SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

As the WW, THIS is what fundamentally bothers me too. NOT whether or not sex was better, but that I shared myself with someone that was not my husband.

It makes me cringe. I make myself cringe.

I mentally try to block any recollection of the sex, as well as any and all interactions between the two of us.

To me, the sex was a mistake. I was a mistake. Everything about the A was a HUGE mistake. My private journal and original poetry are my own personal proof of what I speak (and both keep me sane).

I didn't crave his dick. I craved his words.

I hate myself for it. And I wish AP's dick would dry up and fall off.

sundance, I believe your regret and your remorse post D day.

I believe that you gave up sex to get the attention from the

OM.

I believe that you now reflecting on the things that happened

during your PA disgust you because your head is cleared of

the false justification to have a PA.

During your PA did you want to cringe when the OM told you

that he wanted meet up and have sex?

Did you cringe when you made out? Cringe when the OM

touched you sexually?

At the time did you enjoy the sex?

Every time your date was over with the OM did you go an

throw up?

The BH how his WW felt during her PA and how she felt

after her PA. Is there ever enough WW regret for the BH to

ignore and forget about how she felt during her PA?

Then what about the many WW that cut off their BH during

their PA to be faithful to their OM. Because the WW says

I was all wrong to do the things that I did to please the OM

and feel the things that I did with the OM and regret all those

things.

So now it after D day and now the WW

says I was wrong to

feel and think that the OM was better than you.

This is to be taken at face value now after the BH does the pick me dance

for months while the WW refused to go NC with the OM.

The WW lied during her PA, lied after D day, refusing NC

with the OM. Now the WW wants to recover and now she

states that you can believe her now when sex was not better

with the OM.

Then when the same thing is said by a WW that got dumped

by her OM on D day. Now she is no longer lying when she

says sex with the OM was not better.

There is a huge credibility gap that has to be worked on. Only

the full truth can repair the credibility gap. Saying the sex

was different does nothing to repair the credibility gap.

Saying the sex was enjoyable because sex feels good.

Because sex with the OM felt good did not make it feel better

than with you.

That you gave up sex for the emotional needs, the extra

attention, because you enjoyed that extra attention being

chased by the AP.

The PA created an addictive high feeling leaving me with a

craving to continue the PA to keep getting that high.

The WW lying to protect the BH does not work because the

BH can no longer handle any more lies.

I apologize for all this hot air.

[This message edited by oldtruck at 9:49 PM, January 22nd (Friday)]

I know my WS liked sex with AP better. I didn't know about his kinky bachelor past. He wanted to re live those days. There is nothing I can do about it. I view it as abuse even if as he said she requested it. It's the using of a damaged person that worries me. Even if she doesn't see herself as damaged. How many strippers/ prostitutes/ pornactresses came from bad situations? They need help not someone to be using them. The AP traded abuse sex for jobs, attention and distraction. I know their sex was different. I'm sure it lit up his brain way more than i ever could.

The WW lying to protect the BH does not work because the

BH can no longer handle any more lies.

I apologize for all this hot air.

Firstly, I did not read your response as "hot air." I'm pretty far out from the end of my A, so I don't get as "riled up" about these things as I once did, so I actually "read" from a much calmer place.

Secondly, my answer to this question today, likely looks much, much different from the answer I would have given right after the A ended.

I can, however, honestly say that YES, sometimes I was physically ill after sex with my AP. Apparently, my body didn't like the idea of my mind fucking with it.

For me, what stands out is that if I answer this question honestly from where my brain was at during the A, it just looks so different from where my brain is at now-- yet, I consider both answers to be truthful. And that holds true whether I'm answering honestly about my "whys" or the sex question.

For example, my "whys" looked different the days and first few months following the end of my A -vs- my "whys" now. I've found that if/when I answer the why question from my early A brain, I'm chastised for still being in the dark and "just not getting it." Yet, if I answer from my many years post-A brain, I'm sometimes challenged with not answering truthfully.

I certainly don't mean to disqualify any BS's pain with my answers. It is not my intent to invalidate what any BS is attempting to teach me.

I do however believe that with growth and distance, the truth at the "end" of the journey (years out from d-day), makes much more sense than the "truth" garnered the first days and months after d-day.

Hoping this helps a little.

I can, however, honestly say that YES, sometimes I was physically ill after sex with my AP. Apparently, my body didn't like the idea of my mind fucking with it.

I can literally remember a little voice in my head telling my mind when it would think about the many negatives of the AP to "shut up and don't ruin it." The fantasy was all that separated me from devastating difficulties and depression that I simply did not feel I could handle.

sundance,

Are you in the camp that you thought sex with your AP was better than sex with your BS during your affair but then changed the way you see sex with your AP after remorse set in ?

Can you point out examples where the WS admitted to the BS sex was better with AP in cases the WS wanted R?

My WW never said those exact words but she told me that she enjoyed the sex with the AP and on a few occasions during the A when she had to much to drink she told me she didn’t desire me and basically she didn’t enjoy sex with me. So yes she said the sex was better.

For some context my had some serious health issues that crushed our sex life and we never really recovered in that area so sure the sex was better because it was new and free from those issues. We’re working on it now but it could possibly be our greatest hurdle and ultimately our undoing but we are trying to R.

[This message edited by Brew3x at 10:44 AM, January 23rd (Saturday)]

Brew3x,

From what you just aid your wife did not say sex with AP was better than sex with you. She said she enjoyed sex with her AP which is probably true for almost all waywards.

[This message edited by Username123 at 10:58 AM, January 23rd (Saturday)]

Brew3x,

From what you just aid your wife did not say sex with AP was better than sex with you. She said she enjoyed sex with her AP which is probably true for almost all waywards.

I was trying to tell you the ways she said the sex was better without getting into every detail so someone didn’t come back at me and say she said all those things you can’t R with her she’s not remorseful or some other self righteous BS.

I assure you without say the words”the sex was better” she said the sex was better.

What do you think I enjoyed the sex with the AP means when she told me the night before you hate the sex with me means?

What do you think it means when she says the AP was getting her off but I wasn’t? What do you think it means when she said I suck with my fingers but the AP didn’t? The conversations weren’t exactly built this way but it explains my point. It may have been more like in September she told me I suck at this and then in October she told me he was good at this...

when you compile all the conversations together she said the sex was better trust me.

Yes when I asked her straight up if it was better she gave some lame answer like the whole affair was separate from our M and she never compared but I’ve learned to read the tea leaves and compile conversations into a simple meaning. My w is a last set at compartmentalizing her feelings so it could be true.

Brew3x,

Does your wife tell you she wants R ?

Do you think she is remorseful ?

Brew3x,

Does your wife tell you she wants R ?

Do you think she is remorseful ?

Tough questions to answer

I think she wants to remain married and work towards a better M how much she will do remains to be seen but she is trying

I think it’s a cross between regret remorse and shame. I think she working through it.

As far as the sex goes I don’t think you can compare it apple to apples. Like everyone said there are many factors that contribute to good sex. My W’s A sex was defiantly an escape from reality, there was no surgery, cancer or hormone therapy there. The AP never bathed her or cleaned and dressed her surgical wounds. Why wouldn’t the sex be better if it was all rainbows and butterflies. I also think all those negative things she said about our sex life we’re just ways to justify it to herself.

Anyway my suggestion is stop focusing on weather or not the sex was better and focus on healing and R or D. The sex is in the past you can’t change what happened,’you only can change how you move forward.

Can you point out examples where the WS admitted to the BS sex was better with AP in cases the WS wanted R ?

Exactly. Because it's not.

You proved the point perfectly.

You just made a mass generalization.

UN123: Go to the Philosophy department of your local college and ask to speak to a professor. Ask the professor to show you the devastating weaknesses in your argument.

***

Waited, I call this an over-generalization because it's based on too small a sample. We can assume that either sex was better or wasn't better, but we don't have enough evidence to know which is true.

IOW, I'm not saying the generalization is true or untrue. I'm saying we just can't know at this point whether it's true or untrue.

*****

My W said that the first few sessions were really special. She just said a moment ago (I asked) that ow did at least one thing that was better than what I did.

She also said that sex with the ap became a bore. She said she continued having sex with her in part to teach her to have sex as good as it was with me.

You know what? I'm glad my W likes sex with me, but that does nothing to mitigate the pain of her sharing herself with someone else.

IOW, I believe you would feel no better than you do now even if your W said you were a sex god who was better at sex than everyone else. If she did, my bet is that you'd just look for another comparison with which to beat yourself up.

*****

It is absolutely true that it's possible that sex for some WSes was different, not better.

You do not accept that possibility. That, ipso facto, demonstrates you are not thinking straight.

That's a real problem, one that only you can solve. You CAN solve it, but first you have to recognize and accept it.

*****

Contradictions in your posting:

You believe your W is lying about her A sex.

There are tons of SIers and former SIers who will testify that one CANNOT R(econcile) with someone who continues to lie.

You say you refuse to let yourself be with a W who had better sex with someone than with you.

You believe your W had better sex with her ap than with you.

And yet you haven't D'ed.

Numerous fWSes on SI say the sex was different, not better.

You refuse to believe them.

Overall, I believe you're fucking yourself up. I urge you to stop.

I believe you haven't D'ed yet because somewhere inside you there's someone who knows you're fucking yourself up and is protecting you. Listen to that voice.

Stop what you're doing and hear what that voice is telling you to do.

And then do it.

You can start by discussing these contradictions in IC and by finding a new IC if this one doesn't help you remove the defenses you have built.

*****

A further note on emasculation/unsexing:

I processed shame pretty quickly. With the first bout of shame, I verified that my anatomy was unchanged. I felt emasculated, but my parts were intact. They still seemed to function. I knew within minutes of my W's confession that I had definitely not been emasculated, no matter what I feared.

HB, of course, confirmed that but I embarked on HB fully expecting to function well enough for my own pleasure.

If you feel unsexed, I recommend reaching down and checking your anatomy. If it's unchanged, the problem is in your mind. If it has changed, see a good MD.

I understand being turned off sex with your WS. That is common and sensible. I understand being turned of sex with anyone. That, too, is pretty common, and arguably sensible. But that's protecting oneself, and it's very different from being unsexed.

If d-day did not include surgery, your unsexing is almost definitely in your mind, just as it was in mine, and you control your own mind, whether you accept responsibility for that or not.

*****

Yeah, this is more 2 X 4s, and there are more where these came from, but I hope every reader understands that I wield them because I believe every recipient has what it takes to heal and to stop the 2 X 4s from hurting them.

You - WE - are all stronger than you/we think.

[This message edited by sisoon at 12:48 PM, January 23rd (Saturday)]

It is absolutely true that it's possible that sex for some WSes was different, not better.

I do believe that this is true. I also believe that in most cases the sex was probably different and not better. That of course pre supposes that the sex life prior to the affair was healthy.

As I said, almost every first time with a new partner was not in the mind blowing category. It was way worse than what I had pre affair. And this was with some women that were 20 years younger than my EX and had rocking tight bodies. And before anyone beats me up, that was a phase and I am now dating a great woman a year older than me. The sex with her is great. But it was great with my EX pre affair. Comparing those would be both great and different. I would say post affair the sex sucked. I was not into it other than as a release and had horrific mind movies. So the sex with my now girlfriend versus my EX post affair is different and way better as the emotional component returned.

The thing is, especially in long term affairs, the BS will never really know. Brew does and she basically told him, but even she couldn’t utter the words he was better and she had to be drunk to confess what she did. My guess is that even when it’s alluded to right after DDay and they are uncertain they want their BS, the backtracking starts when the dust starts to settle and they are staring down the barrel of a messy divorce

So bottom line I believe that in all cases it is different, but better depends on the individual situation. But the BS bottom line can never trust what that really is

I can literally remember a little voice in my head telling my mind when it would think about the many negatives of the AP to "shut up and don't ruin it." The fantasy was all that separated me from devastating difficulties and depression that I simply did not feel I could handle.

While I still agree with the others who have outlined how as a WS I abandoned my husband in all ways, this from OIN is something I deeply relate to. I knew that the AP was less than my husband on some level. But, I pushed down those things and did a lot of justifying by elevating the AP on things (that by the way I had no real proof even existed in him) and by downplaying my husband and marriage.

It's perplexing to me how well you can fool yourself out of desperation.

This rings true to me as well:

As far as the sex goes I don’t think you can compare it apple to apples. Like everyone said there are many factors that contribute to good sex. My W’s A sex was defiantly an escape from reality, there was no surgery, cancer or hormone therapy there. The AP never bathed her or cleaned and dressed her surgical wounds. Why wouldn’t the sex be better if it was all rainbows and butterflies. I also think all those negative things she said about our sex life we’re just ways to justify it to herself.

I would also add that very generally speaking (meaning a lot of times, not all) sex is generally colored a lot by how we feel about someone. When we are propping the AP up in our head, we are going to prop up all our interactions, including sex.

But, in my own experience, great sex is about connection. I think most people who are in an affair are creating a false connection based on mirroring and projecting onto someone else. I think that's why you don't find a lot of WS's who have done even a modicum amount of work praising the AP or the sex. It's empty, and often the curtain is raised and you see it all for what it was.

I do not disagree with the presumption that most WS enjoy the sex at the time it is happening. Sex is mental. That doesn't make it the best sex ever. I think what it typically makes is two of the biggest asshole fools ever.

I tend to also think that one of the goals for those who decide to R is to create the marriage you both want. That means communicating about everything, including sex. There is no reason moving forward that you can't have the sex life that is the best sex ever together

In my experience, my WxGF and I had, for much of our relationship, a quite active, varied, imaginative sex life. We were both into fantasy stuff and explored a lot of kinks. BDSM. Swapping/swinging. Various role playing and such. Public sex. Every orifice and position we could dream up, and many we had to learn from books. She made a plaster cast of my johnson.

Then, the sex dried up. I asked for a BJ (from a woman who considered and still considers herself a connoisseur of male fluids) and she told me that my request was "gross". I tried to initiate and she told me that my timing was off. And the arguing and bickering and picking at me for every little thing. She lost her temper once over ice cream. Ice cream!

This went on for about 6-8 months, maybe a bit longer. I was confused. Thought I was the problem. Tried being nicer. More attentive. Nothing worked. I was playing her a song on the guitar, one that for years she told me she loved, like: "I love the way you play that." Then, one day: "You play that song completely without feeling or soul. It sounds mechanical and emotionless."

In hindsight, all of the clear signs of infidelity were there, but as we BS's all know, in the thick of things, it's difficult to get that perspective. I spent hours practicing guitar, trying to play it with more feeling, more inflection, more soul. Trying to see that gleam in her eye again when I played. It never worked.

In other words, it was like turning off a light switch. Nothing in me had changed. I was relatively young, fit and muscular, good career, avid musician, all the same things I had been from the time we met.

In hindsight, I now know that she was in a limerent A with her AP (the one she left me for). I met him. He was not an adonis or anything. Just an average guy.

Except on guitar. I heard him play once. He was shyte. But during her A, when he played, she looked at him the way she used to look at me when I played. That's when I realized how fucked up it all was. The man was objectively a shitty guitar player.

I say all of this to confirm that, from my experience, for women, "good sex" is the sex you're enjoying at the time, which is dependent on a host of emotional and situational factors. As they say, the main sexual organ is the brain. The "good sex" she used to have with me was replaced. She didn't want sex with me any more. Nothing changed objectively. Same two people. Same bodies. Same dick. Same personality. Same ES 335. What changed was subjective: WxGF's emotional radar was focused on somebody new.

So, yeah, I believe that, while she was in her A with the AP, the sex she had with him was better than the (occasional shitty) sex we had during that period. Was it "better" than the good sex we used to have, before her A? I don't know and don't care. She dumped me, I've moved on. In hindsight, separating like that was the best outcome for me. It was incredibly painful IRT, but over the long run I healed faster and moved on to a better relationship with somebody new.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 3:58 PM, January 26th (Tuesday)]

All I know is, infidelity sucks for betrayed spouses. Whether the sex was good for the waywards or not. They still had sex.

[This message edited by Mene at 11:50 PM, January 26th (Tuesday)]

I found it funny when my ex told me he was whipped. Said she fulfilled every fantasy he could have ever wanted. Mind you... I was open regarding sex and would ask him if he wanted something to tell me. I didn’t object to open dialogue about our sex life. He never communicated anything to me at all. Yet apparently allowed AP to be privy to all his fantasies. So I guess in my case it was better.

The better sex apparently had him doing and saying things in his affair so much so I thought we were speaking of a totally different person. The AP was so much like him he claimed, professed love to her in letters, just was a person who you would not have thought had a marriage anywhere. If better sex allows me to disregard my family and put another before it and become some love struck whipped puppy I will pass.

I’m sure it’s easy to have better sex with someone who lives alone without any shared responsibilities with you. Every encounter is a fun zone free of kids and real life encounters. Funny with all that fantasy sex and common interest and professing of love, etc. they are not together...hmmm!

I have been thinking about this topic again so I reread this thread.

I am torn between comments by HikingOut and GoldenR.

HikingOut said the following which helps me understand my WW's sex life with her AP during her affair. It also helps me understand why many remorseful WS say they look back at sex with AP as disgusting and repulsive:

"I would also add that very generally speaking (meaning a lot of times, not all) sex is generally colored a lot by how we feel about someone. When we are propping the AP up in our head, we are going to prop up all our interactions, including sex.

But, in my own experience, great sex is about connection. I think most people who are in an affair are creating a false connection based on mirroring and projecting onto someone else. I think that's why you don't find a lot of WS's who have done even a modicum amount of work praising the AP or the sex. It's empty, and often the curtain is raised and you see it all for what it was.

I do not disagree with the presumption that most WS enjoy the sex at the time it is happening. Sex is mental. That doesn't make it the best sex ever. I think what it typically makes is two of the biggest asshole fools ever."

BUT BUT BUT I am also haunted by thoughts that are more similar to those expressed by GoldenR:

"Better...different...worse...

For me, all of that pales in comparison to the fact that it was more intense and they wanted it more than they wanted their BS.

They may look back at it now and feel actual nausea. But nothing can change the fact that they will always remember loving it, craving it, when it was going on."

HikingOut's comments may be true but I am haunted by thoughts similar to GoldenR.

I am also haunted by another WS who admitted her sex life with her AP was more intense than sex with her BS. She said sex with her AP was not better but it was more intense.

I don't want my WW's sex life with her AP to be more intense even if it wasn't better.

My friend, I have been going back and forth on this for so long.

My own personal journey has led me to this:

WW had sex before meeting me and she enjoyed at least some of it. More than with me? Different than with me? Does it matter?

WW had sex with AP after "committing" to me. Did she enjoy it more than with me? Was it different than with me?

Whatever, sex is sex. It is mostly fun and exciting and exhilarating and pleasurable. I've gotten over that.

The fact that she had a connection with the other guy is what pisses me off. Sex is important to me, but for her, it is the connection.

The fact that she gave what was important to her to OM is what really ticks me off.

I've been able to get over the sex part. The connection is what I can't move past.

And for the record, I don't give a crap about "realizing years later that it was not real, blah, blah, blah" - it was real enough to affect actions and emotions.

I want to hear my wife say "I fucked up. I hurt you. I'm sorry and I will try to make it right". Maybe I'll forgive, maybe I won't - but I need her to be honest.

But she says "it wasn't real, what I have with you is real" ARRRGGGGGH!!!! I hate being patronized (I'm not trying to generalize here, just referring to my own situation)

Edit to add: I was destroyed by by WW having sex with OM when I first found out. My current mindset is 10 years removed.

[This message edited by LostOpportunities20 at 3:49 PM, February 5th (Friday)]

nothing can change the fact that they will always remember loving it, craving it

Wait, how would he have any idea that "nothing can change the fact"? This is simply false. Many things change it. And then it's changed--even as remembered many times.

The things that people have NOT lived but say they know here on SI make me laugh. Do you just have to say you know to actually know? Is the bar that low? Cause then I know a whole helluva lot! I actually might know everything about everything!

LostOpportunities20,

Hasn't your wife said ""I fucked up. I hurt you. I'm sorry and I will try to make it right" ? Did you tell her this is what you need to hear ?

Do you think your wife is remorseful about her affair ?

How are you and your marriage ten years after the A ?

In retrospect do you wish you would have divorced her right away after Dday ?

How long did it take to get over the destruction caused by the sexual component of your wife's affair ?

[This message edited by Username123 at 4:47 PM, February 5th (Friday)]