SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

sisoon

I added to the "My Story" section a while back - not sure if it shows up or not. But I see it when I view my profile.

When I first put in down in words, I was actually tearing up. Now? reading it makes my blood boil.

And this is without FWW doing ANYTHING wrong at the moment - just the memories and trying to deal with that little buzzing fly in my head.

I know it will come and go, but hopefully it passes soon for this cycle - this feeling is the worst it has been in 10 years.

Read your profile. It looks like years of some variation of rug-sweeping are coming back to haunt you. (Rug-sweeping may be the wrong term, but it's the best I can do ATM.)

You've been abused and traumatized. What have you done to heal?

I say all the above because your profile seems to be about her, on one hand, and your white-knuckling through it, on the other.

Life can be good, even after being betrayed, but you're the only one who can make it good.

Now might be a good time to find a good therapist to help you work through whatever is going on for you. You really deserve to treat yourself better than you've been doing.

It seems to me, and maybe I don’t have full information, is that you both just rug swept what she did, and are co-existing today. Yes she may be more intimate, but you are just assuming why that is as I don’t see where you have really discussed it.

You haven’t talked about the pain she caused you by her actions. And you don’t talk about whether or not she is actually safe to you and your heart now.

If that is true, I think you need to recommend a change to how you both operate. Yes you seem to care that she see you as a strong individual. But to me, that means you confront this issues head on and not stay scared of what may happen if you do.

I’d wan to know exactly why she is here and if it’s because the man she truly wanted got away. And then I’d have to decide if that is the case, if I could stay knowing that.

To me, that starts with sitting her down and telling her honestly what you need to know in order to remain in the relationship.

Yes it may be because she realized that life with the AP was not what her brain told her it was going to be. Maybe it is that she realized you were the much better man. But I would need, at the very least, her to greatly acknowledge what her struggles with him did to you. To care about that. To feel pain herself about how you were mistreated by her.

If she can convey that and be willing to discuss it, repeatedly over time. Then I think it would be easier to find peace if it were me.

It doesn’t have to be more than something you discuss weekly and later monthly. It doesn’t have to be the major part of your day to day lives. But that type of openness about what occurred in the past has to exist. It has to be something you work together. Or else the relationship really isn’t going to work for either of you.

People do not realize the massive benefit of open and honest expression of our most inner thoughts and feelings. This is why people eschew therapy or journal writing. But the reality is that acknowledging and giving voice to our most vulnerable feelings first gets them out of the darkness, making us feel lighter, and it secondly forces us to say, "So now what?" and sort of demands we take action.

In my view, when a couple is initially dealing with infidelity, one or both are suddenly confronted with very painful and traumatic feelings of loss, shame, failure, and betrayal. Two partners willing to keep the conversation flowing is unlikely since the WS, by virtue of their choice to cheat, has already shown a difficulty with sharing the vulnerable parts of themselves. They most likely struggle with people pleasing or conflict avoidance, so communicating openly is tops on the list of difficult actions. Even worse, the WS may attack the BS for attempting to push these difficult, excrutiatingly painful conversations over and over with no end in sight. Mine sure did. And then the BS is shamed into silence. Rug sweeping is initiated.

LostOpportunities, you can heal, but you are going to need to force any and all feelings about this back onto the table. By allowing words and thoughts to go unshared, you are allowing the same from her. And when a WS is allowed to stay silent on all the painful conversations, a BS feels 100% unsafe as they imagine every thought, idea, desire, and regret that a WS is not sharing, is hiding. Like a snowball, this belief about secrets rolls further and faster until the BS is certain that the magnitude of what the WS is not revealing (huge snowball of stuff, per the BS's imagination) means their WS can never, ever be trusted again. The relationship becomes an empty shell of insecurity and doubt.

Put the conversations back on the table. Every feeling is now, it doesn't matter if the cause of the feeling is years ago. Every conversation is important. Once everything is shared, you can begin to look for the reactions from her, the responses and changes that you need to see to rebuild trust. But how can she show you better responses (or learn better habits to help you heal and show you love) if she's not facing the truth in your heart.

Don't put it out there to demand it be fixed. For now, put it out there because your feelings matter and need to be shared. Show her. Tell her. Make her listen now. It's not too late.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 7:40 AM, June 21st (Sunday)]

You know, I stand by what I said - eventually, I will have to just get over this. But only after I have trust in the situation/person again - which FWW has the most responsibility to provide.

And here I think I can pinpoint something in me - I can't say I love or hate FWW. I can't say she is good or bad. All I know is that while I can pretend things are normal, I just don't trust.

The last few replies on this thread have opened up some new aspects and provided some clarity.

Absolutely - I have rug swept - and I did it knowingly because I was not in a position to drastically change my condition. I knew it as it was happening, taking a gamble (what I have seen referred to as hopium) that things would change.

In one sense, I was correct, things HAVE changed, but now my mind is questioning the WHY because I don't trust.

Regarding discussing things openly with FWW - I am tempted to say "when hell freezes over".

Something my father taught me long ago (I realize how cliche this is...I reference my parents quite a bit ) - Any person WILL make mistakes...sometimes tragic ones. But that person should have the robustness and resilience to withstand the burden of those mistakes. To stand up and try to make amends commensurate to their abilities, not just apologize. A great irony of humanity is that some of the worst offenses are committed by people who don't have the strength to face what they did when all the lies are stripped away. To some degree, that weakness is a large part of why they committed the offense(s) in the first place.

My FWW absolutely wilts when faced with self analysis. I can see the short circuit happening - literal twitching and blinking, the look of horror...and then the defense mechanisms kick in and it was all my fault. She just can't seem to fathom that it is not the end of the world to screw up - that all she needs to do is try to make up for it - this is good for her as much as it is for the victim, though the victim should be the focus. This is absolutely from her FOO. FWW, MIL, and BIL are the same - they do terrible things and can never seem to analyze and apologize...even though sometimes it is clear they feel bad.

If I could share my feelings with FWW, I don't think I would have sought out the forum to vent . Discussing with FWW? There be dragons! How pathetic of me, I know.

Stevesn

It seems to me, and maybe I don’t have full information, is that you both just rug swept what she did, and are co-existing today. Yes she may be more intimate, but you are just assuming why that is as I don’t see where you have really discussed it.

She says that I have given her a good life and she needs to learn to be grateful and not always look at the negative (what she doesn't have).

I say that "seeing the positive" is surely what we should all do, but there is that nagging doubt that she is saying that out of fear I will throw her out. That accursed devil on my shoulder continues to whisper in my ear "She's not sorry! She doesn't really appreciate you. She just ran out of options!"

To one degree or another, what she says and what the devil on my shoulder says are both true.

I know that self preservation is part of the wayward psyche - the trick...and where I am lost - is figuring out whether it is a healthy self preservation that gives me a good partner or a potentially toxic one that can bury me again.

[This message edited by LostOpportunities20 at 12:27 PM, June 21st (Sunday)]

Ahhhh, I see. I see exactly what you mean and understand it well as it is a very, very common scenario. I cannot tell you how many "reconciliations," if that's what you want to call them, end up in this same place. The WS stops IC, stops wanting to hear about it (if they ever did), and the BS stops posting here. What happens to them? I often wonder.

Can I ask, LostOpportunities, do you have any affection or warmth between you? Or is it a partnership type relationship, very functional and surface?

So you are dying on the inside because you can't share.

And you can't share because she won't own anything.

She'll most likely just attack you as being to blame.

But you are unwilling to walk away to stand up for yourself due to the practical considerations.

Do you have strong boundaries with her through detachment and 180? Do you tell her No and deny her things she wants? Or does that feel like too strong a stand, like you'd be pushing her buttons? Do you fear her reactions, her anger? Do you fear she will leave if you stand up for yourself at all?

She says that I have given her a good life and she needs to learn to be grateful and not always look at the negative (what she doesn't have).

Is she criticizing her own perfectionism and judgement or your lack of providing? It sounds pretty cold. It stung me just to read it.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 1:15 PM, June 21st (Sunday)]

OwningItNow

Is she criticizing her own perfectionism and judgement or your lack of providing? It sounds pretty cold. It stung me just to read it.

I don't think she knows...and as such I don't really know. But it is probably some of both.

There are times where she really sits there and says..."I can't believe I took that for granted". There are other times where it seems to me she is content to settle for less than what she wanted before - like a transactional thing.

OwningItNow

Can I ask, LostOpportunities, do you have any affection or warmth between you? Or is it a partnership type relationship, very functional and surface?

It is warm when I can squash the "devil on my shoulder". At this point, any coldness in our relationship (other than the occasional downward spiral by FWW, and other than just normal emotions, disputes, etc...) is almost always from my side.

Do you have strong boundaries with her through detachment and 180? Do you tell her No and deny her things she wants? Or does that feel like too strong a stand, like you'd be pushing her buttons? Do you fear her reactions, her anger? Do you fear she will leave if you stand up for yourself at all?

I do have boundaries I have enforced over the last 10 years - I am far more likely to simply detach and walk away now when I feel she is being self absorbed about our relationship. Where in the first 10 years of our marriage I gave her whatever she wanted, now I'll just flat out say "No" and won't budge if I don't like the situation, unless she gives me a good reason. So I feel I have finally developed a healthy balance between giving in and saying "No".

When she goes off the deep end, I DO feel her anger like a sickness spreading through me - but the detachment and 180 have helped me to step out of those situations and let the storm blow over before I engage again. Though having typed that - isn't that avoidance? So complicated...

As far as her leaving...I think I wouldn't care...my self worth is no longer tied up in her view of me...it would hurt...but I am no longer intimidated by the prospect. What happens, happens. I would most likely be alone (in my specific context, for various reasons I would prefer not to discuss, it is too late to start over), but I think I would be perfectly happy with that if it came to it. I did not need external validation before I married her, and I will be fine if the relationship were to end today.

So MY primary reasons for not taking initiative to leave:

--financial self preservation

--there are enough good memories that I question whether I am now over blowing things considering so much time has passed since the affairs and she really seems to have tried

--further damage to already damaged kids

--when FWW and I share loving moments I think "this is nice...I can put up with quite a bit if I can get some of this physical/emotional candy regularly".

I don't know if any of these are "healthy" reasons, but they are some of my reasons.

Why can't I get this buzzing out of my head!!!!!

[This message edited by LostOpportunities20 at 2:02 PM, June 21st (Sunday)]

You don't have to justify your reasons for staying. I share some of the same reasons as you do.

When she goes off the deep end, I DO feel her anger like a sickness spreading through me - but the detachment and 180 have helped me to step out of those situations and let the storm blow over before I engage again. Though having typed that - isn't that avoidance? So complicated...

I think this is a good question to ask yourself. Detaching is tricky business because it can feel like avoidance if you don't remind yourself that removing emotion from our reactions is often extremely healthy. Our emotions are a choice, not something that cannot be controlled. That's part of being an adult. If she is reacting or overreacting or pushing your emotional buttons, you are detaching in maturity and thoughtfulness. It's a good thing. We are not puppets on a string. At work I often have to say, "I understand your situation, but this was your decision, not mine. Your emergency is not my emergency." If she's upset, it does NOT mean you need to hop to and address it.

I am packing for a trip so don't have much time, but I do think it is great you are here, LostOpportunity. You have a new opportunity to work through these things that won't stop buzzing.

I think the question is whether or not you are even able to keep all of this inside anymore. It seems you cannot, hence the buzzing. Trauma is like that. It has it's own agenda. But maybe with SI's help you can do this at a pace and in a manner that makes you feel comfortable. That's what is important for all of us, finding our way to our peace. I think you'll do that here.

Lost, your explanation for staying in the M I found interesting. Mostly because, any relationship is not perfect, it has good and bad. If the good outweighs the bad and you can focus on the good, I would suggest the relationship is good. Infidelity complicates things because of the betrayal aspect/lack of trust. And it seems that is your biggest issue right now. It is understandable.

And you don't have to justify staying in your M to anyone but yourself. If it works for you, that is all that really matters.

Hoping to make my point a different way....

Lost,

That buzzing in your head is you fighting with yourself.

I urge you to find a good therapist to help you align your thoughts, feelings, and actions.

You've made some choices others would not have made - but you're not alone. Others are right where you are. Frankly, to be explicit, I hope I would not have made the same choices. At the same time, I realize you're the only one who could make choices for you, and I honor that.

Look, your choices are not wrong, even if some of us may think they are. I share my difference of opinion with the thought only because I also think you're free to ignore it.

You're entitled to find peace after making your choices. You really are entitled not to adopt the opinions of folks who disagree with you. You're even entitled to the respect of folks who disagree with you.

But I think you've got voices in your head that are fighting your decisions about your W and your M. A good therapist will help you choose which voices to shut down and will help you actually shut them down.

Go for it, bro.

[This message edited by sisoon at 12:04 PM, June 22nd (Monday)]

I was just catching up on your thread. And, I am glad that it looks like you are starting to look at all that is underneath your "endless loop".

You know, if this was my husband, I would wish we could just lie down together and he could tell me about it. So often we think that things have to be confrontational or they are our load to bear on our own. But, when we are vulnerable with each other we can say "hey I keep having these feelings, I can't seem to resolve them...maybe if we could talk it over either it will just help me to vent or we will be able to come at this from a different angle".

Sometimes I can't fix what he is feeling, but I can listen, sometimes that helps him untangle it for himself. Sometimes my willingness to do that is enough to help him to feel better. Sometimes we just come to the conclusion he will need more time with something, or there might be something I can do over a longer term that might resolve it. Take a chance, talk to her about it. You might find that worthwhile and you might find yourself doing it more moving forward so long as she is soft with you and not defensive. Do you think she is often defensive and that has shut you down from trying to have that conversation? What holds you back from having it if not?

Why can't I get this buzzing out of my head!!!!!

Go to an ENT doctor and get your hearing checked. It is probably tinnitus.

Sorry - I've been away for a bit - just various things to take care of.

But I had to respond to this

Go to an ENT doctor and get your hearing checked. It is probably tinnitus.

Lol - ah if only it was an actual physiological thing. These mental things are so difficult to pin down - but venting here and getting advice/critique and reading other people's stories has been helping me down from the proverbial ledge.

On the other hand, now that you've mentioned tinnitus, Westway, now I'm paranoid that I have a light ringing in my ears. Thanks for adding to the paranoia!!!! j/k

I have not read the entire thread yet. But this feeling you describe, that your wife valued the AP more than you and that, essentially, it is only because of consequences and her doing a cost/benefit analysis that she remains with you, is pretty much how I would feel, too.

I had no opportunity to attempt reconciliation as my XW was insistent on divorce. I am now grateful that I was never faced with the decision.

I believe I know myself fairly well. I am a forgiving person in just about any area. But, for some reason that I am not sure about, I think this particular offense, banging another man is probably beyond my ability to forgive.

And, one of the reasons is probably what I mentioned. I would know with certainty that I am not my wife's first choice. That would bother me so much that I would be miserable. Best for me to have moved on, graciously.

I was not about to compete with some other guy for my XW. Objectively( maybe) I believe I am more accomplished, a nicer person, better looking and blahs, blahs. But, I will be damned if I stoop to the level of trying to convince my XW of this. If she does not feel this way, so be it.

I might add that she and her AP were at each others' throats relatively soon after having full access to each other after we separated. She made one overture about reconciling. I did not shoot her down but simply acted like I did not hear her. That allowed her to maintain some dignity, I guess.

The way I view it, I would need to use mental gymnastics to convince myself I was not Plan B. I simply could not do it.

All of the traits that my STBXWW likes in a man are not traits that I can achieve. So I don't dwell on it. I think as a guy you just have to work at being the best version of yourself that you can be. I think if you do that, some woman is bound to notice and like what she sees.

So it sounds like you were a rebound relationship that turned into a marriage. Then your WW because she never dealt with her feelings of inadequacy after being dumped, decided to cheat with the first guy that she noticed paying attention to her. Then you, after being cheated on, suppressed the healing process possibly out of fear of losing her and turning your life further upside-down and rug-swept her actions. And now the hens are back in your head and are attempting roost and you're philosophizing and asking for opinions to explain it away so you can justify rug sweeping the whole thing again.

"I'll always get triggered regardless of trust and reconciliation, I think, until I just get over it..."

Just getting over it was what you tried last time; it doesn't work. You really need to walk out of the weeds that you're trying to hide in and simply face the truth that your WW was and potentially still is, just like you, screwed up from being dumped years ago.

When you don't tackle issues head on and immediately, they sit in the back of your mind and continue to make appearances throughout your life.

You should allow yourself to evaluate your relationship again; it sounds like you may be doing that already. Look at all of your options including divorce. Don't pre-select a path like you did last time. Open your mind, look seriously at your options, and go through each one mentally and on paper. Educate yourself on divorce, post-nuptial agreements, child support, and anything else that might be involved with the various choices you've assembled in front of you. Trace the steps and potential outcomes of each option you have; good and bad of each one. Keep your mind open to all options no matter how they may affect you or others, or what your bias's are toward them.

Then armed with your choices and the knowledge of the outcomes, decide which one will give you the most happiness and freedom. Do you like life as it is? Are you happy? You have a lot of life ahead of you. You should really consider your quality of life as it is and decide if you want more than what you have. It may be that you have everything you want but your thread here indicates otherwise.

Make sure you do yourself the favor of not rug-sweeping your problems again. Deal with them however you need to and then put your efforts into whatever choices you make going forward. This life is about you. You're worth having a happy and fun life with a loving partner that you can love and trust in return. If you don't have that and can't achieve it where you are then you might consider making some changes...or you can continue to be detached and 'comfortable'.

Take care of yourself. I wish the best for you.

Apologies - I've had work issues to take care of.... systems fail over testing with 15 different cooks in the kitchen!!!!

Thanks to everyone that has posted to the thread. ALL of it has been helpful.

hikingout

Take a chance, talk to her about it. You might find that worthwhile and you might find yourself doing it more moving forward so long as she is soft with you and not defensive.

I wish I could do this with my FWW. But as I said, she wilts under self analysis, and more so when confronted by someone else. I mean she just crumbles. She has her own issues to deal with before I can have this conversation with her. She's talking to IC (though stay at home has made it a bit difficult) so we shall see how she progresses.

Hopefully we'll get to that point soon.

Stinger

The way I view it, I would need to use mental gymnastics to convince myself I was not Plan B. I simply could not do it.

I wouldn't say I've gone as far as mental gymnastics to convince myself. I just assumed I was not the first choice and that it was up to my wife to make me not regret it. At first she failed, but she eventually got it rolling to where I often had to let her know she can take it easy...that I'm fine (other than the occasional blip like I'm having now). My opinion is becoming more and more that no one is ever really a Plan A. I'm starting to think Plan A is a nice sentiment for "You are my focus now" regardless of how we get there...

Westway

All of the traits that my STBXWW likes in a man are not traits that I can achieve. So I don't dwell on it. I think as a guy you just have to work at being the best version of yourself that you can be. I think if you do that, some woman is bound to notice and like what she sees.

In a strange way, my FWWs foolishness restored something that I gave away for her. The confidence to be who I am - take it or leave it. I've heard of the "antenna" that people have when

a mental/spiritual connection between spouses is broken and other men/women starting to fish to see if something might start up. Maybe it is just me being more confident or just more aware of my surroundings. Regardless, I know I have options if the marriage ends - I just have to do my own cost/benefit analysis (more than just about the relationship with FWW).

Dismayed2012

So it sounds like you were a rebound relationship that turned into a marriage.

When you don't tackle issues head on and immediately, they sit in the back of your mind and continue to make appearances throughout your life.

You should allow yourself to evaluate your relationship again; it sounds like you may be doing that already. Look at all of your options including divorce. Don't pre-select a path like you did last time.

"Yes" to all of this. Again - for me, it is about more than just the relationship to FWW (though obviously that is a big one that might knock other aspects of life off kilter).

I have scheduled my own visit with IC again. We shall see how it goes. I'm not much of a fan of therapists having had too many bad experiences to just trust the process. But I think it is time for another go at this point.

[This message edited by LostOpportunities20 at 4:14 PM, June 25th (Thursday)]