SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

IOW, I believe you would feel no better than you do now even if your W said you were a sex god who was better at sex than everyone else.

I can relate to this.

If the sex was better, that hurts.

But what if the sex really wasn't that great? Then the WS threw away their M and their integrity for shitty sex. Does that make it any better for the BS?

It doesn't for me.

Either the WS threw away their M and their integrity and put their BS under the bus for "good" sex, or for "different" sex, or for "bad" sex. I still ended up under a fucking bus that my WH had no issues driving for a long-ass time.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 5:02 PM, February 5th, 2021 (Friday)]

Username123

you say:

*******************

Hasn't your wife said ""I fucked up. I hurt you. I'm sorry and I will try to make it right" ? Did you tell her this is what you need to hear ?

*******************

So? What is right? (anyone?)

I don't see a "right" - what has transpired is mutual history. Unless you lose your mind - the memory is there forever. (Well, till you croak)

I cannot think of anything that will make what happened "right."

Can the marriage survive and both find some mutual happiness? Yes. "But than ain't RIGHT!"

Even if the BS manages some level of trust - the level will never match the time before - that little twinge of memory will pop up at the damnedest times.

One of the post relates "some other person knows part of my spouse that only I should have known" (since we exchanged vows) - so How does the WS make that "right?"

I intend no offense - but I just can't wrap my thoughts around "making it right."

when the instrusive thoughts hit - I put on some kind of happy sounding music - Cajun/foot-stomping country/classic marches at HIGH volume. I played in a band - so I like music like what it sounds from that perspective. Annoys the spouse - but then, so does the memory.

Hippo16,

I didn't say "make it right". That was a quote from LostOpportunities20.

Hippo16

"I will try to make it right" was a poor choice of words. It can't be made right since the original marriage no longer exists. What was done can't be undone. I think what I meant by that was I want her to feel safe for me. I want her to show me that staying in this is worth it as this point.

Username123

WW has done what I can fairly expect her to do and say. But, she always throws out the "but it wasn't real, what I have with you is real" and I think she says that when she is feeling overwhelmed with shame or low self esteem or she says it when she thinks she needs to do something to lift me up is I seem I'm about to go over the cliff.

I think WW would like to think that she has remorse, and she probably does. But I think there is just as much regret over how it has impacted her life. How can that not be the case?

The marriage is, in a vacuum, different and getting better in spurts and starts. If I don't think about the affair, it is actually pretty good.

Divorce right away was out of the question just because of my circumstances. But I'd be lying if I didn't think about having a different life if I had moved on.

As far as getting over the sexual component, honestly, looking back, it is a bit fuzzy in my memory when I transitioned... I think it might have been about a year before I could touch WW without feeling sick. After that, it was dealing with the occasional feeling of betrayal over the "connection".

[This message edited by LostOpportunities20 at 7:35 PM, February 5th (Friday)]

Rats!

did read to well - I see you posted what Lost said

Happy Friday (I don't have to work after tonight!)

LostOpportunities20 and Username123.

Hippo16

"I will try to make it right" was a poor choice of words. It can't be made right since the original marriage no longer exists. What was done can't be undone. I think what I meant by that was I want her to feel safe for me. I want her to show me that staying in this is worth it as this point.

Username123

WW has done what I can fairly expect her to do and say. But, she always throws out the "but it wasn't real, what I have with you is real" and I think she says that when she is feeling overwhelmed with shame or low self esteem or she says it when she thinks she needs to do something to lift me up is I seem I'm about to go over the cliff.

I think WW would like to think that she has remorse, and she probably does. But I think there is just as much regret over how it has impacted her life. How can that not be the case?

The marriage is, in a vacuum, different and getting better in spurts and starts. If I don't think about the affair, it is actually pretty good.

picking a few words:

I'm about to go over the cliff

Isn't that frustration with wanting something from the spouse but that something isn't said or done?

And if we have to ASK for it - just not worth the bother?

BTDT - a lot

Some people have empathy and some don't. Some do there best to "fix themself" - a couple of ladies that post a lot are examples. I read their posts and try to see how my WS could be saying similar but with different words.

Going back to what OldTruck asked - she had two children by first marriage and several "relationships" after. And had herself sterilized so no worries (other than disease) while -

So my hangup is loss of trust and a memory - forever. The trading of body fluids - that is just a transaction. Mind movies - none. If you need some kind of mind movies - I think one can easily find crap with a google search for "porn."

Wondering who or what I really married? Still working on that one.

regarding poor choice of words - there is an idea there and getting it into words is hard and then conveying to others with different backgrounds is even harder

I get this!

I want her to feel safe for me

that's just plain tough to do

username123, sex feels good, sex is fun, so sex has to be those things

during an affair.

I never had a $100 per person meal. I am sure that the food

would of been very good. Being that I can cook great food at

home and for a lot less money I could enjoy that expensive

restaurant meal while I was eating it. Though as soon as I had

to pay the check I would of regretted eating that meal. I would

of found it not worth it because I could of cooked a better meal at home.

Sex during a PA gets heightened due to the illicit, naughty,

being bad behavior. Making sex which feels good and fun

feel more so.

I think that for the WW that says looking back the sex was

not worth it. The way I would say that $100 a plate meal

was not worth it. So the WW regrets the price she paid

for that sex with the consequences she now faces after D day.

The realization of what she paid for to have the sex makes

that sex devalued, not looked back on something with fond

memories.

So if your WW feels that the sex was not worth it now

you should agree with her and give it no more head space.

A WW cannot undo having sex with her OM. Once all of

a BH's sex questions have been asked there is no more to

know, no reason to keep talking about the affair sex. For

even if divorce does not happen recovery will stall and

married sex life will not recover.

Most people have sex with others before they get married.

We do not get hung up on that. We let that go. To recover a

marriage we have to let go of that affair sex as well. Letting

go does not mean to rug sweep it. Though things have to

be let go for as with beating a dead horse, beating it more

will not get that horse to get again.

I’m 7 years out. Had the same discussion with WW. Many many many times. I found it was I simply didn’t trust the answer. I mean looking at it from her standpoint how can she be honest with me? Any answer about this will be looked upon with suspicion. It’s non winnable. Mutually assured destruction. They will always have their secrets. The two of them. I fell into a loop with this. It went on for about 4 years. Finally my WW said she wasn’t talking about details anymore.Said it wasn’t helping me anymore. I was painshopping. She was right. I was. Look it’s one of those questions that your probably never going to like the answer. I just came to the conclusion that she had sex with someone else. Whether it was good or bad isn’t going to make me feel one bit better about it. Punishing myself over it isn’t beneficial either. Have you ever watered down something to protect another’s feeling? Would you look someone whom you love in the eyes and say I had awesome sex with my AP while trying to reconcile? I watched a documentary on lying . The conclusion is everybody lies. So I think you need to get to acceptance. Because the answer to your question is there is no answer.

jailedmind,

I agree that I will never know the truth because my WW is incentivized to lie about her sex life with AP if she wants to stay married.

It is very concerning that your wife laid down the law with you and refused to discuss the details anymore. She should be willing to discuss the details until you are healed however long that takes.

The waywards don't get to make the rules about recovery or R.

username123, it takes time for most WW to stop the trickle

truthing. though after two years of talking with a WW, with

no more left to learn the BH has nothing to gain talking about

the PA.

Now why did jailedmind still needed to talk about his WW PA?

We do not know. Did he feel that his WW was still holding

back details. I could see the need to get all the truth out.

Was jailed just reasking questions rewording questions to get

things cleared in his mind. The first two years after D day

should provide enough time to of gotten that done. Though if

his WW trickled truth for twenty three months after D day I

can see a BH needing to talk the PA out with his WW for

two more years leaving the need to talk about the PA four

years out from D day.

oldtruck,

I do not believe the wayward ever gets to make the rules for recovery or R.

Endless loop. I was asking questions but rewording them looking for different answers. like old truck said. Over and over. Then it was habitual. Like going for a run or getting coffee in the morning. I needed to refocus my energy on me. Not what she did. Shifting gears while your recuperating is what I needed but I was stuck in neutral. Not moving forward or backward. To this day she has stuck to the same story. Will it work for everybody? Probably not. Did I like that she wouldn’t talk about details anymore . No. But what was I learning? She just repeated the same story over and over. I had the timeline, She told me what they did. I had investigated on my own but I was in a loop. It didn’t help that I troubleshoot control systems for a living. So ruminating about problems just came naturally to me. And I liked to ruminate. But in the end it didn’t serve me. She was remorseful she felt ashamed she did restitution. At some point we gotta take control of our own healing and for me answering what was different about sex wasn’t one of them It was hindering my healing. So it’s the question without the answer. I had a hard time learning acceptance. Because it just is what it is. It’s a long journey. Fraught with things we didn’t want. But we gotta ask ourselves if what we are doing is good for us.Because if you ask the question you don’t always like the answer. I had a supervisor once who was famous for going around and asking a question to you but rewording it over and over. Another guy I worked with said this to me. You weren’t kidding that he does that well he can ask the question anyway he wants. The answer will always be the same. I just accept it now. I can’t change it and if I knew every detail every word every thought every emotion would I feel any better ? I would still feel very hurt, very emasculated very betrayed. Those feelings don’t go away because we know what kind of sex they had. So if your trying to find some way to make those feelings go away by knowing. I don’t think your going to get what you wanted. Because there isn’t an answer to your pain. There is just the hard work you have to do to heal yourself. Our councillor told her to limit the graphical stuff. She told me what they did anyway. I was mad at the councillor . But in hind sight he knew with his 25 years of cleaning these messes up. You live with those images forever. There were certain positions my wife and I did not do for some time Because knowing gave me panic attacks. Maybe you think you need to know . I know I was the same. But now I know it would have been far better for me if I just knew Who what when. Not the technicolor version. I’m just saying. Make sure you look at the long game. Because the images get seared in. And they don’t seem to go away very easily. For me anyway.

jailedmind,

The rule around here is that the BS gets to ask any and every question they want and the remorseful wayward answers them honestly. This is backed up by the bible for affair recovery titled "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair" by Linda J. MacDonald.

It is a terrible idea to let the cheater make the rules for recovery or reconciliation. They don't deserve that privilege or power and they don't know what the BS needs to heal.

[This message edited by Username123 at 9:24 AM, February 6th (Saturday)]

oldtruck,

If a BS still has concerns about WS sex with AP then they should be able to ask.

The WS should not make the rules for recovery or R.

It is not that the BH gets to make the rules.

It is about the proper steps that both the WS and BS need to

do after D day. There is no rule that allows for the BS to

interrogate their WS forever.

There are well established guidelines through years of research

and experience.

Once a question has been answered the answer can never be

unheard.

Best to let the BS control how much detail they need to know.

Best to ask specific questions working from general down to

specific. Example did you have sex, how many times, what

type. This way the BS can stop before too much is revealed.

Also the WS is to be truthful give the full time line yet

leave out details this way the BS is given the opportunity to

ask for more details as they question the WS, giving the BS

control how much detail/pain he can handle.

After D day normal for the BS to want to talk about the affair

as soon as they get home from work. Having to wait for the

kids to go to bed first. Up most of the nighty dragging

themselves off to work the next morning.

After two weeks of this the physical toll is to much for the

both if them. the need of time spent talking about the affair

has to start being limited. Such as no affair talk friday evening

to monday evening.

Why?

Recovery cannot move forward raking up pain nonstop. So

the weekends have to used to heal. Recovery is not just

finding out about the affair sex.

A month out the affair should been talked out a lot. Time to

taper down again to affair talk tuesday through thursday.

Another week or to then affair talk on tuesday and thursday.

Healing and new positive memories and connections need to

be made. Nonstop affair talk does not allow this.

After a year set aside every wednsday to affair talk.

After second year there should be nothing left to talk about

that has not been asked and re asked a thousand times. So no

need to have a regular schedule affair talk.

In fact if the WS or BS have no need to talk during any of

this time frame they can skip talking about the affair on any

of those scheduled affair talk days.

After two years or if sooner if the affair talks have stopped

and let's say that six years from D day the BS triggers it is

normal and correct to talk about any trigger if they feel that

talking with the WS would be helpful.

Years out and the BS triggers it is not mandatory that BS must

tell their WS that they just had a trigger. Quite often a trigger

happens so fast and disappears so fast there is nothing to

gain mentioning it to the WS.

1) A person can't R with someone who the person thinks is lying. Why, then, do you not D?

2) The WS damn well has to be part of any decision to R. If R doesn't take the WS's wants and needs into account, R won't work. If R doesn't satisfy the WS's wants and needs, why the hell would a WS want to R?

I think I get it. I think you want to know if your W wants you or wants M.

There's only one way to figure that out. You have to decide what evidence will give you your answer, you need to seek that evidence, you need to believe what you find, and you need to act on the evidence.

Dodging your responsibility is obviously not working. If you take responsibility for yourself, you will solve your problem - and you won't solve your problem until you do take responsibility for yourself.