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GoldenR:

I respectfully disagree. You mischaracterize the posts on this thread. Not one poster defended the WW’s infidelity. No one.

The OP asked for responses whether others with experience could shed light on whether his WW could possibly be telling the truth about one aspect of her ONS. The sexual experience. No one defended her intentions or that she deliberately pursued the infidelity. She cheated. Period.

But several women did share that based on their personal experiences it is possible the OP’s WW is telling the truth about the sex. They responded and answered the OP’s question. They didn’t have to share with him. They could have remained quiet. They could have lied to the OP. For me, this is what makes this site so valuable to the OP. People willing to share and respond to an OP honestly even if it means that by doing so, it opens up the possibility that a WS might be telling the truth. Sorry you found it unbelievable. People with that type of commitment and integrity to share honestly with the OP should be celebrated.

Fareast -

That's fair. Possible? Sure. Likely? Not by a long shot. Thinking that someone that did everything she could to get alone with the OM in her room, then showered and sat next to him on the bed in nothing but a robe, believing they didn't want to do it and didn't enjoy it is so, so far out there. It's doing OP a disservice to suggest such.

So again....possible? Yep? It's also possible that my numbers will hit on the mega millions tonight.

Never seen so many people here defend a WS, much less a WS that went to a lot of trouble with elaborate lies and planned way in advance to cheat, and then cheated.

For the record, I don't feel anyone was defending the WS. The OP asked if it was possible that what she was saying about not enjoying the sex could be true. Many women felt that it could be true, but none of us said it was true or that it couldn't be a lie.

And, none of us believe she didn't know what was going to happen. We don't have people come up in our hotel rooms, take a shower and come out in a robe. On this point I think everyone agrees.

What we defended against were the posters who were all "she is lying", because we don't know. We should never tell people to R, to D, and we should never make claims to know whether something is true or not. What he was saying sounded plausible to the women and not to the men. I understand people want others not to fall for shit and want to be protective of them, but we can't jump to every conclusion either. Like someone else said, we are talking about the breaking up of a family. This group is not a polygraph test.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:55 AM, November 12th (Thursday)]

Golden..my friend..I think you know me better than that. I tend to be pretty cynical. As I clearly said, nothing I wrote was in defense of his wife. He asked if her telling him that once the sex started, it was awful and traumatic..could possibly be true. And he was answered.

He knows she went to a lot of trouble to see him. He knows she behaved as if she wanted it. Because she did want it. None of that is in question. So I'm not sure why the men here feel the need to keep telling everyone that if she did all of that, the sex must have rocked her world.

I think this might boil down to the many many many threads we have here about gender differences. Men seem to think even bad sex is good sex. Some have said as much in this thread. For women, many of them, that's not true.

Not one thing this ww did was ok. None of it. If the sex was bad, then the sex was bad. She shouldn't have been there in the first place. That wasn't his question. He asked if the sex could have been horrible. The answer is a resounding yes.

I've seen no one say what she did was ok.

After reading a few of the comments from some of the women here on SI on this (especially from HellFire) and speaking to my wife about this I'm not as steadfast in my opinion.

So even though she claims it was "traumatic" I guess as crazy as it sounds it's possible she could have gone to dinner with him afterwards.

OP in one of your recent posts you claimed she said "yet she still adamantly sticks to her story that it was HORRIBLE from start to finish".

A few questions.

When did you find about this ONS?

How did you find out about this?

I guess what I'm trying to sort out here is the experience being horrible (which I can certainly wrap my mind around) but her also claiming it was "traumatic" for her.

As I said I guess anything is possible but could it be that the ONS was (as you claim she said) "horrible" but her being "traumatized" by it came afterwards (the next day, days/weeks/months later when she looked back on what she had done, planned and executed, and what she had done to you?

OP when did she use the word "traumatic"?

Was it in her initial confession? Or did it come later when discussing it?

The reason I ask is given that she had a history with this guy (her ex) and that she planned this entire lying/cheating fantasy out there's a part of me that wonders if she is using the word "traumatic" to lighten her betrayal and actions and thus for you to possibly see her as a victim in this and to feel sorry for her?

Reminds me of the Sopranos episode where one of Tony's mistresses called the house and his wife answered the phone and she confronted him afterwards. He told her he had broken it off and than he tells Carmella (his wife) that this poor girl tried to commit suicide. She goes off on him saying "now she's supposed to feel sorry for his whore mistress"? (Instead of being mad at him and his actions).

OP you also made a comment about the PAC 10 basketball tournament was going on and teams were staying at this same hotel. You said "I've had horrible thoughts that she did something MUCH worse with one or many basketball players".

How do you know they were staying there?

Why do you think something "much worse" happened?

In fact is this really the part that you're having a much harder time wrapping your mind around than the ONS with the ex?

Could you shed some light on these questions so we can get a better idea how things played out.

Thanks.

So I'm not sure why the men here feel the need to keep telling everyone that if she did all of that, the sex must have rocked her world.

Actually I don't think anyone is claiming the sex rocked her world, least of all me.

My contention is that one should be very skeptical of claims from a WW that the sex was an Arctic hellscape of frozen fear -- given the amount of planning, premeditation, effort, desire, and overt come-ons that went into it.

The brute fact is that his wife planned and executed on a scheme to be penetrated by another man.

For a BH like the OP (or me) it's exceedingly important to live in truth after all the lies.

If it seems like it's probably a lie, that's because it probably is.

If a WW is continuing to lie or minimize, then they are not remorseful. If she can't even bring herself to admit the level of planning involved, that's still wayward.

For example "she didn't enjoy any of it" -- really? So the moment she came out of the shower sat down on the bed in a bathrobe next to him and they began deep kissing and groping each other. She didn't enjoy that? It was already an Arctic hellscape of frozen fear?

She was frozen in fear when she bought the plane tickets? when she got on the plane? when she spent the day sightseeing with him? when she invited him to her room? when she coyly suggested he wait on the bed while she showered? when she let him finish, she was so frozen in fear she managed to clean up, to put on a cocktail dress or whatever and go out for a lovely evening? So frozen in fear she enjoyed appetizers, salad and an entree with a cocktail over dim lighting while a waiter served them?

And what happened after that? So frozen in fear she probably invited him back to her room again?

Once again, there's a big yawning gap between possibility and probability. Is it possible she was "frozen in fear etc etc blah blah blah wah wah wah noises coming out of her mouth"? Yes it's possible.

It's odd to me that some want to argue that point of possibility so strenuously when the probability for it is rather low.

There's multiple points along the whole process where SHE could have made any number of small changes and she would never have ended up underneath him. And, if the sex was so traumatic how in the world do you end up going to dinner with him after?

Exactly, Gutpunch33. Exactly. As I said earlier in this thread, be very skeptical of those trying to sell you the "little lost girl in the woods" trope. Your trauma, doubts, skepticism and pain are warranted.

Once again, we see a betrayed spouse here years later haunted by his unfaithful spouse's actions and her lack of authenticity, truthfulness and transparency surrounding those actions.

I understand we're talking about a family. Quit putting that burden on him. It's gross. Just stop it. It's not his burden. That's her burden.

[This message edited by Thumos at 9:16 AM, November 12th (Thursday)]

be very skeptical of those trying to sell you the "little lost girl in the woods" trope

Not to t/j but Thumos, would you please clarify what this means? I’ve seen this referred to before and I guess I’m kinda lost, pun not really intended.

Here's an opinion based on actual experience. I was crazy about a boy when I was in college. I wanted to go to bed with him and I chased him until he caught me. I'm embarrassed to say I had an attack of the guilts/something halfway through and absolutely freaked out on him. Now, your WW is different than me in that she didn't freak out and end it in the middle but that part of the reaction is more about our personalities. Back then, I tended to have big dramatic reactions and wasn't afraid to put them on display. I was also naive back then and didn't realize how bad it would make him feel.

And yet, afterwards, I remember being so hurt and shocked that he wouldn't talk to me or be my friend anymore because in my eyes, we could just set aside the sexual attraction and be friends. I can't say this is what went on with your wife but I tell this story so that you know that sometimes we want something really, really bad and then when we get it, we realize we're wrong, very, very wrong. None of us can explain it but it happens and it's part of the life experience through the ages.

The other thing I'd add to this conversation is a reminder that sex for women has a much deeper emotional component than for men (generally speaking, of course) and so if she had an attack of guilt or thinking about her marriage vows or her love for you, I can absolutely vouch for the fact that every iota of desire could have left her right that very second and even if he was Mr. Perfect Sex Performer, she wouldn't have enjoyed it at that point.

As for going out to eat with him afterwards, if she's a conflict avoidant type, I can totally buy it. Or maybe by being nice to him afterwards she thought it would help protect her dirty little secret. Who knows? We all think we're in charge of our lives and our brains but we aren't.

So quite frankly, I believe her. And I believe you. And it's a shame because you're probably soul mates but have this barrier keeping you from being perfect together and even though MC was a mistake 8 yrs. ago, it might be helpful now?

But let me go a little further with you. You've stayed with her for 8 years with this same question hanging over you like a black cloud. A question that always gets answered the same way. And she never flips out and yells back at you and gives you a different answer just to make you stop asking. Doesn't that say something for her? I mean, really, in a moment of aggravation, it wouldn't be hard for her to say "Yep, I liked it, I liked it, I liked it. NOW will you be quiet about it?" Would that make sense coming from a woman who has stayed married to you for 8 years now. At what point might you begin to believe her?

I would also mention to you that alcohol is the most depressing chemical known to mankind and is not your friend if you're trying to find happiness and joy again. And please forgive me for this 2X4 but I say it out of concern and in an attempt to help: when a person "works on" cutting down their drinking, that person is likely an alcoholic, a disease they have no control over. Just as you could be diabetic and have no control over what sugar does to your body, an alcoholic has no control about how his body reacts to alcohol. But while he has no control over his body's reaction, he does have control over his actions to pick up that piece of sugar or shotglass. Just to persuade yourself that I'm full of baloney, read about alcoholism and AA and give it some serious consideration because that might the answer you're looking for.

I wish you all the best and am truly cheering for you. The pain you've suffered and the challenges you've faced are no fun, I know that well. But I can tell that you and your WW can make it and I encourage you with all my heart to give what I've said here some serious thought. You could be happy as a pig in mud by Christmas. :)

[This message edited by josiep at 10:06 AM, November 12th (Thursday)]

Why didn't the OM stay the night?

Please don't tell me he had to get home to his wife.

Is there anyone, WWs or BWs, that can look at this and see that it makes sense to them?

I think the ONLY consolation you can take from this is that it was a ONS. If, in fact, that was the case, I think it could a hybrid scenario of what Thumos, Janagreen, HO, and BSR have said.

It is possible that she enjoyed the flirtation, muh feelz, and set the table for what she wanted to happen. All of that is intentional, disrespectful, and awful. It is also possible that she didn't enjoy the actual sex act beyond minimal physical enjoyment.

But she didn't go back....again, again, and again. To me, a ONS, while painful rests somewhere after a strictly emotional affair, but before an extended affair w/ multiple meetings, in terms of absolute horror IMHO. Not to minimize you pain, but you can infer that that there might be some credibility to her story in the 5 minutes or so it took to actually do the deed. Now do I believe that she is minimizing her description of the actual act??? You betcha.

None of that absolves her of responsibility. It is 100% true that put herself there and she wanted to have sex. There can be no crawfishing on her story with respect to that.

Not to minimize you pain, but you can infer that that there might be some credibility to her story in the 5 minutes or so it took to actually do the deed.

I would agree her answers would not stand up if she had continued to see him. If someone really liked what happened, typically this would have continued to have gone on.

Again, that doesn't make it better. It doesn't make it right. But, there is some substantiating evidence there that actually aligns with her story.

I would also like to say I think what Josie said to you was very astute and wise advice.

For example "she didn't enjoy any of it" -- really? So the moment she came out of the shower sat down on the bed in a bathrobe next to him and they began deep kissing and groping each other. She didn't enjoy that? It was already an Arctic hellscape of frozen fear?

I don't think I read anywhere in his story that's what happened. Instead, it says she acknowledges she was not raped or forced, that she clearly gave signals that the man followed. That she felt traumatized during the actual act. Many, many of us have felt that way. BS, WS, etc. You can get on the intimacy train with someone anticipating it will be one way, and actually feel quite objectified and miserable during the act itself. You are creating an exaggerated depiction of the story to make it seem implausible. I am sure it comes from a good place of protection over this man but you may be protecting him from the wrong thing.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:58 AM, November 12th (Thursday)]

No one is trying to sell a "little girl lost in the woods" trope, Thumos. No one is saying that she didn't make bad choices, or have agency, or actively pursue this affair. I've lost count of how many times you've angrily, sarcastically, and/or dismissively refuted an argument that no one is making.

You believe OP's WW is lying about enjoying the sex. No one is telling you that you aren't allowed to believe that. No one is even telling you that you shouldn't believe that. Believe whatever you want. You could very well be right.

We are, in continuously growing numbers, attesting that just because a woman pursues and consents to sex, that does not prove she enjoyed it. This WW's story is not as incredible to us as it is to you. We have lived through similar experiences, and so we offer those experiences as data points. We have no reason to lie to OP. For fuck's sake, we are active members of an infidelity recovery site. Every single one of us is trying to survive the monstrous damage that lying inflicts. Can you maybe give us a little credit for understanding the stakes here?

If OP's takeaway is that he will never believe his wife, and that our experience does not change his view of their situation, that's his call. I am speaking truth without agenda. But I'm not going to back down and say that our experiences aren't valid or relevant to the question that was asked. As you so often point out, we aren't scared little girls without intelligence or agency. We're not going to be intimidated into silence by hyperbole and eye rolls.

I for one truly appreciate the courage of those who are willing to share their wisdom from a painful experience.

Yes this is an infidelity site but it takes a lot of courage to share some of the horrible experiences people here have gone through.

We don't have to agree with each other on everything (and that's ok) but what we do have to do (in my humble opinion) is to listen to one another to try to understand each other's experiences and testimonys. Even after having done so we might not agree with them but we still need to respect and honor their story or statement or advice.

At the end of the day we're all fucked up and just trying our best to make it through our respective journeys in life and we all know there are things that will blindside us and knock us to the ground.

How blessed are we to have someone who is willing to reach down to offer their hand to pull us up, dust us off, offer some encouragement, and to help us continue our journey.

God shows up through people to help us and I for one have seen some remarkable courageous people here on SI who are willing to take their time to help strangers.

No one is trying to sell a "little girl lost in the woods" trope, Thumos. No one is saying that she didn't make bad choices, or have agency, or actively pursue this affair. I've lost count of how many times you've angrily, sarcastically, and/or dismissively refuted an argument that no one is making.

You believe OP's WW is lying about enjoying the sex. No one is telling you that you aren't allowed to believe that. No one is even telling you that you shouldn't believe that. Believe whatever you want. You could very well be right.

We are, in continuously growing numbers, attesting that just because a woman pursues and consents to sex, that does not prove she enjoyed it. This WW's story is not as incredible to us as it is to you. We have lived through similar experiences, and so we offer those experiences as data points. We have no reason to lie to OP. For fuck's sake, we are active members of an infidelity recovery site. Every single one of us is trying to survive the monstrous damage that lying inflicts. Can you maybe give us a little credit for understanding the stakes here?

If OP's takeaway is that he will never believe his wife, and that our experience does not change his view of their situation, that's his call. I am speaking truth without agenda. But I'm not going to back down and say that our experiences aren't valid or relevant to the question that was asked. As you so often point out, we aren't scared little girls without intelligence or agency. We're not going to be intimidated into silence by hyperbole and eye rolls.

BSR, are you open to the other perspective that she could be lying to get some sort of sympathetic response or to alleviate some of her guilt? The unfortunate truth is her story fits into the "shit cheater's say" script. It's a bit further up the spectrum from Eddie Murphy's "yeah, I fucked her, but I make luuuv to you baby" line. A lot of women, and I bet that number is damn near all if you expand the timeline far enough out, have feigned helplessness, cried, or outright lied to manipulate someone, usually a man, to do something for them or to give them something of value. And on a site with a bunch of betrayed men, you're preaching to the wrong fucking choir.

And, cheaters are liars. Gutpunch is better off taking the guilty until proven innocent approach. Actions not words, etc., and putting the burden of his WW. Let her fucking convince him by actions and words.

The main thing is who fucking cares if she enjoyed her A fucking? The fact remains she went to a bunch of trouble to have that traumatic bad sex, poor little damsel. She risked what she's dealing with now. And to gutpunch, it's really a matter of whether or not the shit sandwich has peanuts in it or not. She submitted to another man. She not only set up the scenario, she got on her knees, she spread her legs and bent over and let another man penetrate her. She let him use her until he was satisfied. Am I, or gutpunch, supposed to feel sorry for her that she didn't like this?

be very skeptical of those trying to sell you the "little lost girl in the woods" trope

Not to t/j but Thumos, would you please clarify what this means? I’ve seen this referred to before and I guess I’m kinda lost, pun not really intended.

Just my term for this unfortunate trend I've seen of giving far too many WW's an out with a narrative that usually goes along the lines of an innocent ingenue (even if a middle aged woman, natch) wandering into the dark woods of infidelity, finding herself lost and then being preyed upon by a wolf (it's almost always the super-persuasive playa AP who seems to have Svengali-like mesmer powers and manipulated their panties off).

I just don't think it washes.

I see various versions of it, but that's the essential outlines. I think it disrespects women, especially faithful BW's, because it almost tries to send women back to the fainting couch as innocent beings who can't make adult decisions.

This variation seems to be developing a bit of a "little lost girl in the woods" narrative. She didn't know what she was getting into when she booked plane tickets, flew to LA, spent a day with AP sightseeing, invited him to her hotel room, and then displayed her wares for him in a bathrobe. It was an Artic hellscape of "frozen fear" for her, you see. And she just REGRETS it soooo much. It was almost against her will, you see. She was terrified and just had to let him finish. And that's why she had to go to dinner with him afterward, because she was so deeply terrified and frozen with fear.

And she's conflict-avoidant, poor girl. She couldn't bear to tell the AP that his penis was instead like a uranium rod to her and so she simply had to enjoy a lovely dinner with him afterward.

It just doesn't wash with me.

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:22 PM, November 12th (Thursday)]

I was crazy about a boy when I was in college. I wanted to go to bed with him and I chased him until he caught me. I'm embarrassed to say I had an attack of the guilts/something halfway through and absolutely freaked out on him.

This wasn't a boy in college. This was a grown ass woman getting on a plane for the explicit purposes of illicit sex violating the marital covenant.

BSR, are you open to the other perspective that she could be lying to get some sort of sympathetic response or to alleviate some of her guilt?

Of course I am. I've lived that experience, too. I've been pretty open about my history as a conflict-avoidant liar.

A lot of women, and I bet that number is damn near all if you expand the timeline far enough out, have feigned helplessness, cried, or outright lied to manipulate someone, usually a man, to do something for them or to give them something of value. And on a site with a bunch of betrayed men, you're preaching to the wrong fucking choir.

A lot of men have done that, too, and some of their BWs are among the voices here. They aren't preaching to any choir. They're standing up to be counted, and yes, they understand that it's for the potential benefit of a WW. How strongly do you think they have to believe in the value of that testimony, to give it under those circumstances? I've seen what some of them have to say about OWs generally, and understandably, it ain't pretty. This isn't a campaign to falsely rehabilitate WWs.

Gutpunch is better off taking the guilty until proven innocent approach.

Again, this isn't guilt vs innocence. She's guilty of deliberately planned infidelity. I'm not sure why her feelings about the sex are being inextricably conflated with guilt or innocence.

The main thing is who fucking cares if she enjoyed her A fucking?

Her BH, apparently, since he came here and posted the question.

Am I, or gutpunch, supposed to feel sorry for her that she didn't like this?

No. No one said that, either. The question was one of belief, not sympathy or absolution.

The other thing I'd add to this conversation is a reminder that sex for women has a much deeper emotional component than for men (generally speaking, of course)

And you know this how?

she clearly gave signals that the man followed

Or even as likely that in fact she was the aggressor.

I am sure it comes from a good place of protection over this man but you may be protecting him from the wrong thing.

Or you're projecting onto her. That's another possibility.