SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

. There is a lot of good information and research in there on blackout drinking and what it looks like. Spoiler alert is that in a lot of cases nobody knows the person is that drunk. Might help you process this to hear the stories there and the facts on this.

Yup, that would be me. You'd know I had something to drink, but no idea that I was blacked out. Act normally (well, normally enough to pass as "he had a few", but not "he's hammered"), talk normally enough, hold conversations.. I believe the piece you're referring to is about a guy who woke up in Vegas like 3 days later, no idea how he got there. Apparently got on a plane, flew to Vegas, secured a hotel room and stayed there for a few days drinking, and never raised more than an eyebrow as to his level of intoxication. It's a very difficult problem when it comes to consent, if you can't tell if the person is blacked out, what then? What if you're also blacked out?

The solution to this sticky problem is simple. STOP DRINKING. It's not really rocket science, and if you're not blacking out, it's still bad for you and you still do stupid things and make horrible decisions when drunk.

Your GF's problem is most likely one of self-control and booze. Unfortunately, what she did while drunk hurt you terribly, and that's a seperate but related problem. Don't mix the two, she's a drunk and she cheated. Two problems to deal with here and only you can decide if it's a problem you want to help her deal with or one she does alone. You have no obligation to help her, but, if you want to, her drinking has to be front and center.

Take this from a "former" drinker, what today seems like the end of the world (I can never drink again?!) tomorrow becomes literally nothing. Until this thread, I hadn't thought about it for years, maybe decades. It's just a non issue.

I'm in agreement with the others that feel she has a drinking problem. First, who in the hell gets black out drunk at a work holiday party? Especially if she's only worked there 2 months. That's beyond stupid career-wise. Nobody wants to be the drunken asshole that tells off the boss or otherwise makes fool of themselves. That doesn't make sense to me.

Secondly, why would she not switch to non alcoholic drinks at some point? Even during the after party club crawl. Why even go if she's that intoxicated.

Also, I'm confused on the ONS guy's living arrangements. Was he a housemate of hers, meaning he shared an apartment with her? Or were the other cab folks his housemates?

Even though this was a company Christmas party, it was still a work-related event. Why did she choose to drink heavily? Heavy drinking at the party, then bar-hopping.

during this time nothing was amiss with my gf, just very drunk and already at the point where she wasn't going to remember anything

She continued to drink heavily, and it sounds like she has a history of being blackout drunk, i.e., conscious but not remembering things. From what you've described, she has a drinking problem and needs to address it.

It's hard to sort out the infidelity aspect of all of this. Was she taken advantage of due to alcohol and possibly drugs? Was it her choice? I don't think that can be determined either way 100%.

There is a lot of very good, considered thought in this thread. This post, by OwningItNow, made me rethink some of my comments:

If there was any part of her that willingly or carelessly wanted to have sex with this guy, she would not have told you what happened immediately. She did not wait a day, a week, or a month; she woke up and tearfully told you without a moment's thought. We never see that here. That is a sign of honesty, accountability, trustworthiness, and loyalty--even in the face of potentially devastating consequences to herself. If you can't get over it that is ok, but you do have a lot to work with here compared to most of us.

eta: Many, many men take advantage of very drunk women. We women do mess up with alcohol, and then we pay a very high price. A female suffers when a person has access to her body against her will, even if she was unconscious. The only way I've been able to get a male to understand is to imagine if another male gained access to his body against his will and how he would feel after that act has been forced on him, conscious or unconscious. That is a fair comparison to how we women feel. It's violating. Something has been taken from us and we can't get it back, regardless of a rape charge. This happens to more women than I could ever name. One particular time in college it only did not happen to me because one boy stood up to a couple of others and protected me while I was passed out. I am forever grateful for his empathy and courage; he saved me from a lifetime of anguish and shame. These situations literally happen to women every day, so your girlfriend's tale is more than plausible. Coupled with her immediate confession, it is almost certain.

In my post, I was initially suspicious that your GF was so willing to take responsibility for consenting to the sex, while claiming to remember nothing.

What I think now is that she was taking responsibility not for consenting to the sex, but for drinking to the point where she was not in a fit state to refuse/prevent it.

That is remarkably honest.

I think OwningItNow's post really nails the question of intent, and answers my questioning the nature of the relationship between your GF and the guy who took advantage of her. I wondered if perhaps some kind of rapport or chemistry had developed between them, but OIN's point about how if your GF had meant or wanted the sex to happen, she would have said nothing about it is 100% right.

You would not have known about any of this if your GF had not called you only hours after it happened. That is not the action of a scheming liar who wanted to road test other guys. That is the action of an honest woman who was unhappy that she drank herself into a state where a scummy opportunist could take advantage of her, and who wanted to be honest with you about it.

OIN is right; we almost never see an immediate confession like that. In fact, there are many threads here where an affair or a one night stand is only confessed to several decades after it happened.

A woman I work with told me that when she and her friends went out drinking, they always made sure they knew where all of them were, and they made sure that they were never left alone, where something bad could happen.

If your GF had been there long enough to develop a couple of female buddies, the evening would have ended very differently, probably with all of them back at someone's apartment, opening a bottle of prosecco, talking into the early hours of the morning, and having a drunken sleepover.

Unfortunately, your GF did not have a couple of female 'wing-men' to look after her, and so she wound up in the 'care' of her prospective male housemate.

Kind of funny about that guy.

He wanted to be your GF's housemate.

He was at the same party, but he did not get sloppy drunk.

When your GF was leaving, just by chance, he happened to be in the same cab. Go figure.

On arrival at your GF's flat, he hopped out - nowhere near his place, strangely enough - and suggested a trip to the bar across the road.

A few drinks later, he escorted your GF back to her place, as any protective gentleman would do.

And he steered her back to her bedroom, because like any protective gentleman, he was concerned that she got a good night's sleep.

And then, later, he called her boyfriend and it became clear that while the GF had been sh*tfaced drunk, he had been sober enough to be able to describe what occurred in the bedroom.

So who should be blamed for what happened that night? The GF is 'guilty' of drinking way too much to try and fit in with a new group of people she was trying to get to know.

What about the potential housemate, who kept himself sober at a works party where the drink clearly flowed freely, perhaps because he wanted to make sure that his potential female housemate made it back to her place unharmed.

It's not like he had an unhealthy interest in the GF, is it?

He stayed sober at the party, made sure he was in the same cab with her, got out of the cab with her and took her to a bar across the street from her place (not near his place), bought drinks, escorted her back, led her to her bedroom...And afterwards, he was only too happy to describe his exploits to the distraught boyfriend.

Oh yes, he's one hell of a guy.

GoQuiet, your GF did not intend the sex to happen. She had no interest in the guy. What she is guilty of is drinking herself to the point where a scummy opportunist could take advantage of her. Perhaps because she was trying to fit in with a bunch of strangers she barely knew, in a job she wanted to be successful in.

And the moment she woke up, she was calling you to tell you what had happened.

What you are looking at here is not a deliberate and knowing cheat, but a woman who drank too much, who had no idea about the nature of the interest her prospective housemate had in her.

As so many others have said, the real issue here is the drinking, and the need to limit it in future. Your GF did not intentionally cheat.

If she did not intentionally cheat then she needed to call it the rape as it . She did not.

‘Blackout drunk’ is the biggest excuse in the book. It’s possible but extremely extremely unlikely.

Once again:

I am NOT stating this was rape or that she’s a victim. I really don’t think I have the info required to reach that conclusion. In fact I don’t think any of us do.

I more often than not agree with M1965. What he describes as having maybe happened is one possible scenario. He also describes a reality for women: they need to take care of each other. It’s not so much because they might drink too much but rather the risk of having their drinks spiked. It’s a reality that women have had to deal with for some time, and sadly is also becoming a reality for young men.

I would like to elaborate on his theory or timeline:

IF the OM had intent all the time (or at least part of the evening) he could have slipped a roofie into her drink. After that it’s simply a case of remaining close and manipulating her to accept his suggestions. The perpetrator spikes the drink and then simply manipulates the victim once the effects are clear. To observers it’s as if the victim has had a bit too much to drink but not necessarily reeling drunk. The victim will have very limited recollection of events next morning.

MOST date-rapes (and in fact most rapes overall) are done by men that know the victim. For those with rape-inclination the roofie/date rape strategy is relatively safe. The victims have a lower ratio of pressing charges and the burden of proof is near impossible. The drug leaves the body quickly so finding traces can be hard (hair or nail samples).

This is more common than you could imagine: my young adult sons tell me that ordering a roofie is about as easy as scoring any other “soft” drug.

I am NOT offering the above as an excuse, justification or absolution on her actions. Not any more than M1965 is. This is simply one possible scenario.

IMHO the key might lie in how you evaluate her drinking-patterns. If excessive black-out drinking is out of character then the date-rape theory gains value IMHO. If she has a history of excessive drinking the alcoholic scenario I describe gains value.

But then – maybe she just willingly cheated and is using alcohol as an excuse.

Thanks for all of your replies, I wasn't expecting to get quite so many responses over a short period!

They've been very helpful, I have written down the sequence of events as factually and detailed as possible to what I know. The fact that there is a split opinion I think highlights the ambiguity that surrounds the issue.

It's left me with a whole host of thinking points and things to respond to. I'll go through the major points people have raised.

Firstly, with reference to drinking, I'm in complete agreement that this is the central issue. Had there not been the irresponsibility and naivety of drinking to such excess, particularly given the circumstances and surroundings then this situation could have been avoided completely. Her response to this has been to give up drinking until we can see each other again and we can see where we go from there. Obviously I have no way of assuring it but such is the situation. For those who asked she did get checked afterwards, fortunately she hadn't picked anything up. We have worked on setting a number of boundaries for how to move forward and particularly the context in which we enjoy alcohol.

There hasn't been a recent history of alcoholism or similar, but having semi-recently been students there was certainly a lot of binge drinking back then. During recent CC we've identified that when she was at Uni she would binge drink due to loneliness and anxiety coming from that, however she didn't really realise it as an issue at the time because it fell in line with the overall drinking culture. I highlighted that this situation was reflective of how she said she used to be before being with me, so we recognised there was a certain reliance on alcohol to deal with emotions that she struggles with.

Since being together we have become a lot more responsible, and if having a bigger night it has always been either with each other, or with trusted friends known by both of us. No behaviour from previous nights out suggested that this could have happened.

I appreciate the comments made on blacking out on a comparatively 'modest' quantity of alcohol, however from what has been relayed to me, the amount drunk was excessive.

M1965

What is troubling here is that your wife says that her friends confirmed that she was drunk, but not black-out drunk at the point that she got out of the cab.

Then she and this guy who may or may not have been a lot less drunk went to another bar, and by the time she left, she was a lot more drunk, or her drink had been spiked.

Slightly off from what happened as I was told. The sequence of events she either remembers or has been informed of:

- Work Party (lots of drinking)

- Left work party to go to bars (lack of memory)

- Cab back to house (lack of memory, does not remember the journey or exiting the cab)

- Walked to nearby bar over the road - At this point it was just him and her, the bar was closed so they went back to the house.

- Outside the house- kiss on the porch she has unclear recollection of. No memory after

Woke up the next day - Asked him to leave, called me.

Who initiated that phone call, and how did that guy get your number? It seems very strange that he would decide to call you up and tell you his version of events without any prompting from anyone else.

She had his number from the house group that had been set up on Whatsapp, following what happened she spoke to him and told him he needed to call me an explain what happened as I had asked. This was shortly after I found out (about a week after) My first reaction was to try and get a clear picture of what happened, and get some sort of answer(s). It was a catch 22, looking back on it now there are other questions I would have asked but my head was a bit of a mess at the time. Equally if I hadn't requested it that early I doubt he would have called me at all.

In this case though, the ONS partner was a guy that your wife knew from work, and had built up enough of a rapport with to be comfortable doing a house-share with him. And to go drinking with him.

They didn't know each other very well at all. The company office, because of it's location takes a number of people from different countries who join in different cohorts. They get put up in individual temp accommodation and have a few weeks to sort out house shares with other new starters. My gf made friends with another girl from her intake who was in the process of organising this house share, this other girl knew this guy.

Yes, she may have been trashed when it happened, but I get the feeling that it may have been an accident that was waiting to happen, and had perhaps been building for a while before it happened.

He arrived in country later than my girlfriend, they met briefly about 5 days before the Xmas party. My gf stated she had limited interaction, no intention beforehand and does not find him attractive. He stated that he had no intention and it 'just happened.' At the time of the Xmas party he was still living in individual temp accommodation, but had agreed to move in to the house with the same group my Gf was in. The house was closer to the bars they were at which was his justification for going there rather than to his accommodation.

GoQuiet, the fact that you have come this forum, and not simply dropped your GF, suggests that you would like to see if things can work between you and your GF.

Be honest: how well do you really know each other?

Absolutely, I do want to see if this can work as it's blindsided me to the extent that my core feelings towards her haven't changed, I feel it would be a waste to move on without an attempt to reconcile what we've built up. If the circumstances seemed different i.e there was a clear emotional bond built up between her and this guy prior to the cheating then I wouldn't have stuck around. However the sudden-ness and circumstances surrounding it have made me think that it may be something we might be able to work through.

Honestly, we know each other very well, prior to the both of us going away we were semi-long distance due to where we were both based, but we saw each other weekends and have spent many holidays, family events etc together. We've been at the core of each other's lives since finishing University, but due to being based separately haven't hit some of the milestones that couples might do such as moving in together and the like.

it could be a disaster from which she learns a lesson, and which she never repeats. Only time will tell on that score.

These are my current thoughts on it, and our interactions and her response since have suggested the latter may be the case, as you say only time will tell.

Thanks for giving such a comprehensive response, it's much appreciated and would be interested to hear your take given the above info.

Unsure2019, Buster123, and others speaking along these lines

I’m not necessarily in agreement with earlier posters that you WWGF’s experience was rape. It could have been, but it could have just as easily been two very drunken adults having sex. By jumping on the “rape” bandwagon it tends to excuse, or at least minimize, your WWGF’s actions/involvement and give you a reason to forgive and move to R.

100% agreed, I'm not trying to minimise her accountability or jump on the bandwagon. It's more I've started looking at it from a different angle and my situation means my thoughts are a complete echo chamber. Out here I don't have any others to talk about it so I'm not sure how reasonable my lines of thinking are. The two circumstances require a different response though, it doesn't make it any easier for me either way but it's a means of trying to better balance my thoughts by hearing the points of view of others. One thing I do know is that this would not have happened had no drink involved, and the lack of memory is what throws uncertainty over the situation.

With regards to interpretation / legality of the situation, I by no means wanted to imply I definitely thought this was rape. It's more my reaction to it up until now has been the fact she cheated. As a result I've felt justifiably, angry, upset, betrayed everything I'm sure others here have felt in similar situations to my own. However by coincidence one of the Mil Police here was talking about how hard it is to investigate just these sorts of cases which lead me to look in to it further and has made me realise that there may be a lot more too it which is (and might always be) unclear.

Dyokemm

Hi mate, you're right - it certainly does suck..

If I read you right......she only remembered some details, like the kiss, after her memory was jogged when talking to her companions that night.

She has 3 images of the night she has a slight recollection of. These she's maintained since she told me, given she's told me she can remember anything at all I feel inclined to believe her. Again it ties in with her not having to tell me at all so I think she's (for the most part) being truthful. The blanks were filled in for the night up to getting out of the taxi. After that she only has slight recollection of the kiss. I've spoken to her extensively about this, and whilst doing CC, there's not been any revelations.

OwningItNow

If there was any part of her that willingly or carelessly wanted to have sex with this guy, she would not have told you what happened immediately. She did not wait a day, a week, or a month; she woke up and tearfully told you without a moment's thought. We never see that here. That is a sign of honesty, accountability, trustworthiness, and loyalty--even in the face of potentially devastating consequences to herself. If you can't get over it that is ok, but you do have a lot to work with here compared to most of us.

Thanks for your message, I agree, the fact that she told me so soon, and also told me about what she could remember of the night is what to me demonstrates that there wasn't any intention for this to happen beforehand. The contact we had that day beforehand, the things she bought in auction and her contacting me immediately after are small things which demonstrate the qualities you state. Of course she could be lying, but I think if she were then why would she tell me at all? There's a lot of different lines to it that I'm thinking through.

Rideitout

As per my previous response to a couple of the others, I agree that drunkenness does not remove the culpability of a person for their actions. However some people can and do end up doing things that are dangerous / harmful / out of character when they've drunk to excess. This can lead to bad situations where the circumstances are unclear. Rethinking whether I'm being too hard on my girlfriend isn't as a result of me trying to reduce her culpability. It's because if this situation is more akin to rape, then I feel a significantly different approach is required from us both to move past it. Agree with the driving comparison, have seen that a few times and it puts it into perspective. Only thing I would say is it doesn't involve another person who could be influencing the situation.

As per the .18 / .20 BAC – again, I understand some people black out having drunk less, but I know this wasn't the case on that night. The way people behave when blackout drunk is evidently different from person to person and is reflective of how much alcohol they have required to get in to that state. Additionally, in referencing that figure I'm not saying that's the amount BAC that she was at, as no one will know what that was. All I am saying is that it is evident she has little to no memory of how the night progressed after a certain point.

Bigger

As per my message above, one arriving overseas at her new job there was a bit of a party lifestyle within the new starters. There were a lot of events involving drinking which she did go to, but there were no incidents before this one. There has only been one night out that we spent together (her 21st birthday) where she had drunk to the extent of blackout. We had recently started seeing each other at this point and I had to carry her to bed despite being drunk myself. This is the only time I've seen her in this state and the only idea of what level of drunk she'd have to be at. She's told me she's been less drunk than that before at Uni and suffered memory loss but that those times she'd still clearly been drunk. It's hard because personally I don't suffer memory blanks whilst drunk, I can be a mess but I'll usually remember everything.

Beenthereinco

Thanks for the link, I'll look in to it.

Buck

Also, I'm confused on the ONS guy's living arrangements. Was he a housemate of hers, meaning he shared an apartment with her? Or were the other cab folks his housemates?

Living arrangements I mentioned above, the other 2 in the car were other new starters who were carrying on to another house.

M1965

If your GF had been there long enough to develop a couple of female buddies, the evening would have ended very differently

100% agreed, I've laboured this point to her, and the point many others of you are making. Drinking excessively around people she didn't know was irresponsible and stupid, and could have ended up much worse. I've asked her what she was thinking drinking to such excess, it boils down to a couple of reasons;

- She felt in a safe environment as everyone else was a new starter, some she had known since she had arrived, so despite not knowing them well she considered them friends. (Have since told her that as nice as someone is, you cannot assume to know / trust them within this space of time..)

- She wanted to relax at the work party, she had been leading on organising part of the event for the week so had been anxious to get it done successfully, once that was done she felt she deserved a drink and to let her hair down.

Obviously neither of these overlook how stupid an idea it was to carry on drinking, particularly with what was being consumed.

GoQuiet, your GF did not intend the sex to happen. She had no interest in the guy. What she is guilty of is drinking herself to the point where a scummy opportunist could take advantage of her. Perhaps because she was trying to fit in with a bunch of strangers she barely knew, in a job she wanted to be successful in.

This is what I lean towards, and what her communication with me has suggested. Unfortunately I'll never know the intentions of the bloke, he had clearly also been drinking, but had a clear recollection of events, what got me is when I asked him what happened after they got into the house he shot back with 'I don't really know how much detail you want me to go in to' so he clearly had good memory of what happened. However the lack of interaction between him and my girlfriend on the night and beforehand suggest maybe it wasn't that pre-planned. Maybe he saw the opportunity and took it thinking she was less drunk, maybe it was all wrong place, wrong people wrong time. We'll never really know. As I say – it's always going to be a grey area. As you say though I did take what he said with a pinch of salt, making the choice to get in the cab with my GF into a situation he knew would end up being 1on1 makes me think he maybe saw an opportunity.

So who should be blamed for what happened that night? The GF is 'guilty' of drinking way too much to try and fit in with a new group of people she was trying to get to know.

This is almost exactly how she recalled events to me, and the conclusion I arrived at a few weeks after finding out. Funny that.

Thank you all so much for your responses. It's really helpful and insightful to read people's points of view and be able to gain a bit of perspective on this. It's been very much needed and seeing your responses is like a breath of fresh air for my thoughts.

Can we please stop with the “rape” bent here. Also stop calling the GF an alcoholic or insinuating she wanted to sleep with this guy and is using alcohol as an excuse.

These are not helping in my opinion.

The GF has Admitted her mistakes. That’s more than so many cheaters do.

The question is - can they reconcile after this event? Can the betrayed boyfriend accept this event and still want to be in a relationship?

I agree with the above from The 1st Wife ^^^^!

As.a ex serving member it is difficult to rebuild the trust after a betrayal. The loss of respect and trust Has to be earned. Difficult in a LDR or continuing operational deployments.

Good luck and thank you for your service.

Buffer

This type of situation, GoQuiet, often brings a slew of different opinions and thoughts from people. And I want to tell you that when it comes to alcohol and sex, the line between "consented" and "was not mentally able to consent" gets very murky.

I do not think your gf's situation is rape as it is defined legally, and I don't think anybody should be charged with rape. That does not, however, imply that your gf will not feel violated, deeply ashamed, and possibly even suffer PTSD. This is because when women are extremely intoxicated to the point of being just this side of conscious, we no longer have the ability to consent. Can a man know this? Many times the answer is no, unless you know the woman well enough to say, "She is not herself right now. She does not know what she is doing." So it's not rape. After all, we put ourselves into this position, and we may have seemed somewhat aware enough to consent.

But the way we feel in our heads as we're drinking that much, way too much, is completely different. We don't know what's going on, and we won't remember much when we wake up. If/when we find out that we were with someone sexually, this feels hugely shocking and shameful because we have no conscious recollection and would never have wanted this. That is why I was so grateful that my friend protected me in college, as I spoke of previously. I had actually woken up to go the bathroom when the boys made their move. I appeared somewhat conscious but was not. I was open to suggestion because I was not in my right mind. As I walked to the bathroom, someone told me, "It's right here," and they opened a closet door. Apparently I started walking in to the closet and they screamed, "Damn! Stop! We're just kidding." You can see that awake is not awake.

I'm older now (but still cute as heck! Lol), but I have never participated in casual sex. I've only been with 4 people in my life, and all of them were relationships. My body is not shared with just anyone. If one or more of those boys had successfully touched or penetrated me that night, I would not have mentally been ok. I would not have called it rape, but I would have felt violated and taken advantage of and dirty. It would have felt like rape to me, and I would have needed to deal with those horrible, shameful feelings.

You do not have to reconcile with your gf. You do not have to be ok with her actions. The drinking needs to be handled because she is living dangerously. But I wanted you to understand that she probably participated and probably had no clue what she was doing; these are not mutually exclusive ideas. It is very easy for women to passively "participate" in sex. We don't have to take an active role, and we could get into the psychology of whether or not certain types of men notice or care, as a whole other subject. But we women can simply not forcefully object and the sex happens. We absolutely have sex that we don't want to have at times because of our ability to passively participate, so I don't want you to think that she must have wanted it. There's no "must have" here. Based on the facts you've shared, I doubt she was capable of that level of agreement or action. She most likely just went along with it like when the boys told me the closet was the bathroom. Now your gf has to live with the shame and dirty feelings that can follow a terrible decision, the decision to drink so much. That is on her, for sure.

Good luck either way.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 6:52 AM, June 28th (Sunday)]

Now that it’s been gone over from every possible angle as to what might have actually happened, I thought it might be useful to talk about the future. As I said before, I had a similar experience only I found out years later.

My impression is that you will not be living together for a long time. In a way that is counterproductive to healing. During that time you will be on a long path of self reflection and doubt. No matter what she says by phone or text, disbelief will be there. There can be no resolution with someone so far away.

Yet this can be a good time for self reflection. Given what you now know, is she a good candidate for marriage? One clue is whether she is defensive about her drinking. Another is if she too blithely puts her behavior down to alcohol. What you will be hearing is that you should get over it.

On the other hand, has she done things on her own that are encouraging? Made a plan to get out of her current living situation? Or are you going to be ok with her seeing the om all the time? Is she digging deep on her behavior through counseling? Is she seeking ways to be part from the usual gang? Has she told her family?

A very good indication of her view of this is whether she gets std tests on her own. If she hasn’t that should give you pause.

Anyway, The fact that you are here seven months later says a lot. You will be having mixed feelings about this in seven years, and seventeen. This is not going to disappear. It will fade, but it will pop up in your mind on a word or event. You will get a shot of unfocused anxiety at odd times. But you can’t mention it or you will be told that you must get over it. And there will always be a particle of doubt. When she’s late or gone for a few days it will creep in unbidden. You up for that?

Lots of guys stay with cheaters. Some regret it deeply, some are fine. No way to know in your case, but if you are still struggling perhaps you should listen to your heart. It sounds like it’s telling you to separate from the pain and doubt.

GoQuiet, just to add my two cents for what it’s worth. You can take it with a grain of salt or not. I have a few things to throw past you.

1) the drinking, it’s pretty much been covered, but, allow me to explain a revisit to this topic. I am a recovering alcoholic, there are times when I don’t remember immediately what may have occurred, but over the next days, weeks and months it slowly comes back. I find it strange that there is no more recall of the night in question unless drugs were involved.

2) why is she still there? You are Separated, yes, but she’s still working in the same company as the POSOM. I would think to alleviate any tension with you she would automatically have quit the job and gone home. You said he works in a different department. Bottom line is that they both work for the same company in the same town.

3) Why would she want contact with the POSOM after the fact? She told him to contact you and tell his part of the story?

Wow! I would think that when he called she would have ripped him a new one then told him to forget her number which shouldn’t matter if she left to go home anyway. I just find the contact strange after what occurred. By the way, if I were the POSOM, I would get as far away from you as I could, not call you to tell you I banged your girlfriend.

I’m not telling you to split or reconcile, but given you a bit more insight that you may or may not have missed. Yes it’s great on her part to have called you and be honest with you, but I feel there might be more to the story.

I sincerely wish you well in your deliberations and thank you for your service.

The additional information makes things clearer.

The incident should never have happened, but I do not think there is more depth, planning, deception, or preparation by your girlfriend behind it.

By all means ask as many questions as you need to ask, but I think that it would be a waste of energy to keep looking for multiple levels where they most likely do not exist.

If you find yourself asking the same questions repeatedly, it may be a sign that you have hit a mental sticking point, or something you cannot get past. It does not seem like that is happening, which is good, as it will help you to move forwards from this.

Be careful to not allow that event to become your version of the JFK assassination. Something to be picked over endlessly for decades to come, without ever reaching a conclusion.

The vital thing is that your GF should make herself as ‘incident’ proof as possible, by making sure she only has a few drinks if she goes out socializing, or sticking to soft drinks.

Many people need to drink in social situations to be able to relax, and it is worth exploring that with your GF, so that she can better understand how she uses alcohol. That will help to manage booze, and herself, better in future.

That said, I do not think she is an alcoholic in the making. She just needs more self-control, and to be honest with herself about her ability to have just a couple of drinks and stop. If she has trouble with that, she needs to not start at all.

The other thing she needs to be careful about is to not end up in one-to-one social situations with men that could become ‘awkward’, or send the wrong signals.

Some men can be really pushy, and sadly, every woman has to develop a few techniques to politely but firmly stop those jerks in their tracks. How confident do you think your GF would be to do that?

People talk about developing a strong ‘no’, and there are plenty of articles online that provide tips and advice about what to say or do in social situations if a guy tries to cross boundaries.

In terms of your GF’s honesty, and actions in the immediate aftermath of the incident, I think it be productive for you to reverse the scenario, and imagine it was you waking up in bed next to a woman you hardly knew, hungover, and thinking, “What the Hell???”

Would you have called your GF straight away, or would you have thought, “Oh crap…I am going to have to take this one to my grave”?

And if you did call, what would you say to convince her beyond any shadow of doubt that you did not plan it or engineer it? That you had, and have, no feelings for the woman? How would you reassure her?

It’s difficult, isn’t it? So perhaps there are times when your GF gets frustrated with the impossibility of proving it to you 100%.

If your GF had been developing feelings for that guy prior to the incident, and she was happy with what happened, she could have said nothing to you.

He could have moved in to the same house with her, and your GF could have told you all about her new male housemate, who is the gayest man she has ever met. So you have nothing at all to worry about. Actually, you’d love him; he’s such a scream.

It would be the ‘prefect crime’. Why would you suspect her gay housemate of any foul play?

She did not do that, though, did she?

Everything about what happened suggests that this was an unplanned one-off incident, in which an opportunistic man took advantage of a woman who drank too much, and was in no fit state to make rational decisions.

That does not make her uniquely evil or stupid. Nobody makes good decisions when they are drunk!

No, she should not have done what she did, but this does not automatically be the end of the relationship. It can be a wake-up call, and you can move forwards from it.

I think it would be good to ask your GF how she feels about the amount of sex she has had, and if she would really be happy at this point in her life to commit to an exclusive, monogamous relationship. The obvious answer she is likely to give is, “Of course”, but she really needs to think about it.

The reason I suggest this is because there are lots of threads here about couples that were high-school sweethearts that never slept with anyone else, and then they hit their thirties or forties and one person in the couple suddenly wants to experience sex with someone else. And that leads to trouble.

In fairness, that is also something that you need to think about if you are considering taking your relationship with your GF to the next level at some point.

Long-distance relationships can be very hard to maintain, even with all the communications technology we have now. They can fall apart or dissolve simply because people are not with each other. So I hope that there is a way that the two of you can live together fairly soon.

I am concerned that with you being in the services, and your GF starting a career with a big company that requires its staff to relocate, or live out of a suitcase, that one or both of you are going to have to keep relocating because of your jobs.

For now, that is very much a consideration for the future, but it is something both of you need to think about if being together later this year feels ‘right’.

My personal feeling is that the two of you have a good chance of getting past this.

What happened could be viewed as a test of the relationship. Both of you have emerged from that test wanting to still be together, and to take things forward. So I think you should head in that direction.

Yes, keep your wits about you, but do not become too anxious or paranoid about things. Never forget that your GF may also be wondering how you are spending your leisure time, and who you are with. Particularly after that disastrous night.

Also, please re-read the posts by OwningItNow. The female perspective on the situation your GF found herself in is very enlightening, and OIN covers a lot of important points.

If your GF wanted to break up with you and be a free agent, or that she wanted to lie and have casual sex while she is away, she would not have called you the next day, or tried since then to provide you with some reassurance that what happened was an anomaly rather than a new lifestyle.

However, the loudest voice that you should listen to is the one that comes from within you. Trust your gut. You would be amazed how much you pick up and ‘sense’ without realizing it.

Please keep us posted on progress, GQ. I am hoping that two of you can get past this.

[This message edited by M1965 at 9:50 AM, June 28th (Sunday)]

However that doesn’t resolve your issue. Is this something YOU can live with?

You can analyze and rationalize what happened with her until forever. You can establish culpability on her part, or you can absolve her. Whichever case, her actions following could be absolutely perfect in every possible way that could possibly be done. She could do everything perfectly. Call you immediately. Be totally transparent. Seek counseling. Etc. It sounds like she is doing it already.

Here's the deal. It still leaves you with a problem. Can you live with this?

This is a problem that you have to solve for yourself. A problem that she can do nothing more beyond what she is already doing to help.

The longer it takes to realize this, the less likelihood you'll address. You will just keep going back to the evening, the drinking, the cabs, the alcohol, the sex. Looking for the answer there, but that is not where the answer lies.

Sending strength!

Your replies have been incredibly helpful.

OwningItNow

Your last message was incredibly insightfful, you've articulated what is and continues to be for other women a very complex and sensitive issue when alcohol gets involved.

But the way we feel in our heads as we're drinking that much, way too much, is completely different. We don't know what's going on, and we won't remember much when we wake up. If/when we find out that we were with someone sexually, this feels hugely shocking and shameful because we have no conscious recollection and would never have wanted this.

This is where the ambiguity in these situation lies. Your explanation aligns very closely with her version of events. As you have outlined better than I ever could, the situation that she's described falls into a murky area that isn't rape, yet at the same time doesn't reflect consent on her part.

We absolutely have sex that we don't want to have at times because of our ability to passively participate, so I don't want you to think that she must have wanted it. There's no "must have" here. Based on the facts you've shared, I doubt she was capable of that level of agreement or action. She most likely just went along with it like when the boys told me the closet was the bathroom. Now your gf has to live with the shame and dirty feelings that can follow a terrible decision, the decision to drink so much. That is on her, for sure.

Speaking to her since it is evident that she would not have wanted this sober. A lot of reading around has yielded what I feel are overly simplified views on similar scenarios. 'Drunk actions are sober thoughts' and 'People who cheat drunk must have thought about it sober' are statements that come to mind. Though I'm sure these are applicable in some situations, they don't seem to be the case here. Her reaction, explanation of events and actions to try and reconcile in the months since suggest a situation much more in line with what you have described.

Thank you for your time and insight. It's immeasurably helpful.

longsadstory1952

Hi mate,

It will be a while until we get to live together yeah. When I'm back from tour we'll have a month together and we'll be back together for good from Xmas this year, so it's a challenging situation, but it's manageable. We had looked at living together from the start of next year but that was before this happened, so we're going to see how things feel and progress later this year and gradually build from there.

Yet this can be a good time for self reflection. Given what you now know, is she a good candidate for marriage?

Though it's reset the clock on that front, Despite what's happened I do still see potenial for us. That is one of the biggest hits for me as it was something I was looking towards next year, but this is a major setback for us. As above we're going to build things gradually and see if we can get back to where we were (or an equivalent of.)

As soon as it happened she cancelled the move in to that house and lived in temp accommodation. She moved in to a separate house with one other girl. She never lived with the OM as a result of this.

She told her family who have been supportive of us both. She got checked for STDs shortly after what happened before anything physical happened between us. It was something I found pretty emotional her having to do.

She set up the counselling, and it's been very helpful for us both. A platform for me to vent my emotion but more recently it has been focussed on her. She's been invested in each session, CC has probably been the best means of moving forward for us both since the incident.

The fact that you are here seven months later says a lot. You will be having mixed feelings about this in seven years, and seventeen. This is not going to disappear. It will fade, but it will pop up in your mind on a word or event

Though I know this is going to be something that is always part of our relationship, this is what concerns me. Really I want it to be something we grow from as a couple, I don't want it to be something that provokes worry or anxiety for years to come. My thought is that if we stay together we need to find a 'new normal'. We won't have the unconditional trust that was there before, but we will have the knowledge that this is never out of the realm of possibility and hopefully we can become stronger from it. It will take time, but there are a number of steps that we have yet to take together, so hopefully in taking those steps we can distance ourselves from mistakes of the past and become a stronger team. Maybe I'm dreaming too big though.

OldNeighbour

In response to your questions:

Yeah she's still working there, it was something that bothered me initially for sure and definitely made the situation harder in the past. She works at client sites so she doesn't have office contact very often. If circumstances were different I may have given her the ultimatum, but with the development of COVID in the same time period and her becoming stuck overseas with lockdown it stopped becoming something I pushed for. She's now on a project meaning she's in a different office until we see each other and she hasn't been in the office anyway since March so it hasn't been a problem.

It couples up with the situation and circumstances. Though she's broken the trust between us with her actions, if we're to reconcile I can't allow that to make me doubt everything she's said. If what she has told me is true, which I think it is, then it isn't about this individual anyway, it's about the amount of alcohol she drank on the night. Really he's of no importance. If she proves me wrong on that then that's my fault for being an idiot, but if that happens then it was never meant to be anyway.

Regarding the OM contacting me, due to her lack of memory on the subject I messaged him on Facebook, and told her that I wanted to speak with him directly. He obliged and called me, I don't know what I hoped to glean from this conversation but what is evident is that he remembered in a lot more detail the sequence of events. It was pretty odd, I didn't really imagine he'd call me.

M1965

Again, thanks for your response mate, you've clearly taken a lot of time writing them and it's helped me out no-end.

You're right, the incident should'nt have happened. Due to the circumstances, as you say I don't want this to become something I ruminate over for years to come.

You've made a number of suggestions on things to discuss with her. One thing this incident has done is open up conversation between the two of us. Though the sex side of it has never been an issue for either of us, the long distance and career paths are areas that aren't necessarily working for us that we have started speaking about.

What happened could be viewed as a test of the relationship. Both of you have emerged from that test wanting to still be together, and to take things forward. So I think you should head in that direction.

Amongst a lot of the other points you've made, I like the way you've put this, and I hope we can both get to a point where really this becomes just a blip in the past that we learnt from. Hopefully despite being an awful occurrence between us we can more forwards and at some point be stronger than we were before.

I'll be sure to keep in touch as to how things progress, again thank you for taking the time to respond and give your advice on my issue. It's heartening to know I've got people on side!

Houseofplane

Thanks for your message. What I hope is that however this turns out I can grow from it as an individual. One thing I know I can't do as I mentioned above is keep going back to the incident as you say, I need to be able to accept it and move on. When I was younger this is not something I was very good at (was capable of holding a very robust grudge back then) Looking forward I'll come out of this situation having gained at least a little learning of myself and what I can deal with emotionally.

Again, thank you for all your messages.

Thanks for your message. What I hope is that however this turns out I can grow from it as an individual. One thing I know I can't do as I mentioned above is keep going back to the incident as you say, I need to be able to accept it and move on. When I was younger this is not something I was very good at (was capable of holding a very robust grudge back then) Looking forward I'll come out of this situation having gained at least a little learning of myself and what I can deal with emotionally.

That’s the right attitude. From the Mary Oliver poem, “The Uses of Sorrow”

Someone I loved once gave me a box full of darkness. It took me years to understand that this too, was a gift.

Drinking and infidelity...

Some people are predisposed to cheating while drunk. Some might even say we all are to some degree.

I don’t know if this is her. Don’t know her history.

Regardless, she has a drinking problem. To what degree, we don’t know. Only time and actions will tell. She has proven that she can drink until she is out of control. She has proven that she can drink until infidelity. It’s going to be a gamble for you to figure that out. You have to decide if you’re going to take that gamble or, cut your losses and run.

If you decide to take the gamble, you must lay down boundaries. Tight drinking boundaries.

Such as:

-No drinking alone

-No drinking without you or a trusted mutually agreed upon friend or family member in close company.

-Frequent check ins when out drinking

-OR, totally abstain from alcohol

She has already demonstrated that she is capable of cheating on you with the help of alcohol. There are many men and women out there who drink and never compromise themselves or their relationship this way. This may have been an isolated incident that can be prevented for the rest of your lives together or, it could be a harbinger of things to come.

Imagine if it was someone she is actually attracted to, who she knows better, trusts or even admires. Could this same outcome have occurred but with less alcohol on board, or even no alcohol? Could this more likely happen when she’s years into the dull drums of marriage with kids, add guy she’s attracted to, and little alcohol to the equation? She apparently barely knew this guy.

Love is a risky endeavor no matter how careful you are at selecting a mate. It’s always a gamble. You always leave yourself some what vulnerable.

I would watch for a time, a long time, how she controls her drinking and her behavior while drinking. Does she get flirty and impulsive? When you leave her alone at the bar, does she shrug off guys making passes? How are boundaries when sober? Does she protect your relationship or put it at risk?

This is a tough one. I like what Bigger said about victim bashing. It would be a shame to flush an otherwise good relationship, especially if she was unable to give consent, and a bigger shame to cause her more harm in doing so.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 7:37 PM, June 28th (Sunday)]