SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

There are some very enlightened people posting in this thread. They have compassionate hearts and want to do right by others. The rest want to do whatever they want to do and have no desire to make any adjustments, even out of respect for others (which they only have provided these people agree with them).

When you go to IC or MC, you are taught to be willing to stand up for your feelings and to respect the feelings of others. Pretty much everything comes back to this, and you learn to trust your gut and balance everything. "Be clear. Use 'I feel' language. Explain how you feel when they do this and how it hurts."

All of that has been tried here and failed. Just like in the bad old days with my H, if I brought up how something made me feel, he spent all his time trying to convince me that I was overreacting. His primary goal was A. to not look at himself or change, and B. to be right so that his self-esteem didn't take a hit. My feelings didn't matter to him at all. Yes, he would definitely throw back in my face, "But what about MY feelings? I enjoy drinking/doing nothing/yelling at the kids/being crabby/whatever. What about MY needs?" Just like then, the only option now is to make note of this stance and disengage entirely from the people who need to win on this. There's really no option. They have been very clear that their wants are more important than whoever might be bothered by their disrespectful behavior.

I think they have good intentions for filling in their own blanks.

That's nice, Hikingout. I wish that I felt all posters were motivated by good intentions toward others, but that assumes that everyone here is posting to benefit others and not themselves. While frequently true, that is definitely not always the case. Many are here to share, to air their grievances, to grapple with tough emotions that don't get neatly dealt with in real life. I do feel that their emotions can dictate "If others get caught in the crossfire, oh well!"

Thank god that most people disagree with the really harsh language toward WWs and their BH. My faith in the compassion of humanity lives on through those many wise, kind posters. Compassion is not a dirty word; it's actually the answer to almost everything.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 4:20 PM, August 12th (Wednesday)]

Fareast, I agree with your synopsis on this thread.

At the end of the day, it should make anyone who has spent some time here, to remember back on how much pain you were in upon discovering the person you loved and trusted was betraying you.

Searching for answers, finding SI, desperately looking for a lifeline, and not just needing wisdom but hopefully a friend.

They may need a kick in the ass down the line, but initially what they need is some love, understanding, and encouragement.

Thanks for reminding everyone of this CT!!

Use google’s extended search to look for the terms you ask about on this site.

Awesome! How did I know it was gonna be me? The person I called cumdumpster was the OW in my sitch. I never told a BH his ww was a cumdumpster or any other name. It is up to the BS to call names of their own spouse. I sometimes ask if I can call their spouse a name, though. I also have never called a WW on this site trying to understand and heal themselves a cumdumpster.

@Thumos, glad you think my description is an artful term. I have no idea were I got it from (or whom). I had never heard the term before SI so naturally never said it. I also never said the other "C" four letter word before I was betrayed.

OMG! I loved ❤️ reading that first thread right now that showed up in google. I was reminded of old friends that are no longer here and how much I loved them all. I will have to read the other threads later.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 8:29 PM, August 12th (Wednesday)]

I posted my JFO on another board. And, wow, did I get a WAKE UP call from the men there. Plenty of "dude, she's lying, she f**ked him six ways from Sunday" and "I guarantee you she was a freak with him" and "Loved every inch of him" and plenty of the same stuff that often gets thrown at BHs here. You know what? While hard to read at the time, I'll say 2 things. First, and most importantly, nearly EVERY thing they said turned out to be true, confirmed by my W under intense interrogation. And second, thank God they helped me prepare for it because I don't know what I would have done if I hadn't had the foresight to realize that "One time, with a condom, and it sucked" was about as close to the real answer as "I have a unicorn I'd like to sell you". How could they know? Why did they do it? Well, they knew because A's follow a pattern, a pattern I should have recognized from men I knew who had them, but it's a very easy pattern. If they were alone, they had sex, right? Well, that applies to lots of "A things". And why did they do it? I think they did it to prepare me for the reality of what was coming. It was like the "ding" on an airplane indicating to put on your seatbelt, because it's about to get rough.

To be fair, I feel the way you do about this for me personally. This happened to me when I posted on a drug addiction site when my XWH first came home high on crack. I was so precious and innocent back then, "just one time, he'll get it back together, we really have a beautiful life" and so on. The reality that got thrown into my face by those who had been through this was brutal. And, 100% right on. There's a playbook for that stuff too, and every addict seems to follow it religiously. That kind of brutality prepared me for the lies about the cheating when I discovered it. I took not one bit at face value and I uncovered the mountain I feared. For you and I both, the worst case scenario turned out to be absolutely real. I have huge gratitude for everyone who kept it 100% brutal and real with that precious version of me on that other site. Thanks to those people, he got one more time coming home high before he was kicked out and I changed the locks. I knew not to listen to his words and tears. Once I got here, I remember even calling out one of our most blunt posters here, NoMercy, to come and give me some truth blasts one day when I was feeling emotional. This tactic is what I need, but I am me. I am not everyone.

This kind of blunt advice was helpful to you and to me, but I'm betting it's not universally helpful. I don't want to be gently led into painful truths. I just want the truths so that I can make real decisions. Not everyone has that kind of personality. Some people just run away when that kind of bluntness is thrown at them because they just are not able to take it in at that moment and it doesn't seem to reflect their reality. They didn't show up to be dashed with cold water. They showed up to be held in empathetic arms and that is a damned good reason to be here. Yes, the painful reality will be discovered, but they will have been here long enough and made enough friends to handle it with support at that time.

That's nice, Hikingout. I wish that I felt all posters were motivated by good intentions toward others, but that assumes that everyone here is posting to benefit others and not themselves.

Hmmm. I do think it is in my personality to believe people do the best they can, even if their best disappointments me. I do recognize that some of the more vitriol comments on this site - male or female is a product of being unhealed or stuck in anger. But I think even then they are telling bs what they Believe is in their best interests. Men are often simply more comfortable with anger than sadness - and of that helps them they feel it will help the guy they are trying to advise. I think we have more men than women who feel divorce is the only way through. They feel they wish they pushed the button sooner and they want to pass that feeling along to the next guy. My husband would tell you that divorce is a faster/easier way through,

Every single poster here only has their own perspective that is deeply influenced by what they experienced. When I read one male saying all the terrible things to the other male - I see a man who wants to push the other guy to the lifeboat of anger faster. It’s misguided maybe but well intentioned in most cases. I do believe most of our posters here are doing the best they can, even if I would like them to be more aware and raise the bar. Some probably do hate women based on

Their experience just like I find we get a bw here once in a while that has grown to hate men because of the many times they have been burned.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:53 PM, August 12th (Wednesday)]

Do we assume the harsh or crude language is the cause of BHs not returning or is there a lot of hard evidence of this?

Is it speculation or has someone followed up with any of them? I would think there are myriad reasons some BHs leave. Maybe they are totally satisfied with the responses and need nothing further. Maybe they feel the postersxare going too easy on their WWs, so they head for another site, like the unmentionable one.

I am sure there may be some BHs that have given feedback about their motivation for wanting to leave. Is it always that their WW was vilified too much?

I really loved my XW( although she was so mean and abusive to me while she was cheating the love was somewhat diminished). But, I do BM ot believe it would have bothered me in the least if folks piled on her. It would have validated my impression of what she had become. I cannot see it running me off.

Do we assume the harsh or crude language is the cause of BHs not returning or is there a lot of hard evidence of this?

Is it speculation or has someone followed up with any of them? I would think there are myriad reasons some BHs leave. Maybe they are totally satisfied with the responses and need nothing further. Maybe they feel the postersxare going too easy on their WWs, so they head for another site, like the unmentionable one.

I am sure there may be some BHs that have given feedback about their motivation for wanting to leave. Is it always that their WW was vilified too much?

I really loved my XW( although she was so mean and abusive to me while she was cheating the love was somewhat diminished). But, I do BM ot believe it would have bothered me in the least if folks piled on her. It would have validated my impression of what she had become. I cannot see it running me off.

Wow.

Well, Stinger, I guess you got me there. By all means, just say whatever you want to whomever you want in whichever manner you wish to phrase it, because it really is all about you.

I don't consider myself part of the BTW crowd. I don't get vulgar or crude. I will say things like, "if they were together they had sex 99.99% positive" or something like that.

That said I find it odd that BWs object to any BTW-ing being done. I haven't and will never care how much a BW thread turns into a "burn the bastard"-fest.

This happened to me when I posted on a drug addiction site when my XWH first came home high on crack. I was so precious and innocent back then, "just one time, he'll get it back together, we really have a beautiful life" and so on. The reality that got thrown into my face by those who had been through this was brutal. And, 100% right on. There's a playbook for that stuff too, and every addict seems to follow it religiously. That kind of brutality prepared me for the lies about the cheating when I discovered it. I took not one bit at face value and I uncovered the mountain I feared. For you and I both, the worst case scenario turned out to be absolutely real. I have huge gratitude for everyone who kept it 100% brutal and real with that precious version of me on that other site. Thanks to those people, he got one more time coming home high before he was kicked out and I changed the locks. I knew not to listen to his words and tears. Once I got here, I remember even calling out one of our most blunt posters here, NoMercy, to come and give me some truth blasts one day when I was feeling emotional. This tactic is what I need, but I am me. I am not everyone.

Well, Dee, you nailed this one. And while I don't mention it often, I also have experience with what you're talking about, and I think a lot of that has colored my views on this. But the moment you set foot into AlAnon or any support group for those who love the addicted, there's very little "coddling" or "nice smelling roses". People in those rooms know what they are dealing with, in nearly all cases, it's the same story, neatly summed up as "your dealing with someone who's operating as a sociopath, will say/do anything to keep their drugs/drink going and you have to be ready for that". There's simply no "nice" way to put it.

And you know what? Having been through that and an A, I can say, at least for me, the behavior of my W during the A was MUCH worse than that of the addicted. The addicted are on a path of destruction, but it's directed primarily at themselves, everyone around them gets hurt, of course, but it's mostly just splash from the hurt they are causing themselves, not "direct hurt". It's not like you get a hangover when your H drinks too much, they do, they're the ones that suffer, you suffer by proxy.

With affairs, it's completely reversed, they drink, YOU get the hangover. They party it up, smoke crack all night, and you're the one who fails the drug test at work and gets fired. If drink/drug addicts are sociopathic, well, affairs are psychopathic, they cross the line from "not caring who gets hurt" to "actively doing things to hurt those who love you". If there are degrees between the two, at least for me, the A was much worse.

But, as it sounds like you've been in the rooms, I'm sure you know, "talking nice" isn't even on the scoreboard when dealing with active addicts. The rules are basically, detach, draw up ultimatums, if they aren't met boot the addict, and if they want help to get clean after booting, help them. But ONLY to get clean, anything else, sleep as soundly as you can in your bed while they sleep under a car outside a bar somewhere. This is the life they choose for themselves, you don't need to, and you shouldn't "pretty it up" for them, or "find the right words". In fact, they usually advise the opposite, being as direct as possible and quickly as possible to get the lines drawn.

When people come in like you did Dee, the "oh, it's not really a problem" or "My H/W isn't "that bad"" or some other "blinders on" message, they are always treated to a heaping dose of reality. Even if it's not "that bad" yet for you personally, IT WILL BE, just let it progress. Because it's very predictable, as are affairs, to where it's going and what's going to happen at the conclusion of this thing. Sure, my girlfriend hadn't yet prostituted herself for drugs, BUT SHE WILL at some point, so you might as well ready yourself for it now. And everyone who's dealing with that got "I'd never do that" for years before finding out "Yes, I did that".

That's kind of the "BTW" group here. We've seen where this leads, and we know that put into these situations, awful things are likely to happen. There's no "pretty version" of an A (although Hollywood tries hard to build one). It's an ugly thing, and if your personal affair situation isn't as "ugly" as mine, well, good for you, but it would have been if enough time had passed. You've been discarded and devalued, to what level, IDK, but to what level it was likely to go, I do know (with reasonably likelihood), because it follows a pattern.

. I haven't and will never care how much a BW thread turns into a "burn the bastard"-fest.

Me either. And there's probably something here about gender differences; more collective vs everyone for themselves, but it's interesting. When we have our other favorite conversation, sexual stuff for the AP but not the BS, it's almost all BW's who are "siding" with the WW who's withholding things from their BH. I've often wondered, with that topic, if a WH posted "I did this for my AP, but don't want to do it for my BW", what the responses would be. I can't see any BH supporting him in that, in fact, I kind of see myself as "first in line" with the pitchfork to rip that guy to shreds. I almost never even post on WH threads because I simply have nothing to say to them beyond "You made your bed, lie in it" no matter how bad their situation is. I get a kind of "kick" out of seeing BW's say things like "He's cut off from sex forever"; even though, in that particular case, I will often reach out to them and say that while a reasonable response, it's unlikely to work (and also, why would they do that to themselves; sure, cut him off sounds like "karma" to me, but what about you??). Probably because I simply can't understand the lack of desire/drive for sex that some people have compared to me, but that would be as clear a "cut off nose to spite face" as I could possibly imagine personally.

I'll close this by looping back to the BH who laid down the "BJ or walk home" ultimatum here and was ripped to shreds by basically everyone, BH/WH/BW/WW. Even though I defended him more than most, I still wonder, where does this come from? Why were other BH's piling on and ripping this guy to shreds, defending his wife, calling rape, etc. I mean, when I see a story of a BW burning the WH's clothes in the front yard, my first reaction is "do you have pictures and will you share", not "what the hell is wrong with you?!". I've never seen a "punishment" for a WH talked about here that doesn't, in one way or another, warm my heart a little bit. I really don't care what you do to him, because, your WH, that guy, he's my W's AP! He's the person who caused me all this pain and suffering. He deserves whatever you dish out, run him through the cleaners in court, call his work and get him fired, leave him destitute and unable to see his kids. I really don't care, because that's what he deserves for what he did to me (by f**king my W) and you. Don't like it, well, that's really too bad, but the punishment fits the crime. It's not like people don't know, going into an A, that this is a likely outcome. And I feel like the harsher we deal with WH's the more of them will do the math and think "this is just not worth it" and, well, stop chasing my wife around like slab of meat in the office. Win for me, win for their BW's, and win for society in general if we could punish harshly enough to get them to stop f**king doing it.

The only real line I draw for WH's is false DV claims, I can't and won't support that. But I'm fine with any legal actions taken, any amount of "pressure" applied to them to get what the BW wants, and really any consequences at all from their actions. Don't like the price, don't play the game. And yet, even I, probably a founding member of the BTW club, don't feel that way AT ALL about WW's. I'm sure this is my sexism showing itself in perhaps the clearest light possible, but I often find myself siding with/feeling sorry for/defending WW's, including, of course, my own.

I’d like to make it very clear why I’ve posted here.

I could give less than a rat’s ass about coddling an active Or remorseless WS or AP.

I care very much about newly betrayed spouses who are bleeding out and need a safe place to recover. And the way that certain posters come and swarm to give their “advice” which is made up of crude language that seems intended to shock and pronouncements of what is absolutely certain or true (in that poster’s opinion)

If I had an accident and sustained a deep laceration to my leg with lots of damage to the circulation and tissue there are several approaches. The ER team could wash it out with antiseptic, use no anesthesia, probe around a while and then amputate my leg and sew up the stump, all without anesthesia. Or they could administer pain medication, explore the wound as gently as possible (still causing pain, but mitigating that effect as much as possible) and perform surgery under anesthesia. Maybe the leg can be repaired and saved. Maybe I’d still need it amputated.

I’d always choose option B.

I'll close this by looping back to the BH who laid down the "BJ or walk home" ultimatum here and was ripped to shreds by basically everyone, BH/WH/BW/WW. Even though I defended him more than most, I still wonder, where does this come from? Why were other BH's piling on and ripping this guy to shreds, defending his wife, calling rape, etc. I mean, when I see a story of a BW burning the WH's clothes in the front yard, my first reaction is "do you have pictures and will you share", not "what the hell is wrong with you?!". I've never seen a "punishment" for a WH talked about here that doesn't, in one way or another, warm my heart a little bit. I really don't care what you do to him, because, your WH, that guy, he's my W's AP! He's the person who caused me all this pain and suffering. He deserves whatever you dish out, run him through the cleaners in court, call his work and get him fired, leave him destitute and unable to see his kids. I really don't care, because that's what he deserves for what he did to me (by f**king my W) and you. Don't like it, well, that's really too bad, but the punishment fits the crime. It's not like people don't know, going into an A, that this is a likely outcome. And I feel like the harsher we deal with WH's the more of them will do the math and think "this is just not worth it" and, well, stop chasing my wife around like slab of meat in the office. Win for me, win for their BW's, and win for society in general if we could punish harshly enough to get them to stop f**king doing it.

Did you just say the punishment that fits the crime of an affair is rape? And that rape is anything like burning someone's clothes on the front lawn?

Dude.

I will tell you what - the punishment can meet the crime because if someone raped me no matter what the motives I would do what I could to land their ass in jail. Noone deserves to be raped.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:00 AM, August 13th (Thursday)]

If I had an accident and sustained a deep laceration to my leg with lots of damage to the circulation and tissue there are several approaches.

Yes, but I believe your setting up a false equivalency. See, the damage is already done. The more correct analogy, you wheel into the ER and the docs take one of 2 approaches; "You're gonna be fine, just a flesh wound, you'll be playing ball again next week" or "This is very serious, the leg almost certainly has to come off to save your life, and, even then, your chances aren't that great". In both cases, they are actively preparing an amputation and the ER for your arrival afterwards, they know they're going to almost certainly amputate the leg, and that your hold on life in tenuous.

I, for one, much prefer the 2nd approach. I want to know I might die and my life is in danger and that, even if I don't there's a good chance I'll wake up without a leg than the "Oh, you'll be fine RIO, just a scratch".

But, even that equivalency is false because, in that case, the outcome is entirely out of your control. Thing is, if a BS get's "snapped out of it" by some straight talk, there's a chance they can save their own leg! Giving them the "soft version" may lead them to think "Ahh, it'll be fine, just limp around for a bit" where what they really need to do is get to the OR immediately. Putting on rose colored glasses when the survival of the "patient" (marriage) depends on them having a realistic view of the damage, likely outcomes and likely issues is, well, certainly NOT what I wanted.

If I wanted the "rosy version" of my W's A, I could have just accepted her first "version" of the truth. I didn't. I wanted THE TRUTH and eventually got it. Unsurprisingly, many posters had "the truth" before me about my wife though, because, well, they had the benefit of having seen it before. They knew from my TT version that this was a hugely serious wound, and they helped me prepare for the moment the doc actually said "You're probably going to die" by explaining to me what I was likely to face. And for that, I'm grateful.

Is it speculation or has someone followed up with any of them?

I have been told numerous times by BH since I have been there the following:

I can't post this because people keep saying how weak I am for staying.

I don't want to post this because they just call my wife a whore and remind me of x, y, z.

I can't say this because they will pile on me about this and I just can't deal with it right now.

All these BH are usually within the first 8 months of their dday. I have had two write during this thread and say "This is exactly right but I can't post in there and say".

So, no it is not an assumption on my part.

That said I find it odd that BWs object to any BTW-ing being done. I haven't and will never care how much a BW thread turns into a "burn the bastard"-fest.

I don't find it odd. There are BW's here who are not ready to hear some harsh shit either. This is not about the roasting of a WH or a WW, this is about the mental state of the BS. If you felt that a woman here was struggling because everyone was piling on and saying "Well, you know he just couldn't wait to fuck her, and he probably did it multiple times a night, and it's probably because he was more attracted to the AP".....I think you would feel badly for that woman. Again, I think the intention of the thread is to say - hey we are a little too hard sometimes on these new BH's. Maybe knock off making assumptions we don't know if are true, and making very vulgar references to his wife. Help him get strong, but keep it to the facts and maybe consider leaving vulgarity alone. I don't think that's a problem to ask of that? Maybe some will be more conscious of it as we move forward?

I choose to generally mix honesty with some form of compassion.

I am glad to hear this, but my post was not about you specifically, Thurmos. Sorry if I hit a nerve.

But it cannot be taken at face value that "honesty without compassion is hostility.”

Why not? It is an OPINION. You may not choose to accept this as it appears, but I have found it to be true. It is certainly important for me to remember that honesty can be weaponized.

This is yet another untested bromide and there are various versions

You are saying here that what I said is trite and unimaginative. That is not compassionate, although may be true. Not sure what the obsession is about basing every statement on research and resultant statistics. This has been an intermittent theme in your arguments, Thumos, and is often used in a pejorative manner, yet you yourself say things that are not based on “testing”/evidence.

Yes, there are various versions. Does this make the ideology behind the statement wrong in some way?

"honesty without compassion is cruelty" "honesty without compassion is brutality" etc. It's one of those things that sounds good on the surface, but doesn't really mean much.

Disagree. To me, this is arguing for the sake of argument. I understand that you are not a fan of unspecific and generalized language (untested bromides, lol), but you are making my point here. In all of the substitutions that you have made for the word “hostility”, it continues to be NEGATIVE for those who experience it, which is actually my POINT.

Honesty is just honesty. The truth is just the truth.

This is also an untested bromide, as you so eloquently put it. It seems oversimplified as well.

The JIm Carrey movie Liar Liar has fun with the idea of unfiltered honesty, but it's important to keep in mind that the 'hero" was a compulsive liar before, so an antidote to this condition was the opposite for a time (side note: the movie includes a painful infidelity subplot in which a WW is able to rip the children out of the BH's arms and gain custody).

This movie is an example of IRONY. Again, makes my point that unfiltered honesty is inappropriate.

And by the way, is it hostility, brutality or cruelty. They aren't always synonymous.

I never said they were.

perhaps a better formulation would be "honesty pronounced without an intent of malice is a social good.”

YES!! Not sure why it took so much verbiage to get here, but that is, in essence, my point. Thanks for the edit.

RIO, I’m in a hurry and don’t have time to quote. You still misunderstand me.

To use your example, the doctor could come in and say, “Oh, wow! You are fucked!!!!! That leg is never gonna be okay even if we manage to save it!! Omg! That is the worst leg wound I have ever seen!” And then he could go back to the desk and tell the story, after which 8 or 10 other doctors come in to look and give their various opinions of how fucked I am. Meanwhile I continue to hemorrhage.

Or the doctor can come in and say, “HF, I’m not sure we are going to be able to save that leg. It looks very bad and the circulation is compromised. In wounds similar to this, the majority I’ve seen have developed an infection or the limb just couldn’t survive so we may be looking at amputation. Do you have any questions?”

Can you really not see the difference there?

Or the doctor can come in and say, “HF, I’m not sure we are going to be able to save that leg. It looks very bad and the circulation is compromised. In wounds similar to this, the majority I’ve seen have developed an infection or the limb just couldn’t survive so we may be looking at amputation. Do you have any questions?”

Completely on board with this as the "better" response. What I'm not on board with is obscuring or "softening" what's likely to be the truth. "She's full of s**t when she says she "had to" f**k him" to keep the A going, it's far more likely she enjoyed it and looked forward to it". That's more my approach, don't put people into the darkness/lies, but, don't go "SHE LOVED EVERY INCH" (even if that's also likely true, but needlessly inflammatory).

[This message edited by Rideitout at 8:49 AM, August 13th (Thursday)]

We can take it even further. The doctor and the medical staff all come in together, form a line and one by one yell as loudly as they can “Oh, wow! You are fucked!!!!! That leg is never gonna be okay even if we manage to save it!! Omg! That is the worst leg wound I have ever seen!” even before it’s been determined the leg is the problem…

OK Ladies. What I am going to do here is tell you that men (I am one) have a distinctly different way of conveying ideas. We are BLUNT and CRUDE as hell in the locker room or in male conflicts.

I was in a boardroom giving a status report to the president of the company, and one established managers at the meeting was trying to talk over me and belittle me and my presentation. I turned to him and said, either be respectful and keep ANY questions or comments till the end OR we WILL go outside to discuss your problem and then I will return and complete the presentation. So I physically threatened the man to stop his interruptions. I probably should have been at least reprimanded and probably fired but neither of those things happened and the manager sat down and shut up!

I'm sure that EVERYONE would have told me not to do it BUT it worked and nobody had ever been able to shut him up in a meeting before.

We only get "civilized" when women are present (normally). The thing I was trying to point out is that a MAN'S communication style is VASTLY different than a woman's.

So lot of the times we NEED to see how bad something can be and polite little phrases just don't make the impact that some well placed "crudity" will make.

JMO YMMV

This kind of blunt advice was helpful to you and to me, but I'm betting it's not universally helpful. I don't want to be gently led into painful truths. I just want the truths so that I can make real decisions.

I don't know if we're getting too far off the rails from the original post here, but I have to say, this seems pretty accurate to me. I know in my first JFO thread, I really needed to hear some important truths because the world of infidelity was new and incomprehensible to me. At first, for example, it wouldn't have crossed my mind that my wife had had sex with her AP - I was that clueless! I needed someone to tell me that it most likely had happened. And I needed to be informed asap about at least 10 other important things.

Bluntness saved my life. No joke.

I seriously would advise everyone to read my first thread - it is an absolute goldmine of perfect approaches to a reeling BS who's doing everything wrong, imo. The first page is honestly a work of art.

On the other hand, there is a type of "bluntness" that I find just a waste of time (at best). These are the posts that come early in a person's first thread and simply shout direction at them.

"Brother, how will you EVER respect your wife again?? This marriage is OVER. Get a lawyer, file the papers immediately and RUN don't walk away from this woman. Wishing you all the best."

or:

"Dude, order a poly NOW. EXPOSE this shit to EVERYONE. Call her BOSS. Tell her PARENTS. Hire a P.I. BLOW UP her world!"

It isn't that these posters are wrong...it's just that there's pretty much no way that this type of directive can even be processed by a brand-new BS. Most humans have never contemplated ordering a polygraph for any reason, ever - it's like something out of a spy movie.

They don't understand where you're coming from; there's no context, no clear explanation as to why these things are important and why it applies to *them*. At best, the new BS will get a sinking feeling in their gut after reading a post like this and then move on to a different post that is more helpful. At worst, they will stop posting (I have no thread I can point to as proof of this, but having been here for years, I have plenty of experience with a BS making a single post and never returning; I'm sure there are many reasons for that.)

In the end, most brand-new BSes need help wrapping their heads around most/all of the following basics (and not just *told*):

1. Losing your partner is not as bad as sharing your partner.

2. They probably had sex.

3. The A is probably ongoing.

4. There is probably way more to the A than you know.

5. Your WS is following a well-established pattern that is not very unique or special.

5. There are basically two healthy ways to move forward.

6. There are things you can start doing to improve your situation, and *you* have to do them.

7. Those things are counterintuitive but necessary.

8. Your WS cannot be trusted.

Once they have truly come to understand these things, then they can move forward in a way that really works for them.

Notice that there is nothing outlined above (imo) that includes the need to hear that you're a cuck, your wife is a whore, your balls are in a jar on the kitchen counter, etc.

The real art of it all comes in effectively getting a person to see and understand these things. "Dude, FILE THE PAPERS TOMORROW" accomplishes none of that. It's like shouting into the wind.

~

This is all secondary to the insulting language. Personally, when a poster who I really respect alluded to the fact that I could accept being a cuckold if I didn't want to lose my wife, it was eye-opening in a very good way for me. It helped me to read that.

Still, I can consider it's possible that it would have haunted me if I had ended up in a real reconciliation attempt. Since I believe reconciliation can be a good option in the right circumstances, and since I know many BSes end up in a reconciliation, and since I've heard from enough people that they don't like being called a cuckold, I don't use that term here anymore *even though it helped me* back in the day. I'm smart enough to figure out other ways to get my point across, and I think most people here generally are.

In my opinion, the same goes for other insults we're kinda discussing here. I think if you're good, you can avoid insulting anyone, BS and WS alike, and still be just as jarring and just as effective if that's what you're going for.

~

I'll close this by looping back to the BH who laid down the "BJ or walk home" ultimatum here and was ripped to shreds by basically everyone, BH/WH/BW/WW. Even though I defended him more than most, I still wonder, where does this come from? Why were other BH's piling on and ripping this guy to shreds, defending his wife, calling rape, etc.

Because it is rape, or close to it. If that woman wanted to, she could go to the police, get a lawyer, explain the situation, and have a pretty damn good sexual assault case to bring to court. It is at best sexual coercion.

I'll admit I don't know the thread and haven't read it - I've only got the secondary accounts here.

But that situation sounds absolutely awful, and the guy should have been called out on it.

I don't care what your WS has done; if you've gotten to a point where you're making a demand like that and forcing them to choose between their safety/well-being or doing something sexual, you have gone too far. That goes for women and men.

You need a divorce instead.

[This message edited by Okokok at 10:04 AM, August 13th (Thursday)]

But Candyman, if men are the ones having a problem with this approach, how do you explain that? This isn't about women being supposedly too delicate to hear harsh words.