SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Thank you for pointing that out Fareast. Also, is this your first time here? The betrayed men on these forums make it very clear how they feel about women in general. We are all liars and none of us are to be believed about anything.

You mention one of the reasons why Hiking, a previous lover is vetted. He knows what she likes, there's history\nostalgia, and she can show off new moves or show him what he's missing out on. Plus, there's the "what could have been" fantasy.

And, again, this is where you are wrong. I once slept with an ex after lots of time had passed. It completely sucked. It did not at the time we were originally together. This was not a cheating situation either. And, we do not know how much time passed here. I could go back and sleep with someone I slept with in highschool and the experience would be quite different, I am certain. It would have to be my ex husband in this case, but I am certain without the same feelings and issues of our past, it would probably feel pretty empty and not be a top experience.

I agree with these things:

1. It doesn't really matter if she enjoyed it or not, it should not have happened in the first place. We will never as an anonymous forum disprove or prove the truth on that. Noone on this site can tell you if she is lying or not.

2. It IS possible to initiate and anticipate sex and not enjoy it.

3. Her going to a hotel room with a man, showering, etc, there is no way that it wasn't planned or that it was a surprise. I agree, as a woman I would not invite someone in my room I wasn't open to something happening with.

Other than that:

DIFM - I apologize, I can absolutely see how a BH would have that problem. I was not trying to be sexist or insensitive. All I was saying was my experience is my male partners have been typically guaranteed to finish, where that is more of a question mark for me. They aren't finishing because I am a sex Goddess. They are finishing because the path to do so is more straight forward (barring trauma, other physical ailments, conditions - meant in a very general way) Think on these terms: When I man goes to take care of himself, without the aid of anything else, the methodology might have variations but be vastly the same. Women when doing that employ variations that look nothing like the other. Again, huge generalization, but true. I don't mean that men aren't as complex emotionally, or that men just love any sex you throw at them. I just mean mechanically they are less mysterious. Some of our "centers" are even internal, so mysterious is not a stretch. But, most of what I was saying was just my experience and I know that to be an experience of other women far before this thread.

Thumos, you seem very agitated, when you are being told by numerous women that it's possible she is lying. It is possible that she is lying. It's also POSSIBLE she is not lying. I know you are trying to help the OP by not falling into a trap, but you do not know for a fact he is.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:36 PM, November 11th (Wednesday)]

Fareast for the white knight win. Hilarious indeed.

Thumos, you seem very agitated, when you are being told by numerous women that it's possible she is lying. It is possible that she is lying. It's also POSSIBLE she is not lying. I know you are trying to help the OP by not falling into a trap, but you do not know for a fact he is.

No we said it’s not probable, while it may be possible. Many things are in the realm of possibility — like ants with top hats doing a chorus line, for example. Possible? Yeah. Probable?

nah.

Getting confused about the realm of all possible things is a red herring.

Anyway what really matters is not whether she had her socks knocked off by the sex with AP but that she won’t cop to the planning and premeditation. That’s probably the real issue and an indication of her lack of authenticity for a real reconciliation.

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:39 PM, November 11th (Wednesday)]

I love reading everyone's responses because they're so varied and come from experience. The best part of this forum is the crowd sourced wisdom that comes with all the posts.

As many of You have so wisely guessed, I'm not sure I'm going to be able To stay married and keep my sanity. In truth, had it not been for my kids I would have been gone on day one. But as many of you have acknowledged they play a huge factor in our decisions.

Whether she enjoyed it or not plays very little into all of it actually. She has been brutally honest, did an enormous amount of work through therapy, ended her relationship with her parents and endured a lot of anger from me. Yet she still adamantly sticks to her story that it was horrible from start to finish. So much so that I've had paranoid visions of her actually have done something much worse than what she says happened. The PAC 1p basketball tournament teams were all staying in her and hotel and I've had horrible thoughts that she did something much worse with 1 or many basketball players.

So the reason I bring this up to the group is to see if it's within reason that she could be telling the truth.

See, my fWWs mother is an abusive monster that would scream at her that she was a whole, slut, accuse her of horrible things, physically attack her, her brothers and father. And her father allowed it, covered it up to the police, pastor, teachers and even now takes the mothers side. So, my fWW has not spoken to either of them since DAY.

I'm at a crossroads. My last one goes to college next summer and it will be just her and I. And I'm afraid I'll have no motivation to stay. I'm tired of bearing this weight by myself as I required that no one know about this to protect my kids and to protect myself from the feelings of shame that comes from when you get cheated on and people see you as weak, a coward or a cuckold.

What you said, Thumos, was that every single person here agreed with you. Then when I challenged you, you said ok, everyone but BSR. Apparently hikingout, Cooley and leavingorbit are just figments of my imagination.

The OP did not ask if how his WW says she felt during sex excused her actions or absolved her of her responsibility in initiating the ONS.

The OP did not ask if how she says she felt during sex means she was duped, played or taken advantage of by the OM.

The OP asked if, given her obvious complicity leading up to the act, how she says she felt during sex is possible, and if so, can anyone explain how that thought process would work.

Four women, both BS and WS, confirmed that they have had terrible sexual experiences that they themselves initiated, and that while we can't read her mind, we believe she could be telling the truth. I did my best to explain how.

I have no idea if that will help the OP, but we answered the question he asked.

No we said it’s not probable, while it may be possible. Many things are in the realm of possibility — like ants with top hats doing a chorus line, for example. Possible? Yeah. Probable?

nah.

Getting confused about the realm of all possible things is a red herring.

No, you do not seem to be open to the idea that it's possible she is telling the truth. You are actually quite aggressive about it. There is no red herring here.

I'm at a crossroads. My last one goes to college next summer and it will be just her and I. And I'm afraid I'll have no motivation to stay. I'm tired of bearing this weight by myself as I required that no one know about this to protect my kids and to protect myself from the feelings of shame that comes from when you get cheated on and people see you as weak, a coward or a cuckold.

Ah, so now we see a bigger picture.

If it didn't matter if she enjoyed it or not, it seemed you were confused about it on your post.

You can definitely leave, end it, what ever you need to do to be whole. I would never talk someone out of D or R, or whatever you choose.

But, by my experience we get an awful lot of men here who tend to clam up and not talk to their FWW about what they struggle with. I think they believe that it won't change the outcome. And, it makes sense because your wife has stuck to her story, you are unlikely to get another narrative. But, it's still helpful to share your interior world and tell her what issues you are having. I think a lot of the weight of this tends to be you are still carrying the entire load of this yourself.

It's a theme - she's done the work, she can't help me any further. I feel this way, but I am not going to tell her.

I will tell you what that got me - CHEATED ON.

And, I will tell you that it might get her divorced which is a way better way of dealing with it. But, my guess is that if she had to choose between being there for you and bringing this all out or getting divorced, a lot of people would choose "let's get this all back out".

Not every one will, and that's what divides those of us who have remorse with those who do not.

Talk to her. Go to therapy. I don't say that to talk you out of your choice, I say it because I think when you keep things bottled up we often end up lacking clarity. If you decide to divorce her after gaining that clarity you will have more confidence in your decision I feel.

Dear TKOGA,

I don't think women lie any more than men. People who commit infidelity cheat and lie. The one exception I can think of is when a WS has a ONS with someone and then immediately goes home and admits everything to the BS. Then, that person can be considered just a cheat. It's clear that the ONS was premeditated. Maybe the WW gave herself the option to call it off, but when she decided to invite the AP up to her hotel room, take a shower, and then sit next to him on the bed wearing only a bathrobe, there is no doubt what was her intentions. If she refuses to admit to that, she is lying. Thus, what transpired afterward could also be a lie. He could have spent the night with her. Who knows. I suspect the trauma is a result of the fact that her little tryst wasn't all she expected it to be. The trauma is most likely a result of the fact that she realized she jeopardized her marriage over a fantasy. It would be interesting to know how the BS found out about the ONS. It could shed light on her veracity. Again, people lie, and certainly, people who are unfaithful are big time liars. A person's gender has nothing to do with it.

I'm at a crossroads. My last one goes to college next summer and it will be just her and I. And I'm afraid I'll have no motivation to stay. I'm tired of bearing this weight by myself as I required that no one know about this to protect my kids and to protect myself from the feelings of shame that comes from when you get cheated on and people see you as weak, a coward or a cuckold.

This may be a dealbreaker for you as it is for many others. I know without a doubt I would have left if we didn't have kids. My STBX wasn't remorseful and he is a serial cheater so there really was nothing for me to work with.

I too am in the camp of not believing your WW's version of events. The frozen in fear part maybe her feeling nervous about cheating on you and the repercussions (as she should be).

I would get into IC to explore your feelings and what you want for your future whether that includes staying married or not.

I’ll leave it.

No I don’t believe what OP has reported about his wife’s justification and minimizations. I think there’s a high probability she’s being less than transparent, inauthentic and not intellectually honest, with herself and with him.

That’s a recipe for limbo, which OP certainly seems to be experiencing 8 years out.

Gutpunch it’s your life and you will have to decide what you believe. She truly gutted you with this act of high duplicity and you owe her nothing, even 8 years out.

[This message edited by Thumos at 1:06 PM, November 11th (Wednesday)]

Gutpunch, I'm right there with you. Just past 4 years for me and quite honestly my WW has done little to no work to get to her why's. I'm looking at being empty nested in about 3 years and do not see a future together. I'm getting my ducks lined up so that if/when the time comes that I can't see myself staying with her, I'll pull the rip cord. Whether or not she enjoyed the sex is irrelevant. What is and has been gnawing at you is her betrayal. She broke the marriage contract. It doesn't matter how much work she does to be safe. In the end you have to decide what you can live with. If you can't live with her, that's okay. If we are faithful and loyal, it's no surprise we find it difficult to live with someone who isn't. My WW has shown me she is a different person from what she claimed she was to me. During an argument when she was in the affair (unbeknownst to me) she claimed "I know who I am". And I realize now she was right, and I didn't know who she was. She showed me, and has shown me that we don't share the same commitment, morals, and values. And that is likely what you are struggling with 8 years later.

She has been brutally honest, did an enormous amount of work through therapy, ended her relationship with her parents and endured a lot of anger from me. Yet she still adamantly sticks to her story that it was horrible from start to finish. So much so that I've had paranoid visions of her actually have done something much worse than what she says happened. The PAC 1p basketball tournament teams were all staying in her and hotel and I've had horrible thoughts that she did something much worse with 1 or many basketball players.

I am very sorry to hear that. I know definitely how it's difficult to settle on a truth even when it seems they are being brutally honest. But, if you believe that she is brutally honest and that you have paranoia over the situation, this would be a very good thing to explore in therapy. I don't say that because I think you are crazy. I say that because empty nest plays into marital satisfaction as well, and usually has a negative impact upon it. Being on the precipice of a "next chapter" it's common to have this type of thinking even without infidelity. You basically said you are afraid you will lose motivation.

How do you see your marriage on the whole over the last 8 years? Has much of it been rebuilt?

OP,

Just so we are all on the same page and operating under the same set of facts. When you say she claims it "horrible from start to finish" are talking about 1.) from sexual contact through dinner or 2.) from the time she landed in LA through dinner? At what point does she say she began to regret it?

DIFM - I apologize....

No worries, HO. We are a collective, engulfed in machinations and mental maneuvering that no person should have to engage in, and the results of which are often simple and complex, but almost always painful.

[This message edited by DIFM at 1:12 PM, November 11th, 2020 (Wednesday)]

Then when I challenged you, you said ok, everyone but BSR.

That was a joke, incidentally. Thus the asterisk. Sometimes my humor gets lost in translation (sometimes).

"She just wanted it to be over" (the sex).

And when it was over she was so "traumatized" that she got dressed and left the room and went to dinner with him.

Well alright then.

"We are ALL liars"?

Yes TKOGA EVERY single woman is a "liar".

Good grief!!!

So the reason I bring this up to the group is to see if it's within reason that she could be telling the truth.

It's within reason that she didn't enjoy the sex and it's within reason that she just told you that she didn't enjoy the sex because she felt it would make it less horrible somehow. The problem is what it always is. Believing what someone who lied and cheated said, especially when what they say sounds like what nearly every cheater says to make what they did less awful. She may be telling the absolute truth, but once trust has been broken like this, it's very hard for us to just believe whatever the WS says.

You could make an argument that my XWH was acting out due to past sexual trauma and hated it every time he paid for a prostitute (or three). It is possible that this is true. Maybe 0.01% chance. It is almost certainly a load of horseshit that he insulted my intelligence with. But hell, let's say it was actually the truth. There was no way I would ever believe it. His actions broke the relationship in such a way that I would never believe that. You would have to have a mighty strong trust bond to believe a story like that. We could be sad that a person who paid for prostitutes was intentionally hurting himself and hated every second and his wife just refused to believe him and pity his great suffering as a result. Or, we could say "You can't become the most untrustworthy person in her life and then spin her a tale as likely as an alien abduction. Maybe you shouldn't have cheated in the first place if you wanted to be seen as honest."

It is much more likely to be true that your wife didn't enjoy the ONS than it is that my XWH didn't enjoy his plethora of prostitutes. The reason both are hard to take at face value remains the same.

There's nothing wrong with deciding that this was a dealbreaker for you. It's healthier to face that possibility than to continue trying to force yourself into being okay with something you just aren't ever going to be okay with.

If she has done all of the work OP says she has done,and she is now a safe partner, then I would say she is telling the truth.

I understand and agree with HO and others, it is possible to instigate sex that you regret before it is even finished for various reasons.

As someone who has had sex with an ex wife years after the marriage, I can validate that old country song "there's nothing cold as ashes after the fire is gone".

But to me all of this is irrelevant. There is no question the wife set out to have sex with her ex. End of story.