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My husband will not come completely clean. Until I find the undeniable truth. I don't have undeniable truth that they slept together but feel that they did. They had a 47 day "friendship", "just someone to talk to"... But they hung out six times all for five hours at a time. They both claim is was just listening to music in his truck and talking about life. I don't buy it. Mostly because he denied so much until he couldn't anymore because I had the undeniable truth. Thing is,is that I found songs they sent to each other. All along the lines of sleeping together, and wanting each other ECT.. including "Run to you" by Brian Adams which is literally about cheating on your spouse. Dd was almost four months ago. Him not admitting to it is killing me. Just friends do not talk on the phone and text as much as they did in 47 days. The texting was all day while he was at work with the occasional phone call and in the evenings because I work overnight there would be phone calls that were up to 7 hours long. And then the 6 Hangouts. I'm not stupid.

I’m sorry you are facing this situation in your marriage.

It is almost impossible to get some cheaters to tell the truth. The cheater doesn’t understand the damage they are causing by continuing to lie.

Just know that it’s not the affair that destroys the marriage (but in some ways) it is the behavior after Dday that permanently destroys the marriage.

My experience is similar to yours. My H had a 4 year EA that I knew about from the moment I met this girl. She was madly in love with my H. It was obvious. Yet my H refused to admit it. Refused to admit this “friendship” crossed the line.

It finally ended and it was swept under the rug. Never mentioned again. Fast forward 15 years later and he’s having a typical mid-life crisis affair. Except this time he wants a D.

Because he got away with it the first time it was easy to do again. Except this one escalated to him wanting a D. The second OW told me he admitted to her the first EA was wrong but that no one was going to tell him who he could be friends with.

I think you should have one final attempt with your H snd tell him that the marriage is hanging by a thread and you expect him to be completely honest with you. If you find out differently down the road the marriage will be destroyed. The cheater needs the understand what is on the table.

You then ask him “did you have sex with the OW”. If he says no and you believe him then its all good. However if you feel he is lying you end the discussion. Leave the room and tell him you were not kidding he needed to tell the truth.

Then Read up on the 180 and implement it. Stop being his wife due to the disrespect he showed you.

Get yourself a really good counselor to support you. It can save your sanity.

And lastly, if they hung out together for multiple hours then there was most likely sexual interaction. If they sent each other songs that suggest cheating then logically it would make sense they acted on it given the opportunities they had.

If your husband refuses to admit that it was at least an emotional affair, then you really have very little to work with in terms of reconciling with him. If you cannot get him to admit that he was wrong and acted inappropriately with this woman, then you know that this is going to permanently impact your marriage.

True reconciliation will not occur because you will always have resentment towards him for not being honest. Please do not be me and allow your husband to sweep this under the rug. He needs to stop being a coward and admit to what he has done or he needs to understand the permanent damage he is inflicting on you and your marriage.

I hope this helps you. You may not be able to get him to be completely honest and truthful with you, but you then have to make it known to him that the consequences for his continued lying will be nothing short of permanent.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 11:21 AM, May 23rd (Sunday)]

He's proven himself to be deceitful therefore you can't trust his word anymore.

Insist on a polygraph test. Just the prospect of taking the test often brings forth the truth.

It doesn't matter if you believe in their accuracy it only matters that he believes you do (bluff if necessary).

The tests are not used in court but they are used in business, certain government agencies, and with child sex offenders out on parole.

$400+ depending on where you live.

Ultimately you can’t make them tell you, or not easily anyway. There is also the point that you can’t ever know if what they have said is the truth or not. Sometimes you have to accept that you may never know everything.

So you have to take what you do know, and the behaviour afterwards and decide how you feel about that. It’s not court, you do not have to prove to him that he did it to leave and go if that’s what you choose and it’s perfectly ok to say to him that dishonesty is as much a dealbreaker as the affair, or that his inappropriate friendship is as much of a dealbreaker as if he did have sex with her.

You are explaining this as past tense am I correct? Do you think this had ended and if so what makes you think that?

I remember this well.My XWH never admitted the truth.Deny,deny,deny.He actually DARVO'd me.I was pregnant at the time.I thought I was going crazy with all the gaslighting and mind games going on.I just wanted the truth.He didn't lie to preserve the relationship between us.He lied for himself.Not wanting to be the bad guy.Eventually my brother in law caught him red handed and had the damning evidence and even when his lies were crumbling around him he still denied it then blamed me.Don't let him paint a picture of you like you're crazy.All of us reading this know just as well as you that you are not imagining it.You cannot control him.You can only control you.Now is the time to prepare for the worst.It will be the only way for a resolution to come forward.Whether it be D or R the only way for this to resolve or end depends on your actions at this point.It's time to be strong.Read tactical primer and the 180.At this point it's essential for you to protect yourself.Now is not the time to gauge his reaction to it.Don't throw this out like a threat because he already had pushed the limit and doesn't respect you.The only way for him to respect you eventually is for you to follow through without waiting for him to make up his mind or respond . It's your life take control back.He isn't open to communicating with you right now.He has broken his word to you.I hope you can muster up enough courage to what comes next.What needs to be done.Good luck and we are all wishing the best for you.Hugs for now.

This is a post by Joseph, a member of the now defunct BAN Message Board. He wrote to this letter to his wife to explain why he asked for details of her affair. Many BS have rewritten it in their own words and given it to the WS. https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/healing_library/confrontation/joseph.asp

You can also ask him for a timeline of his emotional affair (do not shy away from using the word affair because that's what it is even if he won't admit to anything sexual).

Let him know that the truth will eventually come out and that lies kill the marriage more than the affair. That he is not protecting you with his lies he is killing any hope for building trust.

Tell him that if he wants you to believe him then he needs to take a poloygraph.

I am so sorry you are experiencing this. Trust your gut. Always trust your gut. It rarely will be wrong. In my experience, “someone to talk to” is never just talking, whether it be cyber-related or in-person. In my case, which is very similar, there was more going on than just talking. Wishing you well.

I would not bother with Joseph's letter. As BSs, we are not dealing with folks that have much of a conscience or empathy and that letter is designed to appeal to a person that does have these. It is worthless,IMO.

The reality is that many, probably most cheaters never come clean. And, there is zero one can do about it, except leave them, trusting what you intuitively know.

Clearly, he cheated. No one in his or her right mind would believe otherwise from what you describe.

Many of us have never gotten the truth from the cheater.

Yes I am posting this as a past tense. I know it has stopped as our phones are now completely linked and I can see from my phone every move he makes, every text he sends, and every app and website he visits. Also, The way he was able to hang out with her is because he worked early in the morning and he would take our kids to his mom's the night before so they didn't have to get up early before school. But now he no longer has that option. He has to take them in the morning. So now he's not alone in the evenings while I'm at work 3 days a week. He has told me he is sorry and has aknowleged it as an emotional affair. He says he feels terrible and things have been great, except when they are not and I get in my head. I believed the OW at first when she told me it wasn't physical that she knew he was married and she would never cross that line but then I later found out that she was lying when she told me she didn't know that I didn't know about their friendship. He told me that he told her that I don't know because that I would be mad. So to me I just feel like her lying about that discredits the other thing she told me. But then I wonder if she was just trying to make herself look better lying just about that. And he has admitted some things you know whenever I asked whose idea it was to hang out he admitted that it was his. The first few months I felt with my gut that they did not sleep together until I recently found those songs. Now I 100% believe that they did. And again I don't have 100% proof that they sent those songs to each other, these are all songs I found around the time they were hanging out in his YouTube history and things that he searched or just things that he clicked on making it look like it was a link she sent him to listen to. But I guess I don't know for sure. But just the context of the songs around that time just don't add up. That's for the recommendation on things to read and for all of your other input. I understand why this happened in our marriage but I'm not excusing it. I know that things were rocky and we weren't meeting each other's needs and we were putting our kids first and everything else in life got in the way that we didn't put our marriage first. But I was stronger than him and I had better coping skills than him. He brought forth his concerns quite a few times and I just blew them off I didn't really listen to him so I see why it happened. I just wish he told me he wanted a divorce to get me to really wake up and fix these things. To show me that he was serious. I didn't want him to do something like this. This is much worse. I've told him I wanted him to go to IC and that is completely out of the question for him. But he clearly needs to learn some coping mechanisms and how to deal with things in a reasonable manner. I'm still working on eventually trying to get him to go.

I usually oppose polygraphs, because I think human beings are better lie detectors than machines are. But you pretty much think your H is lying about a simple yes/no question. A polygraph may be just the thing.

OTOH, how useful is a forced confession? Can a person who has to be forced to tell the truth really commit to doing the work of R?

I told my W repeatedly, 'If you reveal something (that is a potential M ender) now, I may walk. If it comes out down the road, I will walk. That may work for your H.

Again with the OTOH: I thought my ultimatum worked with my W, but a few years ago, she told me that she had decided to tell the truth to me, no matter what the consequences were, so she held nothing back from d-day on.

IOW, IDK how to make a WS tell the truth.

*****

I think some large number of WSes do know they did wrong and do want to repair the Ms, though sometimes it's difficult to distinguish between good and bad candidates for R.

Sometimes I read Joseph's letter as having a whining edge to it, and I hate it. Other times, it seems like a strong statement.

I prefer Things that Every WS Needs to Know - https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=324250. I suggest reading it.

If it makes sense to you, I suggest printing it off, removing the SI identification, and asking your H to read it. Do not tell him about SI - it's just something you found on the web.

If you can bring yourself to do it, tell him he needs to adhere to what the document recommends or you'll leave - but you have to leave if he refuses.

[This message edited by sisoon at 10:18 AM, May 23rd (Sunday)]

Have you considered asking the affair partner? Sometimes, they are so pissed or have been misled, that they are truthful. Not often, but what would be the downside?

Stinger

I have talked to her, I posted another reply stating that conversation. She is a liar and trying to save face.

At the end of the day you can only trust yourself. Period. It’s the only 100% certainty.

If you are willing to R w/ him whether he had sex with her or not, it MAY become moot. By that I mean he can deny it all he wants and you won’t believe it. And that is okay and possibly acceptable to you if he changes and makes amends and repairs the damage he caused. If he continues he’s to prove he is trustworthy and fully vested in the marriage you can heal.

However you will always believe he’s not 100% honest on this issue. And if you choose to accept that - it’s ok.

Others may disagree with me. Thats ok too. Many reconciled happy spouses make a choice to move beyond the past and start anew in some way.

You cannot make him tell you the truth. He may be actually telling you the truth (though it’s suspect) or he may be fearful of telling you the truth. Whatever it is - you cannot change it.

Sometimes for your own sanity you just need to accept the situation.

Sisoon, as usual, hits it spot on (as others have).

A simple ultimatum. Tell me now or I walk. File and let it be known there's no possibility of turning back until you are convinced you have the full story.

Upfront R requires truth. He's not R material.

Being a marriage warden gets you what?

I think your gut is likely 100 percent correct. I think I would have a hard time believing otherwise.

You can't control what he does. You can only control yourself and what you do. If it were me I would figure out my boundaries, and express those things.

I would probably tell him this:

"Okay, I understand you say I have everything, but I do not feel like I ever will. This is not acceptable to me and I am not going to move forward with the marriage under these conditions".

Then 180 him (see the healing library for info). This is not a manipulation or a way to get him to do something. This is to protect yourself from further hurt and damage. Though, I will say if you take this route, he will probably start revealing more. Assume at first it's more trickle truth. "I kissed her once" is practically in the cheaters handbook. Keep your stance towards your boundaries until you feel you have the truth or you divorce, whichever comes first.

I think you can consider whether you want to live with it or not, but I would not advise that. Mostly because then I think you are allowing rugsweeping and I am under the belief that a WS needs to work on themself fully in order to be a safe partner moving forward. He is not going to do that if he can't even admit what happened.

Is this woman married? Have you spoken to her spouse?

He knows you have access to everything on his phone. Assuming he's not stupid, he won't use the phone as a way to speak to her.

Start looking for a burner phone.

When you are dealing with an unremorseful WS, you have no reason to believe they're not in contact with their AP.

Hellfire

He has no way to purchase or pay for a burner phone without me seeing. I handle all the finances. Bank account login, I check both our credit often so there is no hidden credit cards. He is remorseful just of course what he said, he wanted to keep it hidden and not be honest to avoid hurting me? Is that not a thing? He has apologized alot, and things have been good until I have my bad days but even when I do he talks to me and comforts me.

He knows you have access to everything on his phone. Assuming he's not stupid, he won't use the phone as a way to speak to her.

Mine jumped from app to app to app on her phone, some very cleverly hidden (others not so much). The minute they know a way that you are checking up on them assume they have come up with a plan to circumvent it. Their worst fear is not letting you down; it's getting caught. They will do anything (except stop what they are doing wrong) to avoid it.

Some WS are not like this, but if you suspect yours is like this... really think about walking away. Getting caught means they just need to try harder not to next time.