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So, just as I was going down the route of contacting my lawyer, including getting an appointment this week. Tonight, something changed.

WS tells me she's breaking it off with dude. She's in tears. I've noticed something changed in her a couple days ago. So, I broke NC and told her that I'm willing to listen if she wants to talk and that I wasn't closing the door.

So, she tells me that she wants her family again including me. But she doesn't want to talk about dude with me. I said I don't need to know details, but I do want to know some things. She asked what, and I asked how far did things really go. She nodded when I asked "All the way" and ran up to her room in tears.

Now I know I'm in a precarious position right now. I do want to fix things. She agrees that we both need help to do it. She's concerned about the cost, and I said I can make it work for now. And that if it costs money to help us with the right person, then we'll find a way. I asked if she does have somebody to talk to about dude (as I'm figuring she's grieving). She does: her IC and her good running friend (who she's also a therapist).

Does anybody have any recommended readings or places for somebody in my position? I know we have to take things slow. We both have our own issues. Including depression/anxiety for her.

(FYI D day was in April 2020, A started in Feb 2020).

But she doesn't want to talk about dude with me

I have a recommendation...

She doesn’t get to set the terms of Reconciliation. Period.

I am assuming that is what you are considering here. If so, you need to start with that as rule number one right out the gate. You get to decide what you need, not her. After all, she has already fucking demonstrated that she is criminally reckless with your feelings and well-being. Think someone like that should be in the fucking drivers seat going forward? It’s ridiculous on its face.

I do want to fix things

And she knows that too. Which is why she feels comfortable setting terms like what you guys get to talk about.

The person that needs to be “fixing things” is her. And that starts with a willingness to do whatever it takes, talk about whatever you need to talk about. If she isn’t willing to do that then you are simply spinning your wheels.

I said I don't need to know details

You simply cannot know that yet. You don’t think you need details now because you are desperately wanting to “fix” things But you are not even out of the starting gate yet. You don’t have any idea where your head is going to go in the coming days weeks and months. How do I know that? Look at my start date. It’s a long road man, with a lot of twist and turns yet to come.

I'm in a precarious position

Precarious left the party a long while ago. You aren’t teetering on the precipice of loosing your relationship... it’s been gone for a while. She just hadn’t bothered to do you the simple fucking courtesy of informing you of that fact. The only precarious position you are in is that of potentially reengaging with an individual who is demonstrably dangerous to you.

Listen, I’m all for R, I’m ten years into it myself. But if that is what you are looking for, make sure you go into it cautiously, with eyes wide open, in full possession of the necessary information and firmly in the drivers seat.

HT

Last September 2019, my WH was desperate to R. I agreed to hear him out. I had no idea about the A and WH was only going to break up with AP if things looked ok with me.

So he lied and lied and lied. To this day, I don’t have all the details but my gut tells me it’s worse than anything I have found or could even imagine.

Set very strict NC boundaries now, before proceeding further.

I did everything wrong last year and it’s coming back to haunt me now.

Geek42:

You’ve received good advice. Has she read” How To Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair” by McDonald. It’s a short read that packs a lot of good information.

[This message edited by fareast at 1:27 PM, June 27th (Saturday)]

WS tells me she's breaking it off with dude. She's in tears. I've noticed something changed in her a couple days ago. So, I broke NC and told her that I'm willing to listen if she wants to talk and that I wasn't closing the door.

So, she tells me that she wants her family again including me. But she doesn't want to talk about dude with me. I said I don't need to know details, but I do want to know some things. She asked what, and I asked how far did things really go. She nodded when I asked "All the way" and ran up to her room in tears.

You seem like wanting to rugsweep the whole thing and "move on", listen, this is NOT that simple, ask her what happened, why the change of heart, as a matter of fact what we recommend is that she writes a complete and detailed timeline of the A, plus you don't even know if they're still in contact (most likely), you're trying to jump into R way too soon and blindfolded, this will most likely backfire if you don't address it properly, she's "grieving" her boyfriend and you seem way too understanding and accommodating", you're simply plan B at best, you don't even know if OM could just snap his fingers tomorrow and she could just run to him and leave you high and dry once again.

I would strongly suggest yo put R on hold, talk is cheap, here's a few of the basics:

1) Demand she gets tested for STDs (you should too), full panel, yes she's been playing russian roulette with your health. Do not have sex with her until you see the results.

2) Demand she sends an NC FOREVER text to OM right in front of you and without warning, short and to the point (no sweet goodbyes), remember you said "she's breaking it off with OM" not that she already did. Make sure she knows she needs to tell you if OM tries to contact her again in the future.

3) Ask her to apologize to the entire family for her huge betrayal.

4) Tell her to write a complete timeline of the A, it makes her face what she did and helps with remorse.

5) Keep the appointment with lawyer and ask him about a postnup in your favor and demand she signs it in case she cheats again.

6) She needs to offer FULL on demand access to her phone and all her electronic devices and passwords FOREVER, no questions asked.

If she refuses to do any of the previous suggestions, simply file for D and don't look back, remember that recovering from infidelity takes between 2-5 years under the "best" of circumstances with a fully remorseful WS doing all the necessary work, your WW's sudden change of heart doesn't make her an automatic good candidate for R, she's not even close to being one by a very long shot, at least for now.

Others will chime in with more advice, make her face some real consequences of her huge betrayal, if you don't she will think she can always get away with it and you will just take her back.

She doesn't want to talk about "the dude" because he dumped her and she's grieving. At least, that's how it seems to me. She's protecting him/them. I am glad she's in IC because this will be a bumpy road.

I posted this in one of your previous threads:

The next thing you need to do is to gird yourself for a potential future comeback from your WW. If her AP decides to drop her for whatever reason, guess who she would be running to?

See how predictable WS are?

So, I broke NC and told her that I'm willing to listen if she wants to talk and that I wasn't closing the door.

Gently now, I know this is what you have been hoping for, and you broke NC to try and 'win' her back, but:

But she doesn't want to talk about dude with me.

This is a huge red flag. She is still in guilt mode, and is not remorseful. If she were really remorseful, she would be more than willing to answer all your questions, not matter how hard they are, and not matter how many times you ask the same question.

It is still all about her, and not about anyone else.

She is throwing a pity party for herself, with dramatics like:

and ran up to her room in tears.

This will distract you from your own needs and self, as you will be in your KISA mode, to try and protect and fix her. She is counting on this, so that she has her Plan B firmly secured.

The next thing she will probably say to you is:

- that she made a 'mistake', and that she had always loved you

- never intended to leave you

- you are the best thing in her life

- it was just sex

- promises to 'do anything' to fix the M, but will not answer your questions, or do anything to help you heal.

She will minimise things, and blame you for her getting into an affair.

Keep doing the 180. Until she reaches the remorse stage, everything that comes out of the WS mouth is just sounds, with no meaning. The actions must be there.

She is still not 'safe' for you or your family until the remorse sets in, and it will not set in if you break the 180band pander to her, as she will manipulate the heck out of you.

Stay focused on getting out of infidelity. R or D is not the target to aim for. You can still R, but if your WS still stays in the wayward thinking mode, you will remain in limbo, as she can start her A up again (may not be with the same AP, but some other charmer).

The first thing is she's still in the affair, I'd tell her to come back when it's over or to end it in front of me.

Secondly, unless you rugsweep you will definitely need to discuss the AP with her, you will need to discuss any aspect of her cheating you want with her whether it makes her uncomfortable or not. If she's not willing to do this then she's not a candidate for R.

This was from another posting in another discussion line.

she doesn't want to be married if I'm controlling who she can be friends with

And then this from this discussion.

But she doesn't want to talk about dude with me.

Yes, she is trying to control the outcome, her image, etc, etc, etc. This is not a picture of "remorse".

If you reconcile, you will go through Hell. It is only worth going through if your spouse is truly remorseful.

This will take YEARS to work through.

Neither of you can control the outcome, the outcome can only be controlled by BOTH of you working together.

That means that the wayward has to own up to their behavior, and do what must be done to change, and give the betrayed spouse what they need to develop trust again.

To be almost excruciatingly explanatory, my FWS lied to me about the affair in her confession, she told me, her IC, and our MC, a detailed and yet completely fabricated story about the affair. She told us she had fucked the guy, she told us she had oral sex with the guy, she told us where she had fucked him, she told us how many times she had fucked him, she told us when she fucked him, she told us where I was when she did it.

It was all false, every single word of the story was false (well, except that fact that she fucked someone else). I have a tremendous memory. I picked up on discrepancies, one in particular, where she said I was somewhere that I wasn't (it was 9 years before the confession, but I knew that there was no way I was where she said I was), she swore up and down that she told the truth, that I was just "can't to handle the truth".

This was an affair, confessed to, terrible to listen to, awful to got to counseling over (me sitting in the counselor's office, with my wife and the counselor and my wife telling me about fucking someone else...yeah, that was a great afternoon). It wasn't real though. The mind of the wayward was behaving the same way, controlling, manipulating, "managing" the betrayed spouse and their emotions, taking away their agency by betraying them yet again in a different manner, etc.

WHEN AND IF THAT CHANGES, then the wayward allows the betrayed to know the truth of their relationship and decide for themselves if they can live with it, or without it, but to have the truth to base that decision on. Until that happens, the relationship is still circling the drain.

It took my FWS 6 months of MC, during which she told a huge number of additional lies, to finally "get with the program" and realize she was going to have to tell the truth to see if she could actually have a real relationship with anyone, even a real counseling relationship, even with herself. Yes, she had gone to counseling in the past, and she lied to every counselor she ever saw. We had even gone to MC the year of the affair, and she lied about all the issues we were having then.

We had a good MC, who focused on my FWS and her story of her life, but I will never know for sure if she actually thought my FWS was lying to us all, because my FWS was an excellent liar, but the MC was an excellent counselor, and she may have seen that my FWS was lying but knew that no good could come of her confronting it, that my FWS had to recognize it on her own and manage to breakthrough emotionally to allow me to really make a decision based on the reality, not the fantasy version of our lives together.

Here’s my two cents and a lesson learned the hard way.

You either get your power back in your marriage or you will never survive this. If there are no consequences your wife could cheat again. Ask me how I know.

At dday2 I finally stood up to my H. I finally stopped being a doormat.

And I suggest that she EARN her way back to your marriage. Do not make it easy on her by just waving your magic wand and sweeping it under the carpet. If she’s not up to the task then your marriage is doomed anyway.

Here are the reconciliation red flags 🚩

She blames you for her choice to cheat

She refuses to honestly answer ALL questions

She refuses counseling for herself and/or marriage

She refuses to be completely transparent with all social media and electronic devices

She refuses to end the affair in front of you

She refuses to delete and/or block ALL ways for OM to contact her

No offense but it sounds to me that she may be crying and miserable b/c her affair ended. I watched that scenario play out in front of me too. Complete and utter disrespect. Don’t know how I tolerated it but at the time I thought we were reconciling. Turns out the affair resumed and he was planning to D me.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 5:08 AM, June 15th (Monday)]

Well, I sent her a few things I want at this stage. One, she gets her car back from dude. He's borrowed it now for a couple months during covid. 2. I want to see the message to dude saying it's over. 3. I want a timeline with dude. Places, when things changed from emotional to physical. And how they communicated. I also reserved the option to ask follow up questions.

I did tell her that I won't hold the details against her. She already told me they had sex.

Finally, I told her to continue IC and that we need help with MC to do this right. We are still in separate rooms. And I think this will continue for a while longer. I'm also keeping my call with the lawyer this Wednesday. Because you are all right. This may still be our end.

I will say one thing. I'm in a better emotional state than I was before. I think the other me would have definitely rugswept completely. I'm not doing that. I do want some details or it will eat at me for ever and that's not healthy for me.

I also reserved the option to ask follow up questions.

I did tell her that I won't hold the details against her. She already told me they had sex.

Never, ever,never tell a cheating spouse what their disclosures will or won't do to you. You have no idea how you will react to additional unknowns. You have a right to react and evaluate any disclosed betrayal or manipulation. Until enough time has passed to show whether the cheating spouse is genuine in their remorse, empathy, and contrition, all bets are off for promises as to how you will react or how it will affect you.

One of the most important reasons that details can be critical is that it offers opportunity for the cheater to either continue to lie and manipulate, or to demonstrate a willingness to do what you need even though is is painful to do so.

Don't promise a cheater anything until they earn the right back for such things. See that lawyer. She is trying to minimize her losses at this point. This is not a deep new awakening. This is plan B reactive measures.

You said it yourself:

No Contact, and I want full disclosure.......I'm willing to work through it, if she will commit. And that commit is shown by NC and disclosure. Otherwise, it's time to say our goodbyes.

Full disclosure means anything you need on any topic at any time for any reason: she freely gives to you with full honesty and humility whatever you need. This is not a marriage problem. At this point, there is no M to fix. You cannot fix this M until she fixes her broken self and you get a deeper comfort level over not having to fix the M.

[This message edited by DIFM at 5:55 AM, June 15th, 2020 (Monday)]

WS tells me she's breaking it off with dude. She's in tears.

Those tears are for her. Either OM broke it off with her or she is breaking it off with him under duress - she does not want to lose the "comforts" of her M (her home, financial stability) - in other words, seems like you are Plan B.

Be careful, Geek; IMHO, this came on too damn sudden.

I'm sure something happened between them. Not sure what. I just told her that to get started on us, I need those things first. I think she needs time to figure herself out first.

So, I'm not stopping what I already started. Lawyer, separation, etc. I can use the time to shore up my own life, before letting this happen with others. I don't want to repeat history because of her, or because of me.

Yup. I believe I am plan b. So, business as usual. Some red flags are still there.

Welcome, Geek 42, to the place you never wanted to find.

You are getting excellent advice. The collective wisdom here is immense. I wanted to post a list of qualities that underscore what a remorseful spouse looks like. It is from a book that is widely recommended on this site:

Remorseful WS:

• are non defensive

• examine their motives for their affairs, without blaming their spouses

• accept their roles as healers to their wounded partners

• do not resist breaking off all contact with the affair partner

• show genuine contrition and remorse for what they have done

• make amends and apologize to loved ones

• apologize often, especially the first two years

• listen with patience and validate their spouses’ pain

• allow their spouses a lot of room to express their feelings

• respect the betrayed spouse’s timetable for recovering

• seek to assure spouses of their love and commitment to fidelity

• keep no secrets....no dishonesty ever

• do not maintain close ties with those who condoned the affair

• are willing to be extremely accountable for their time and activities

• frequently check in with spouses as to how they are doing

• are aware of and anticipate triggers of the affair

• are willing to get rid of hurtful reminders of the affair

• don’t minimize the damage the affair had on the children

*commit themselves to a long-term plan for recovery, honesty, and Internal (Spiritual) growth

Good to see your latest posts. I read the first in the thread and said to myself “he’s gonna PICK ME DANCE into being her PLAN B”

Let HER do the fighting for this relationship man! Stop guiding her. Do you really want a wife you have to tell how to love you? Stop trying to control her.

Yes, go to the lawyer. Go to your IC. Live your life. If she truly thinks you are the love of your life, she will fight for you. She will make you feel special and safe. Right now she thinks she’s ALL THAT and you should be begging for her scraps.

Only thing I would tell her right now is: “I won’t share my wife and I will never be with a partner who thinks she loves and is pining for another man. If you want me, you need to figure out how to rebuild what you destroyed. You need to document the plan and review it with me. You’ve broken my heart, I won’t let you break it again.”

Stop telling her what she needs to do. Don’t tell her you won’t hold things against her. If she wants you, loves you, desires you, she will do those things unprompted.

Keep moving down the path of getting out. Let her decide if she will follow you.

I promise you, if you hand hold her, you will always wonder if she had it in her to do it herself. That will make true happiness impossible.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 9:58 AM, June 15th (Monday)]

Sorry. I fixed typos in my post above.

Geek,

I guess we are all in shock that you are continuing to even engage her in conversation while another man has her car and she is running the show.

In case you have not notice, a good number of veteran folks have all basically said the exact same thing in different words telling you this "shock" is nothing but her trying to stall for time. She hasn't offered anything you need and basically has told you that you are not allowed to ask. And you're considering accepting that????

Lets talk about the therapists. Has either one told her there is no reason to be in therapy while she is still having an affair??? If not, why????

And as far as IC is concerned, that is a waste of time now also. First, the therapist also has apparently not told her she cannot have her boyfriend and you, and why on earth do you thing she is telling you the truth about the sessions. She can easily sign a legal document authorizing you to be informed of what is discussed and said with her therapist. my guess is she will see you on the moon before she signs that document.

The others have said it better than me probably but all you are doing is setting yourself up for more crap. And with a homeless moron yet to boot.

You need to file for divorce. It does NOT occur immediately and you can stop it any time you want to. You need to tell her YOUR requirement to attempt R with NO GUARANTEES, and you need to verify that NC is maintained, and if they work together you are not going to do that without a polygraph.

In the animal kingdom, and we are animals, there is no such thing as equals. Right now, you are being led around by a dominant partner who refuses to agree to anything that any book you can read recommends.

If you continue with what you are doing, either the smart folks who have responded before me are all crazy or you are in for MISERY.

Time to get ANGRY and act accordingly. Until she believes that her phony offer is not going to be accepted as such you are spinning your wheels.

Well, I sent her a few things I want at this stage. One, she gets her car back from dude. He's borrowed it now for a couple months during covid.

What !!! oh brother are you effing kidding me ? I don't know how you can be this passive, I'm sure she's got a spare key (doesn't matter), man up and go with her right now and get the damn car, if she hesitates for a single second, that's all you need to know.

I'm sure something happened between them. Not sure what. I just told her that to get started on us, I need those things first. I think she needs time to figure herself out first.

Again why in the world are you even allowing her this time, "time to figure out herself" is time to keep dating OM, she's still in the driver's seat and you are allowing it, just file for D, she will have months if not years to try to convince you (with verifiable actions) to stop it, I wouldn't take her back but it's your life and of course your decision.