When does an EA become PA? When they are touching (G)themselves and pretending like they are touching (G)someone else? When touching someone else IRL gives them "those" feelings one gets that suggest they want something more no matter how innocent or is it when they act on them? When they've never touched but spend every waking moment dreaming of when?

Or is it all about you and jealousy? Possession? Control? Isolation? Abuse?

When is it an addiction? How do you know that one time slip was truly a one time slip or an accidental discovery? Did it just teach them new ways to hide?

The thing about walls and windows is there has to be a house(structure) to have either. Because it is a structure there are doors so that you can let some in and keep some out but even with those you have let in - are they invited into your most intimate private space? Should they be? Does it become all about who is inside the house and who is outside the house? With a window whomever is inside can observe what is happening outside (no secrets) but once you invite them in there are places you can hide in plain sight (secrets and lies). You also have to ask did you even know they were invited in or did they come in while you were out(hidden "friendships")? Do they "visit" with you in residence? If you did know they were invited were you aware they took trips into your personal space? Are they playing footsie under the table? Or hide the salami in the kitchen? Is this friend playing house while they "help" you with your day to day chores?

Where do mental health issues fall in this spectrum. Since I know my husband and all of his family he cannot hide his past. He feels he has done nothing of value to impress me into keeping his plate of kibble full so he creates a past built on lies selected to impress what ever the current "friend" du jour needs to hear to cause her to react favorably and give her kibble away. Bigger ego trip if he can convince her husband how worthy he is when that husband has no idea about the amount of kibble being shifted out of his own private store. Then he has the opportunity to get double kibble which when all mixed together makes the plate look wholesome and nutritious.... and he can then serve it up to his family as a friendship.

It is how we each answer that determines where we each draw the line and it is in drawing the line that labels are applied then used against us whether by our spouses, their friends or society in general or worse yet your own family, friends and therapist because they are so damn good at what they do.

When is enough ever truly enough?

[This message edited by SimplyRed at 1:43 PM, December 21st (Saturday)]

I firmly believe that just because we have personal feelings of discomfort in general about our partner's actions that it does not necessarily mean anything is wrong or that they should stop. Sometimes that is an opportunity for personal growth.

Please don't misinterpret my words- I am not saying an affair is an opportunity for personal growth! Just that some situations that make us uncomfortable are. They give us an opportunity for deep self examination to see what the actual issue is rather than just the symptom/reaction. I think a lot of society is based around controlling our partner's behaviour to prevent us from having to deal with negative feelings and I think this is an unhealthy way to manage things.

So basically, you're NOT dropping some Esther Perlesque "opportunity for personal growth" nonsense on us... it's just that we're too controlling of our partners.

If spouses were open and honest about these connections, does that mean that you wouldn't consider them EAs?

Not necessarily. If my fch told me he had romantic feelings for his friend, I would have issue with that. I expect my partner to have romantic feelings for me. If he senses something is developing toward or with another person, he needs to remove himself from one of us.

Let's say for the sake of argument there were no sexual elements but it was an emotionally intimate connection in general.

I don't know what you mean by "emotionally intimate". Can you explain? Do you mean a close, warm connection and feeling toward another? Or, do you mean romantic, private?

I've never thought of my friendships being intimate. I associate intimacy with romance and sex. I don't feel intimate with a friend who I talk to about my hopes and dreams. I guess I might feel more intimate if I were sharing a traumatic event.

If spouses were open and honest about these connections, does that mean that you wouldn't consider them EAs?

What are we talking about here? Friendships or more? In my case if my husband had been open and honest about planning a life with and being in love with another woman, he wouldn’t then automatically get a free pass. “Oh, thanks for being honest, honey. All is well now!”

I feel like you’re trying oversimplify this, or something. You clearly don’t value monogamy the same way many of us do, and that’s fine. Honestly though, this whole thread just feels like an opportunity for you to try and poke holes in what others feel/think. I don’t think anybody will be able to change your attitude which seems to be that an EA is just some made up thing that people are getting too worked up about.

it's just that we're too controlling of our partners.

This is where we need to understand the difference between boundaries and rules or controlling behavior. Say I have a boundary. I don't want my H or BF exchanging phone numbers with any other woman. I'm perfectly within in my rights to set that as my boundary. My H or BF gets to choose whether or not he's ok with that boundary. If he isn't, we can go our separate ways. If he is, we can stay together.

Now, if he agrees to that boundary and I find he has another woman's phone number and has been privately talking to her, we have a problem. If he doesn't agree, and I say I'll let it go, but then get all crazy any time he talks to another woman, that's my problem. I always have the choice to walk away.

It's not controlling to say, "Hey, this is not ok with me," as long as I give the other person the option to stay or go.

Friendships do not equal EA. I never had an issue with my husband’s female friends until he found one that made him feel warm and tingly and made his dick hard. And what is important here is that because WS’s engaged in EA’s are not practicing polyamory in its true sense, they become monogamous with the EA partner. They create a living hell at home, neglecting their spouses and children. They become verbally, mentally and emotionally abusive while the loyal mate is left wondering what the hell is happening.

I thought my husband was suffering from a combination of lack of sleep (we had a major international highway being constructed next to our home and construction started at 7 am while he was just getting home from work at 3), depression and then drug addiction. All three explained his whackadoodle behaviour. Turns out I was wrong. He needed to make me the enemy to placate his guilt for falling in luuuurrrve with a coworker. In order to prove I was the enemy he had to start fights and create conflict while I was forced to act as a single working mom to 3 kids - one with severe life threatening issues at the time. But I was clueless to all his motivation.

But I also think in a monogamous marriage, it’s important that outside relationships don’t threatened the safety and strength of the family unit. It becomes more than being uncomfortable. I also bristle at the insinuation that we are controlling - far too many of us saw the danger but didn’t want to be “that wife”. We were manipulated into allowing the EA to continue by being made to feel like jealous insecure wives. That’s just cruel.

Normal, healthy friendships don’t involve manipulation and mind-fuckery to flourish. And let’s not ignore - many EA’s become PA’s while we wives are busy trying to be cool and understanding spouses. Then we’re left feeling stupid and at fault - which isn’t healthy either.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 11:10 AM, December 22nd (Sunday)]

I just wholeheartedly believe that intimate friendships and connections (like the aforementioned "work spouses") can be so beneficial to our health. People need more close friends and intimacy in their lives. A spouse can't be everything to you.

See, I agree that people need close friends and such. My Wh had a PA where he left me for ow and they had sex many times over a year and we were divorcing because of this. So definitely an “affair” in the stereotypical sense.

But now Wh is having an EA. It’s just as painful . He’s told OW he loves her (he said it was as a sister... I only saw part of the text) and he immediately apologized. He had also been drinking when he said it and uses that as an excuse.

This is a work friend and a lot of the texts they share are regarding both of their mental health problems and getting thru the day with mental illnesses. (Wh has bipolar 1 and anxiety, ow has depression and anxiety, and also newly diagnosed MS which has made her more depressed)

I consider this an EA because hes taking time away from ME to text this person. I don’t believe there is a sexual attraction because this woman was complaining that her husband was mad because with her MS she doesn’t want sex. I feel like my husband thinks his inappropriate texts are ok because sex won’t happen. This woman isn’t his type physically but we all know looks don’t have to be great to have an affair.

Flip side- i like that my Wh doesn’t fell “alone” in his mental health struggle. He says I can’t understand because I don’t have mental health problems, and he likes talking to ow because she understands his problems.

It’s an odd thing, these EAs. Boundaries are broken, inappropriate talk had, but without the sex it’s easier for ws to gaslight you and say “nothing’s happening! We haven’t had sex so my relationship is ok” even when it’s not ok with YOU

far too many of us saw the danger but didn’t want to be “that wife”. We were manipulated into allowing the EA to continue by being made to feel like jealous insecure wives. That’s just cruel.

Yes! Exactly. My WH made me feel crazy. Even asked me at one point about me not allowing him to talk to women, even though I talked to men (for work). The ONLY reason I had an issue is because the talk was flirty and inappropriate, and being hidden from me (note, not just one thing makes it an EA, so trying to boil it down to one thing is ridiculous). But yeah, I was made to feel like “that wife”, and I backed off. He went on to carry on EAs or cyber affairs or whatever people want to call it for 10 years, but at least I wasn’t “that wife”, right?

This is part of why some of this thread rubs me the wrong way. Not just one thing makes it an EA. It can’t be boiled down to one thing. Also, we are not talking simple friendships here. That’s not what people are uncomfortable or upset about. And we are sure as hell are not being controlling because we have a problem with what our spouses/partners are doing with other people.