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I said that he doesnt have to understand or like it. Just do it.

I can give him a laundry list if things Not to do but if doesnt have the understanding or empathy to grasp why those things are on the list how will he ever change the behaviours so he isnt constantly repeating them?

Obviously the way things have been done isnt working.

He may not be 'encouraging' it, but he sure as shit ain't DISCOURAGING it either.

And hes not discouraging this because he sees it as FRIENDLY BANTER. If hes not writing lovey shit and hes not screwing her how is he doing anything wrong.

We as BS's complain that people dont understand our pain. And most dont until they have lived it. I haven't cheated on wh. He hasn't experienced THIS pain. So he sees my list as jealousy or nagging.

Wh needs ic and to dig into why he wants that attention.

I posted to see if I was being overly sensitive to him being friendly vs what i perceive as flirty. Again I'm bias.

The comments reflect that I'm not being unreasonable in feeling this way.

I'm trying to coordinate a massive cleaning effort with four kids who cant look at eachother without fighting....i may not respond as quickly.

Wh needs ic and to dig into why he wants that attention.

IC helped my WH get about 20% better at meeting my needs. My creating strong boundaries took that 20% and turned it into 60%. Then IC and MC continued that trajectory.

From near as I can tell from all of your posts, DragnHeart, your WS has no desire to understand your pain. No matter how you phrase it. Or the logic you use. It's pretty much the way it's always been between you two, so unless you plan on acting differently with him, this will most likely be the marriage you have forever--a husband with lady friends on the side who doesn't care what bothers you. I mean, your join date is 2011 and he's still at it. I do not see this ever changing.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 1:01 PM, July 21st (Tuesday)]

IC would be for him to dig into why he wants constant ego kibbles. Getting to the root of why he doesnt keep strong boundaries with other woman.

Of course he needs to want to do IC. I cant make him go. Then again he hasn't returned to IC because the only ones around are female and that's a massive trigger for me having his last female IC tell me that I "need to get over it already"...

Its not like this is an every other week thing. Up until the text to his former co worker (march) things hadn't been bad at all. The ramped up messages from future sil only came after the ATV accident on the 4th if this month.

I do think its unreasonable to expect him to never speak to another woman for the rest of his life. It's how he speaks to them and whether or not I'm included that I have issue with.

He said he didn't want to tell me the co worker wished him a happy birthday because he thought it would upset me. He needs to get it that it doesnt matter how I may feel he cant keep secrets. Because finding out he kept the conversation secret is what upset me, I didn't care that she and a few others from where he used to work wished him a happy birthday.

With future SIL he hasn't hidden the fact they are messaging eachother. But he isnt seeing that while he hasn't encouraged her he isnt discouraging her either. As was already mentioned.

I do think its unreasonable to expect him to never speak to another woman for the rest of his life.

I don't get the sense you're asking him to never talk to another woman ever (and yes, that would be unreasonable). Just asking him to draw clear boundaries as to what convos are appropriate or not. And to do that, it means he needs to grow a little bit of empathy for you and if nothing else RESPECT his wife by keeping conversations with other women to a bare minimum and only about immediate need-to-know shit.

I mean... to me that second part does not seem hard or particularly unreasonable, given that the reason you are having issues with it is because he cheated.

This is akin to a 'recovering' alcoholic going to a bar to 'hang out with friends'. Maybe they will drink, or maybe not, but it's a hell of a risky situation to be in for that person. Probably better to hang out with those friends at a restaurant for breakfast/brunch, or invite them over for a bbq instead.

Your wh is like that alcoholic, but imho he's just going through the motions of being in 'recovery' (aka white-knuckling). You are correct in that you can't make him do anything. But what you CAN do is lay down very firm boundaries of your own and stick to them for your own sake. That means that there need to be some consequences for him shitting on those boundaries. YOU get to decide where your boundaries are and what you need to feel secure. And so long as those are clearly communicated, then you don't owe anyone any justification for them.

TBH, I don't understand why you're going to bother explaining for the umpteenth time why you don't want him to share emotional intimacy with potential OW. If he doesn't see it as flirty, he's not going to suddenly agree with you. He's going to ignore you or argue with you and do what he wants behind your back. He has always done that. He always will do that.

If you're not willing to demand more for yourself and you wouldn't leave even if you caught him in bed with an OW, what's the point of all the drama twisting yourself into a pretzel trying to explain to him something he doesn't care about? Why not stop checking, stop confronting, and stop prodding him to do anything differently when he always disappoints you again later on? If nothing will make you leave, why pain shop by doing all that? Why expect fidelity from him at all?

That means that there need to be some consequences for him shitting on those boundaries.

I dont think he even realizes this is an issue for me since shes like family and the conversations haven't been anything close to what they were with his ows. So in his mind he may not realize hes shitting on those boundaries.

Our biggest problem is communication.

I want to talk about things like this and he takes it that I'm angry and yelling at him. I dont yell. He once kept saying stop yelling at me. I had a firm tone to my talking. But I wasnt yelling. I then gave him a taste of what me yelling meant.

share emotional intimacy with potential OW.

Emotional intimacy would be him complaining about me to her, discussing our marriage issue with her. Sharing his feelings. Grooming her to get into her pants like he dos with his ows.

He didn't do that from what I've read. He is offering support for the loss of their dog and offering advice and opinions about their upcoming wedding. Things he could have directed at his brother and not her but she messaged him. Hes responding. I would have preferred he maybe direct her to me for the dress advice and kept my dislike of jewelry to himself.

Why expect fidelity from him at all?

That's a bit much dont ya think, come on. If you're going to always pull out the D card for every hiccup in R. What's the point of any BS ever trying R.

And no I wouldn't leave if I caught him in bed with another ow. He would be leaving (as you said been here a long time. Have done alot outside of SI to protect myself and since he can read here I dont divulge it all). But that isnt what hes done. And I'm fairly confident he wont. He always is accountable for his time. Always makes sure I know where he is and when he will be home. I have full access to his social media, phone.

All I wanted was to know of I was being unreasonable by feeling the messaging with SIL was a bit much. Obviously I'm not unreasonable and I'll proceed accordingly.

Our husbands share “communication retardation”, Dragnheart.

And you and I share the need for them to understand, or “get it“.

I’m not sure that either of those two things are going to change for us or them.

What I have started doing a while back is to just step into the room where he is, speak my peace calmly, as calmly as possible, and clearly. Tell him that he can do with the information what he wants, but that he has had fair warning about what I think of it and how it makes me feel. Whatever my “complaint” might be.

This has worked for me somewhat on two different levels.

Number one, I’m not asking him to have a conversation with me… Which he hates. I’m not asking him to talk about his feelings. I’m not begging him for anything. I’m just stating my case. And it’s his choice whether or not he modifies anything.

And it also helps me a bit. Because I cannot be rejected if I don’t put myself out there.

The only difference… Well there are probably quite a few differences… But the biggest difference between your situation and mine, is that you are young and you have young children. You have many many many more years of your life. And of course you have to determine what you are willing to accept as your life with him. I am in a different boat altogether, I am old, and I am his caregiver.

In some ways, that makes it a bit sadder for me… But in other ways, I have less to lose.

I’m sorry for your predicament.

I know if my husband was doing some thing that was hurtful to me and that I thought was crossing a line, and I shared with him that it was hurtful to me and that he was crossing a line, and he changed nothing… I know I would be withdrawing from him. But to my husband, that’s a relief

Not sure if withdrawing from your husband would have any different result.

😢

DH the thing is here, you seem to to be saying you have an issue with this, but then saying "Oh it's not an issue cus he's not doing sexy talk".

True - talking about a book or a dog or whatever is different than sexy talk - but it is all varying degrees of NOPE when you are dealing with a cheater who has proven he is incapable of setting and holding appropriate boundaries with members of the opposite sex. Today it's dogs. So what happens when SIL wants to go get lunch? Or sends him a risque photo? He has proven to you multiple times now that if that should happen, he will not suddenly grow a pair and say "This isn't okay".

Almost a year ago (7/24/19) I discovered more messages on my exdouche's phone with some other dumb twat that were 'friendly'. We separated 3 days later cus after what he had already done, having any sort of 'friendly' banter with random women was an absolute hell to the fucking NO for me. Period. That was after 9 months of false R, but still. I didn't waste my time splaining to him how it was wrong or why or whatever because he didn't get it, respect it, or give two shits about my feelings. That day when I saw those messages it got me 80% of the way to fuck-this-shit. I went another 19% closer when he was busy sexting with her when he was supposedly there to support me when I put my 16yo pupper to sleep. Those were the final nails in the coffin for me, and I don't owe anyone a damn explanation for where I finally drew my line. And you don't owe anyone justification for having an issue with what your wh is doing because it's some damn bullshit, girl.

I don't know all the ins and out of your particular situation. But I DO know that he will continue to do this to you until you say 'when'. Whether that means staying together and you doing a 180, or D, or actually R'ing, you get to determine here what is okay for you or not.

DH the thing is here, you seem to to be saying you have an issue with this, but then saying "Oh it's not an issue cus he's not doing sexy talk".

No. I am saying HE doesnt see this chatter as "shitting on my boundaries" because it isn't affair talk. (Affair talk being the crap he spewed to his ows)

And I haven't said I am uncomfortable with it. I have not indicated I disprove of the messaging because I felt maybe I was being unreasonable or even jealous.

THATS WHY I POSTED. To clarify FOR ME that what I was feeling given the circumstances was reasonable.

Now I just received a call that theres been an attack in the south field (not my land) it appears to be a bear attack. I'm not ignoring anyone but I do need to step away and deal with farm stuff.

Whatsright I shall address your post when I return.

That's a bit much dont ya think, come on.

Don't you think the cost of fidelity and this dysfunctional cycle of finding out, confronting, thinking he gets it, and finding out again is a bit much to pay when it comes to keeping your dream farm? So why not emotionally separate from him, get a post nup signed in case he ever tries to run off with a future OW, and get a full STD test every so often so that you can live your life in peace no matter what or who he's trying to do? Why not focus all of your energy that you would be spending on the infidelity tap dance and put it on your farm, your kids, and your healing? Because like you said - he crosses the line from EA to PA, the only consequences is that YOU continue on the roller coaster. So what's the point of being the marriage police when he's never going to see the inside of a jail cell?

If you're going to always pull out the D card for every hiccup in R. What's the point of any BS ever trying R.

DH, you are not in R because your WH keeps breaking boundaries, cheating, and acting wayward and that's completely outside of your current issue with the future SIL. There are threads all over the place describing R and what needs to happen before R is possible. If you're not even sure of how many OW there have been, still have big questions from 5 years ago, and just got through a recent fishing attempt on top of this little slippery slope you've found, R has not begun for you because it requires a baseline of truth and for him to STOP all wayward activities including the pictures and videos. His wayward mindset has never stopped. It's not R if he pretends to be good for a few months and then does something wayward. He needs to go through the full transformation and R is him starting that journey. So far he is unwilling to do it.

The options you are being given is a continued limbo where you police your WH and keep finding yourself in these unpleasant situations or you can choose to stay married while working on YOUR healing and YOUR life outside of your WH without concern to what he is doing because being involved is painful, exhausting, and not leading to results in the way of R.

[This message edited by nekonamida at 3:11 PM, July 21st (Tuesday)]

Oh, God!

I hope everything’s ok.

BE CAREFUL!!!

I dont feel we entered into R (both of us working towards a new marriage) until just a couple years ago. After the bbq we had here. So your partly correct. No it hasn't been perfect but it's been better than those early years.

R to me is making the decision to move forward together to create a new marriage, each with our own IC to manage our individual issues and eventually MC to work on the marriage as a whole. That doesnt mean hes going to NOT be wayward and I'm going to be totally healed right from the get go.

WH and I went to MC first. Before I found SI we made many mistakes.

I have had IC. He did for a while. Again he hasn't continued due to not finding a male IC which is what I demand. So not at all his fault. Theres no damn male ones up our way.

The fact that i have questions this many years out is a reflection of our different views of how we each define infidelity and how that definition has evolved since the first affair (I had never heard of EA before SI). It also is why I posted. Him talking to his sister in law about the death of a dog and marriage plans isnt exactly "cheating" in my view. Slippery slope yes and confirmed as being so. But if he defines cheating as penis in vagina or blow job and I define cheating as of course physical contact but also anything he hides from me or contact that I view as threatening or slippery then it's no wonder he and I butt heads on boundaries.

He doesnt even know I have read the messages between them or that I'm bothered about it.

And wouldn't it be counterproductive for me to go off all bat shit crazy over something perhaps innocent because of my own insecurities?

I said I have done alot outside of SI to protect myself. You've mentioned it. I'm not going further with those details but rest assured IF he has a PA the marriage will end. I do not believe he would make that choice again as he is aware of this. I'm not going to D over a slippery slope when he doesnt even realize that's what it is.

I guess he and I disagree on what defines an EA.

Today it's dogs. So what happens when SIL wants to go get lunch? Or sends him a risque photo? He has proven to you multiple times now that if that should happen, he will not suddenly grow a pair and say "This isn't okay"

I dont see where you get the "proven multiple times now that if that should happen he will not suddenly grow a pair and say this isnt ok" part. How do you know he hasn't had such a situation, grown a pair and said it isnt ok in the almost ten years since his last PA? In fact he has had risque photos sent to him and a woman attempt to get his attention. This woman was "making the rounds" at his current job. His response was to not only shut it down but expose her and the affair she was having with one of the guys he worked with. He also told me.

I feel confident that if SIL crosses that line that he will shut it down.

Perhaps I need to update my tag line.

I have no proof of any PA after ow2. Ow 1 was heavy petting and alot of sex talk. He admitted to a third ow, as in PA, when drunk so take that with a grain of salt... and then later said the 4th was all talk of wanting to have sex but they never acted on it. All of these ows were co workers. I say number 5 referring to the one who sent him the happy birthday and who he sent a happy birthday to. I have no proof. He denies they were anything but co workers.

Once he no longer worked there he had no access or opportunity for a PA. In the couple years after he left that job he was into the online stuff, looking at porn, looking for a happy ending massage, replying to personal ads. Nothing actually happened due to being unavailable...if you need proof of that I'll discuss it in private but ya he wasnt available lol.

Things started to come around after I did get the D papers.

I'm mentally exhausted today. To much damn stress and that's not even related to this thread. I need a bath and some wine.

A cow was killed not far from our fence line. They suspect bear. Could be cougar. Even pack of coyotes. Still dont know what left the Mark's on my mare. Now stressed a bit more.

I'm sorry Whatsright I didn't reply to you.

Our husbands share “communication retardation”, Dragnheart.

Isnt that the truth. He always sees us "talking" as an attack on him even when it has nothing to do with the affairs. He takes offence to everything. Ugh!

And you and I share the need for them to understand, or “get it“.

Not so much a need as a "how the hell cant you get this shit" thing.

I’m not sure that either of those two things are going to change for us or them.

Doubtful lol

What I have started doing a while back is to just step into the room where he is, speak my peace calmly, as calmly as possible, and clearly. Tell him that he can do with the information what he wants, but that he has had fair warning about what I think of it and how it makes me feel. Whatever my “complaint” might be.

I tried this approach last night.

Wanted to just speak my mind. He first took offence to the idea of having an A with SIL, saying "ewe". To which I pointed out ow2. In complete detail...told him he never cared what she looked like he only wanted access to her vagina.

Of course he started off on a tangent about something completely different. Saying that if I want him to do things then he expects me to do things for him. Tit for tat. I said it didn't work that way with regards to his cheating, made clear my position on the subject of sil the walked away.

I'm keeping communication to a minimum for now.

The AC repair guy came. It's a simple fix but he didn't have the part in his truck. He'll be back later today or tomorrow.

Kids and I got all thr recycling out. I'm trying to clean the kitchen. Or well the part of the kitchen wh refers to as my office...

I'm tired, very sore and have absolutely no motivation to even bother with this crap but I've already made a bit of a mess and cant cook dinner until I finish. So ... I did find my glasses that had broken (been using my old ones) fixed the frame, put the lens in. Now I have to sand down a part of the arm that keeps catching my hair when I put them on and I'll be seeing good again lol.

The kids are supposed to be helping me clean house before Saturday when my family is coming up for a belated birthday party for DD, ds and my mom. Kids are playing a very old video game and they arent listening to me. Time to go take the whole damn thing away. I shall be now known as the "mean mom".

Kinda the way wh sees me when I want to "talk".

Wh was showing me a video on his phone when future SIL sent him a message. We finished the video then he opened up and read it.

Again wedding related. The whole thing is now turning into a family feud.

Despite her saying "dont tell anyone" wh read the message to me. Not sure she meant me specifically, most likely other members of his family since it seems this is going to blow up family relationships lol

I understand the reason for asking wh opinion THIS TIME but I still told him it should be his brother messaging him, not her.

For now I need to 180 wh on this issue especially because I've got a family gathering with my family happening tomorrow and the house still isnt ready, two horses I have to put meds on, new information from our genetics team that's raised my stress level tenfold and four naked ducks and one goose and I dont know why! (Naked cat ok. Naked Guinea pig ok, Chinese crested dog so mostly naked ok BUT NAKED DUCKS AND GEESE ARE NOT OK!!!).