SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Justsomeguy

your post:

Posted: 2:53 AM, July 27th (Tuesday), 2021

Reminded me of Bowen in DragonHeart!

"A knight of the Old Code"

Sorry, but saying trickle truth is expected, and is a sign a WS is coming around, is like telling an abused wife... whose husband is in therapy to no longer be abusive...that it's ok if he hits you a few more times, because that's to be expected,until he gets a little better. It's like saying..hey, he's just kicking you occasionally, instead punching you, so he's trying to be better,have some patience.

Infidelity is abuse. A WS who is TTing is continuing to abuse their spouse.

Whether it's common,or not, a BS should never be told that further abuse is a good thing.

[This message edited by HellFire at 4:41 PM, July 27th (Tuesday)]

It's sad that when a new person posts in the R forum, they still end up feeling pressured to jump right to divorce. Just take what you need and leave the rest, right?

To be fair, divorce is always the right answer to infidelity. Reconciliation can also be a right answer, but divorce is always completely justified and guaranteed to get that person out of infidelity and away from the trickle-truth mind-game "I love you but I'm not in love with you" "My toxic shame keeps me from being honest" "I don't know how to google the answers to how to fix this or read any books about it" foolishness that defines the aftermath of DDay.

One has the option of noping out of all this time where the WS is too fucked up to develop remorse and further damages the BS by choosing divorce. It is a kindness to help a BS come to the conclusion that divorce is a valid option. Even if you're pro-R, you won't likely get there unless divorce is a valid option in your mind and your WS knows it. Sadly.

Broken:

I second guess myself and believe I am causing more damage with my constant interrogations.

I only have a few more months experience with A than you do, and I thought the same thing, that my asking questions was causing more problems. My total shit-stain of an MC enabled my WW to be strong and not answer questions, which by the way if you have not seen an MC then DON'T. Made things much worse for me.

Anyway, why do you say that? Is getting answers helpful to you? I have difficulties early on as well with my WW. But what does she do/say that makes you think you're making it worse?

FWIW I'm 10 months out from D-Day and just in this last month has my WW come around. Not completely, but somewhat. I had like 8 to 9 months of a defiant, defensive, uncooperative, aloof, difficult WW with which I was basically trying to drag her into R. Only in the last month have I started to grow tired of this shit and consider alternatives to R.

Your WW hasn't left yet, and I'm guessing she doesn't want to leave, so it might be a few months more until you've had it with that same shit.

Also I'll submit to you that I get comfort in knowing that there is no statute of limitations on A. No expiration date on the consequences of cheating. You're not committing to anything with decisions you make now.

To be fair, divorce is always the right answer to infidelity. Reconciliation can also be a right answer, but divorce is always completely justified and guaranteed to get that person out of infidelity and away from the trickle-truth mind-game "I love you but I'm not in love with you" "My toxic shame keeps me from being honest" "I don't know how to google the answers to how to fix this or read any books about it" foolishness that defines the aftermath of DDay.

Thumbs up, Devastated. Incisive.

Sorry, but saying trickle truth is expected, and is a sign a WS is coming around, is like telling an abused wife... whose husband is in therapy to no longer be abusive...that it's ok if he hits you a few more times, because that's to be expected,until he gets a little better. It's like saying..hey, he's just kicking you occasionally, instead punching you, so he's trying to be better,have some patience.

Bingo, Hellfire. Said it better than I did.

This new information might not be a bad sign. You could look at it as your WW becoming more honest and forthcoming with you. That could be a sign of effort and of reestablishing rapport. WS's don't turn it around in a day. It takes time.

I won't be able to agree much with this.

Honesty is not something that can be rated that much. She is either honest or she is not. In fact, lies with truth in them are much bigger and more dangerous than pure lies. A pure lie is less believable.

It takes less than a day to decide to be honest, maybe not the first day but deciding it takes very short time, until then, you are not being honest.

Those we call liars aren't always lying. Those we call cheaters aren't always fucking someone other than their spouse.

Trickle Truth isn't about starting to be honest, it's about having to tell a crumb of truth where lying isn't enough. And it is to see how much is enough for the BS. Thus, the remaining part can continue to be hidden.

[This message edited by guvensiz at 5:26 PM, July 27th (Tuesday)]

To be fair, divorce is always the right answer to infidelity.

To really be fair, I think we need to recognize that R is the right answer for some people, D is the right answer for others, and gathering more info is the right answer for still others.

I have no idea how many of us fall into each group.

I think DevastatedDee's point was that if divorce is the default -- and is the default bar/default advice given by therapists to abused betrayed spouses -- then betrayed spouses can work from there, and will probably be better off either way.

Why? Because they can immediately establish some modicum of equilibrium, gain some agency and autonomy that has been denied to them, and gain some physical room and much-needed head space to think without the constant pressure of a wayward spouse still trickle truthing, footdragging, still lost in the fog, still minimizing, still justifying, still blameshifting, still gaslighting ... while also pushing to "move on" "forgive and forget" and rugsweep.

Which we know happens in most cases, rather than few cases.

In my view, if this were the default, betrayed spouses could be much more demanding about their expectations for R from the outset, and it puts a wayward on their heels immediately to either step up and "do the work" or call it a day.

To me, this actually makes R much more likely than the reverse-engineered process of starting with R, or being in limbo and trying to muddle through to R.

For example, one of the biggest "star" couples on the reconciliation circuit were divorced for several years after the WW's infidelity. The default was divorce. The husband simply didn't put up with it. The WW thought she knew better, liked the attention she was getting from other men, and readily agreed to a divorce.

The betrayed husband moved on with his life. After a few years, the WW realized how empty her "Looking for Mr. Goodbar" life was and tried to approach her now ex-husband. He laughed in her face.

So she went back to the drawing board. It was only after the WW did a ton of work did she even become the kind of person her betrayed husband would even give the time of day. Even then, it took a tremendous effort and consistent actions for the WW to convince the BH to give it another try. Which he finally did. Now they are happily remarried, to each other. This is a real reconciliation, or as Desmond Tutu would say not a "surface reconciliation."

Divorce was the default, and it got good results in terms of R.

EDIT TO ADD: And if I had known this from the outset, I think it would have saved me a lot of heartache, and honestly my WW a lot of heartache. Instead I was pushed by an MC to rugsweep. And I was pushed by people around me to "give it time." Who knows what would have happened had I elected instead to press ahead with D right after D-Day? I sense that things would have gone better. I would not have ended up in limbo, I would not have had to endure a WW dragging her feet for three years on a timeline, playing mind games with a poly, pushing me to the brink of a heart attack. I would not have endured her other mind games and the ridiculous things that have come out of her mouth. The games would have just ... stopped. I might not be happy-go-lucky Mr. Divorced. But I wouldn't have had to put up with things like I have.

[This message edited by Thumos at 2:32 PM, July 28th (Wednesday)]

Yep, Thumos got what I was saying 100%.

Even for those who R successfully, divorce still wouldn't have been the wrong answer post DDay. There is no one person out there for everyone. There are no soulmates. No one is married to the only human being they could ever love. To attempt R is to try and bestow a profound and nearly sacred gift upon someone who will not be worthy of it for at least a couple of years, if ever. That's a choice that one can make and it can work with the right BS and WS. But, it should not be the default choice for reasons that Thumos articulated so well.

There is no one person out there for everyone. There are no soulmates. No one is married to the only human being they could ever love.

Dang. So true. I make this point often to men (and sometimes to women) and I think people misunderstand me as saying, "Kick her to the curb and find a newer, younger model."

That's not what I'm saying. The old saying "Plenty of fish in the sea" doesn't do it justice, either.

What I've said is that in your close geographic proximity there are dozens of women (or men) you would be highly compatible with, attracted to, and find highly pleasurable and gratifying as a life partner. You'll never meet them all and probably only a handful. And you'd certainly never be able to develop relationships with them all even if you met them.

You just happened to develop a relationship this "one" -- your wayward spouse -- out of many possibilities based probably on shared interests, meeting in college or soon after, shared profession, shared geography, and very often shared family backgrounds, religion or ethnicity.

There's nothing special about a wayward spouse, certainly nothing special at all after infidelity aside from the tremendous pain they have inflicted on you.

There's nothing special about you, either.

This is why it is very important to "de-pedestalize" your wayward wife or wayward husband. They have already knocked themselves off the imaginary pedestal in any case. And this is why I'm always using George Orwell's quote "To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle."

See the real person in front of you, not the projection of your husband or wife you have been walking around with.

Once they commit adultery, you have to see with new eyes. You have to see the real person.

I've also talked in the past about how I believe most people adopt a persona, for good or ill, in their teens and twenties. It's like putting on a costume. There's nothing wrong with this. It's part of adapting to adult life.

But over a few decades, the psychic drain of this persona means the costume starts to wear thin and grow shabby.

For some people, this is a positive liberating experience and they can allow more and more of their authentic self to just be as the costume falls apart. For others, this is a terrifying experience and part of what I believe precipitates a midlife crisis. They don't really like who they are under that deteriorating costume. And they worry no one else will like who they are.

Esther Perel thinks adultery is a form of empowerment in "rediscovering" your true self, or a part of your self you have lost. I think it's the opposite. I think it's running away in horror from the process of your carefully curated persona falling apart because at midlife you don't have the psychic energy to sustain it anymore. So in response adulterers seek to "patch up" the shabby costume in a form of playacting with another person.

Some people embrace the inevitable existential crisis of midlife. Some people run screaming away from it.

The fact is, you can have "the magic" of a good relationship again -- and if we're all being really honest here and not trying to whistle past the graveyard -- we will admit that "magic" is probably about even odds or better with someone else aside from your WS.

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:55 PM, July 28th (Wednesday)]

Wow! That was quite a bit of outrageous outrage, huh??

Exactly where should a BS who is primarily interested in R post, if not the Reconciliation section? We have other sections. But the OP chose this one. I think it's safe to assume he's wanting to work on the marriage. And frankly, it doesn't matter if we like it or if we agree with it or if we think there's never a good reason for it... the truth seldom comes out in one fell swoop.

For those of us who have experienced R and all that goes with it, no.. trickle truth is not unexpected. Neither is broken contact. {gasp!}

WS's are people who are fucked up enough in their minds to CHOOSE perfidy and betrayal. Some of them do snap back remarkably fast, but most have been walking around with their head screwed on wrong for a considerable amount of time. I don't think it's unrealistic to expect it to take time and that there will be errors for the WS who does manage to make corrections. It would be AWESOME if we all had a perfect WS on DDay, but that's just not the reality of the situation.

Now, this OP has made 2 posts and he's been gone for 2 days now. Where can he go to find out about R if not here?

I think he got a lot of real talk, and very little happy clappy sugarcoating. Real talk, including from you CT. I think it's healthy. We do people no favors at all in my view to set the bar for adult behavior so low as to say we must be willing to accept continued abuse piled on top of initial toxic abuse. Just my opinion.

“A wonderful place to share your struggles, success stories, and triggers while trying to reconcile. There is to be no name calling in this forum. Venting is to be limited to you and/or your partner. Please post respectfully and constructively keeping in mind the goal for this forum is to reconcile. It's a long road, but you can do it!”

Even though I agree with everything Devastated and Thumos said about D in the case of infidelity, and I understand the intent behind the comments, I have to second CT’s lament: the OP came here to the R forum looking for constructive advice not a lecture on why D should always be a viable alternative if he wants to R. He has already made his decision. And it doesn’t matter whether I believe he should be trying to R. It’s his life. His decision. And I respect his decision. At least to me, constructive advice does include informing of the caution and pitfalls on the road to recovery and R that we know about while respecting his path to work on his M, and the purpose of the forum. I know sometimes it can be very frustrating as you know in your bones that this BS should not be attempting to work on his/her M, and so very tempting to ignore the intent of the forum just to save the BS from himself/herself. BTDT. But I agree with CT that the OP deserves a place to post and have his decision respected. Just my two cents and probably not worth that much. Ha!

But I agree with CT that the OP deserves a place to post and have his decision respected. Just my two cents and probably not worth that much. Ha!

Well absolutely, fareast, but I think a lot of people in this particular thread were trying to help the BS understand he's not in any kind of reconciliation right now and what the steps might be if he wants to really get to that point. If I read the OP's original post correctly, his WW is more than likely not being authentic and truthful with him at all.

If I recall correctly, he also told us here on this thread that his WW only just recently dropped another trickle truth bomb on him: that she was messaging inappropriately with yet another man aside from the one she had the alleged ONS with.

He's in danger of rugsweeping bigtime. Surely, we would want to at least flag that for him so he can consider it?

You may be correct that what Devastated and myself wrote toward the end of the thread was a potential t/j. I was reacting to her, grokking what she was laying down, and unfortunately I have diarrhea of the keyboard. In any case, I thought it actually might be helpful in the R forum to learn that one of the "star" couples who root for R themselves share their story, and it's one of divorce first and then the WW working hard to prove worthy of a second chance. It struck me that their own story might actually be the most direct route to a successful R.

[This message edited by Thumos at 7:39 PM, July 28th (Wednesday)]

Hello, Brokenness. Welcome to the greatest club that no one ever wanted to join. I'm sorry you've had to find us here.

I certainly encourage you to come back and post again. While replies can often be overwhelming, the vast majority of folks here mean well and hope to help you find your best path forward.

For most people, the betrayal of infidelity is a profound shock and a severe emotional and psychological trauma. What you've been going through is quite normal. Take some time and do a little research on post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and I think you'll find a few of the symptoms quite familiar.

One of the most important things you can do for yourself right now is to focus on you, your recovery and healing. See your PCP and let him know what you're going through. Chances are, he's heard it before. A good IC (individual counsellor) can also help your recovery and healing. Eat healthy foods, "hit the gym," get back to some old hobbies, whatever. Forget about reconciliation and forgiveness for the immediate (long-term) future.

If you look at my tag-line you'll see that I'm heading towards a divorce. My stbx also had a ONS at a work function (a trade-show out-of-town). Being suspicious, I picked up her phone one Sunday afternoon in April of 2015 and found enough text message with the OM to confirm my suspicions.

My son was only 4yo at the time. Hardly two months after d-day, I was calling lawyers and seriously looking into a divorce. I couldn't pull the trigger, though. I couldn't bear the thought of my son's world being ripped apart. Today, I'm much more okay with it. In fact, I'm quite happier.

The first week I was faced with her telling me she was not in love with me anymore and we should seperate as I would never forgive her anyway.

She had been unhappy for over 12 months and out of love even longer.

Yeah... that's gotta fucking hurt. One of two things might be going on here. Wayward spouses have a habit of rewriting the history of their marriages and shifting blame on to their marriages and/or betrayed spouses in order to justify choices they know to be inherently wrong. On the other hand, she might be telling you the truth, that she was, like my own stbx, giving separation or divorce serious consideration. If that's the truth, as believe with my own story, this was your wife breaking away.

The more I press her for information, the more this pushes her away and I know that the response will be that I should cut & run but each time I've taken the hard stance, it emotionally breaks me. I second guess myself and believe I am causing more damage with my constant interrogations.

It seems to me that more often than not a WS's behavior after discovery can do more harm than the betrayal itself. Whether it's an affair going further underground, continued lies and obfuscations, defensiveness, deflections, blame-shifting, gas-lighting or just general assholery, all those little traumas end up causing more and more damage.

Most of us second guess ourselves and for very good reasons; infidelity is crazy-making shit. There's a great essay in the "Articles" section of The Healing Library (see link in yellow-shaded area at the top-left of the page) entitled: "Joseph's Letter." Even if you don't give your WW a copy, it's a great read.

I just don't know if I'll ever get passed the image of another man screwing my wife. I also worry that we will slowly drift back into our old life and then I'll start to just feel resentment towards her. I know our relationship will always be stained with infidelity and it has lost it's innocents but is there really a light at the end of the tunnel?

You'll get rid of those images. Eventually. When you're give-a-shit-o-meter gets pegged, you stop caring.

Slowly drifting back into your "old life" is certainly a possibility. There is, however, "light at the end of the tunnel." Some couples are capable of reconciliation and building a new version of their marriage. Some WS are either unwilling or unable to do the work that R requires. Some BS, like yours truly, eventually figure out that they'd be happier divorced. Either way, the light is yours to create, brother.

Focus on you, Brokenness. Step-back and detach from your WW, watch and observe what she does with the opportunity you've given her. Focus on your recovery and healing. It took me a good ten months just to recover and years, my friend, to heal. Find your own peace of mind, body and spirit, for, ultimately, we are all responsible for our own happiness and well-being.

Keep reading and keep posting. Stay strong.

You need what you need. You didn’t ask to be put in this position. From what I’ve seen rugsweep can result in long term problems and heartburn.

You seem to be afraid of making her mad and pushing her away. She had no qualms about doing that to you did she?

What is the suggestion expected from us in the R forum? "Close your eyes and continue your M?"

We get it, he wants to continue his M but he thinks he's in R when he isn't, he just wants it. As a newcomer to SI, probably he looks at the title and thinks this forum is appropriate.

I wrote in the first paragraph of my first answer that the thread should opened in JFO but then I deleted it. If I'm not mistaken, someone wrote this later.

We can also say here what needs to be said for R, including filing for divorce. I, for example, think that the most effective methods for R are actions that show that marriage can be given up. Considering that WW is not R material in the face of developments, we can also suggest him D.

The "Reconciliation Forum" can be a bit of a misnomer as most want to reconcile, but that does not make it possible. How do you explain to a newbie this painful concept that "Yes, you are here because you want to save your M, but SURPRISE! You have no control over that"? Nobody handles that well when they hear it. Ever. You almost have to live it to understand it. I hope you'll stick with the process, Brokenness.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 8:58 AM, July 29th (Thursday)]

Brokenness

I apologize for getting lost in the weeds here, but until your WW is a candidate for R then S or D is the option in front of you. You have to be willing to lose the M to save it. Don’t tip toe through this, I tried it doesn’t work.

When I found SI, too late, I was in false R for 2 months and it sucks Brother. I decided I’m taking control of my life and outcome of this going forward. I put my foot down and told her not to speak to me, tell it to the lawyer.

She came to me broken and begged for R, she has followed every requirement for R, a little over 18 months. It hasn’t been easy or perfect, it’s a hard bumpy road. I wish you the best and hope you return to update us.

Looks like another one got chased off.