SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I did not expect that I will cause such a storm on the forum. After my recent experiences with forums of this type, I expected to get the ass up for trying to save a relationship at all. I already said it, but I will repeat it: I'm glad I took the risk and decided to post. You are awesome! Your response is so great and so wise that I started taking notes! I can't even express how grateful I am!

Yeah, he wants to feel all edgy and dangerous by screwing in the bushes (really? this is A GROWN MAN??? NOT A DESPERATE HORNY TEENAGER???) but,
HE DOESN'T WANT *YOU* SCREWING IN THE BUSHES.
THAT FEELS ALL KINDS OF UNCOMFORTABLE AND UNSAFE TO HIM. Too strange. Too strong. Too risky. Too unpredictable.
EVEN IF YOU'RE SCREWING HIM, IN THE BUSHES.

He remembers. Damned skippy, he remembers.

Also, he wants to feel 'dirty.'
BUT HE DOESN'T WANT YOU TO FEEL 'DIRTY,' NOT FOR YOURSELF, AND ESPECIALLY NOT TO HIM.

Honey, he's simply not man enough to handle your full sexuality.

He's got to slice and dice women up into Madonnas and Whores

At the beginning of our relationship (about 20 years ago), I tried to fuck him in the train. He disagreed for fear that someone would see us. I realized then that I had no chance of having sex with him in a public place. I accepted that and gave up on it. Throughout our relationship, he obsessively covered the windows so that no outsiders sees him parading in his underwear. Now that he has so easily surpassed his own boundaries, the subject of outdoor sex has back on the agenda. Of course, I'm not an exhibitionist, so I assume we would choose a relatively safe place for this. When I suggested that, he said that he "respects me too much to this"... Well... I didn't notice too much of that respect when he was fucking someone else in the bushes.
When asked about erotic fantasies, he replies that he does not have any and is not picky (after choosing his last sexual partner, I was able to figure that out myself). However, he was addicted to porn. I'm not sure if it has anything to do with the fantasy, but I found it strange.
After the DD, I asked him several times if they had had oral sex. Each time he said "no". One day he began to open up and answer questions more honestly. I decided to use this moment to ask this question again. To my surprise, the answer has changed. I shocked him for not being honest about it beforehand, and he replied that he "pushed it out of his mind and only now remembered it." Really?

my husband admitted that he knew what the hell that he was doing,
that he did it intentionally

I'm not stupid and I know what he did was intentional, otherwise why would he buy condoms? When I tell him about it, he says he "bought them just in case. He wanted to be safe." It irritates me that he thinks me so naive, but I want to treat him as an equal partner and I wait for him to appreciate it one day and throw everything out himself. However, I am starting to lack patience... On the other hand, my family thinks that I dig it up too much and that I should let it go. Well... I do not know...

Of course he back pedaled furiously,
DENY DENY DENY!
and actually *threatened* me with all kinds of Bad Outcomes

My H openly admits that it was his decision, that he made a mistake, that it had nothing to do with me, and that the stupid and blind one was him. He does not deny responsibility, although he does not seem to have fully assumed it yet. However, recently asked at work to stay overtime until late, he replied that he had not arranged that with me. When his surprised supervisor asked what I had to do with it, my husband admitted what he had done and said that he didn't want to stress me out.
Often, when I make accusations that he is not entirely honest, he replies that it is not easy for him, because he has never opened up to anyone (which is also not entirely true, because his affair began with such an "opening") and that it is only being learned, that everything will come with time, etc. But the longer it takes, the more tired I get.

It's a long post Probably also chaotic.

PS:

We so need a 'Like' button

I agree :)

Second it seems very often that the OW (other woman) is less than - less than the spouse and less than the kind of person our spouse would normally be attracted to. Looks, morals, behavior, lifestyle etc - the affair is with a "lesser" person.

Once, I found a similar statement and I have to admit that it allowed me to endure difficult times. Although I probably didn't fully believe it, I rather told myself it to feel better.
Recently, I told him that I sometimes wish he had had the opportunity to live with her as they had planned. I would probably have recovered by now, maybe she would start to make a life with someone else, our son would hate him, and he would be stuck in a relationship with a vulgar girl-peasant.

The OW is easily replaced and is nothing special.

My husband's affair made me believe that everyone is easy to replace in his life - so am I (if not primarily).

He actually told me "I only married him for other reasons than love".

I heard that I was with him to have a "whipping boy". That I wanted his money (when we met we were both poor), that he felt used by me and unnecessary at the same time. This sentence puzzles me to this day. And he called our intimate life "hopeless". Well, I don't suck on newly met guys in the bushes, so that might be the reason ;)

The wonderful SI staff BUMPED a thread that you may be interested in reading. I know it has helped MANY of us BW's!

It is titled "honey, they always affair down". It is in the Just Found Out Forum.

The wonderful SI staff BUMPED a thread that you may be interested in reading. I know it has helped MANY of us BW's!

Ooooh! I'll have a look Thank you!

Ha! I live this statement:

What’s is attractive about the OW is that they are the sickest, the weakest, the most injured of the pack

Ahhhhh...you did read it...cool !

I am so sorry that you are in such pain right now. My counselor also told me to read that book Just Friends--- not everything in that book is directly related to you-- I was hurt reading that book also. I never wanted to know the dirty details of what they did together. My heart would not be able to bear it. I knew enough and that was all that was needed. He needed to repair it. Time will help you right now. I am sorry that you have to bear this pain. I hope that you both attend counseling. Take it day by day. God Bless.

Ahhhhh...you did read it...cool smile !

Of course I did I read everything what can bring even a little relief.

I never wanted to know the dirty details of what they did together.

I have a strange (maybe actually sick) need to know every detail. It is incredibly painful for me, but I feel like I have to go through this. I guess lack of this knowledge and guesswork do me more harm than the truth. As I mentioned earlier, I translate this book into our native language. I use this opportunity to ask more questions. So during the translation, I add a parenthesis with the question "was it similar in your case?" I realized that I put the most parentheses in the sexuality section. I really don't know why I'm so fixated on this point.

Yesterday I asked him a few questions that came to my mind thanks to your answers to my post. Conversation went down to buying those unfortunate condoms again. It pisses me off so much that he cannot say directly that "yes, I bought them because I was counting on sex". This part of the conversation went something like this:
Me: Can you tell me again what you thought when you were buying condoms? H: I already told you: just in case. I wanted to be safe.
Me: And when did you buy them? After or before your first sex.
H: Before. After our first kiss.
Me: So you planned that something more would come to pass?
H: I didn't plan anything, just thought I didn't know what she expected from me, so it would be good to be on the safe side.
Me: Before, you told me that after your first kiss you were so scared and disgusted that you wanted to change your job...
H: Yes, but there was a pandemic and I couldn't change job.
Me: So since you couldn't change job, you decided you had to buy condoms because you didn't know what she might want from you, and if it was sex you couldn't refuse her, right?
H: silence

I realized that it might be so difficult for him to utter these words, because he would have to admit to himself and to me that the whole story didn't look like he so far presented - she did not initiate sex but he did... I just don't know if I should push him further to admit it?

I hope that you both attend counseling.

We used to, but not anymore. We had 3 MCs and I had 2 ICs. Long to talk about our experiences. Who would have thought it is so difficult to find a good one.

I have a strange (maybe actually sick) need to know every detail. It is incredibly painful for me, but I feel like I have to go through this. I guess lack of this knowledge and guesswork do me more harm than the truth.

That's NORMAL. Our brains are basically just organic computers. So, once we find out that our data regarding our WS is corrupt, we experience trauma and as a way of dealing with that trauma we are driven to recreate the story. And because we can't trust the WS because they lied and we can't trust ourselves due to having missed the lies, we feel an obsessive need to verify, and reverify, and reverify, and reverify.. you see how it goes. At some point, we need to decide that we know enough or we'll drive ourselves mad. This is trauma brain. It's a normal reaction, but that doesn't mean we should tolerate it in perpetuity. At the point where you feel like your WS has become honest, your best bet is to make yourself stop.

I don't think you're at that point though.

I realized that it might be so difficult for him to utter these words, because he would have to admit to himself and to me that the whole story didn't look like he so far presented - she did not initiate sex but he did... I just don't know if I should push him further to admit it?

Underneath it all, what we want is HONESTY. We need to know that our WS has learned to value honesty for its own sake, that they understand the importance of never telling us another lie. We need to know they've corrected the flaws in their character. And until we get to that point, it's useless to try and rein in our trauma response because it's NOT going to be calmed with anything less than 100% honesty going forward. This is what recreates emotional intimacy and then can result in good sexual intimacy.

Anyway, I really do feel like if you could just break through to this guy on the imperative nature of HONESTY when it comes to R, it would resolve most of the issues. Yeah, it's hard to hear that your spouse initiated sex with someone else. But what's harder is having them lie about it... because you have no way forward in the presence of lies. None that will result in the restoration of emotional intimacy anyway, and without that, all you're doing is killing time.

{typo}

[This message edited by SI Staff at 6:32 PM, Thursday, December 9th]

Anyway, I really do feel like if you could just break through to this guy on the imperative nature of HONESTY when it comes to R, it would resolve most of the issues.

I try to reach him. I emphasize the sentences about importance of truthfulness and full openness in the books I translate. I send him excerpts from the articles etc. He seems to understand this and often says that he wants to be a different person now and not to lie to anyone in any matter. He answered many painful questions, but not all of them at once - it took many months for some of them. I'm a bit torn and I wonder is it my distrust or in fact not all been said yet? Today I asked if he thought about our yesterday's conversation. He insists on his version. And when I asked directly about initiation, he replied that they were walking, she said that she wanted him, and he said "ok, take me then". I think there is nothing left for me to do but abandon this part of the topic and accept what he says...

To get details, let him know that him and AP still have secrets together, an intimacy with those secret details. Let him know that knowing their secrets can help you heal.

[This message edited by CometGirl at 6:44 AM, December 10th (Friday)]

I'm going to second Marriageredux's post. He does remember every bit of it. Back when I was going through this, I decided to test myself and think of sexual encounters I had way further back than my XWH's cheating. I can sit and recall picking up a guy at a bar, why I approached him, what I said, how he reacted, what we did, how I felt about it, etc. I might not recognize him if I ran into him today, but I remember the encounter and that wasn't even a situation where I was cheating or had any ethical issues with what I was doing. That was just a casual unimportant moment in my life that had no reverberations throughout the rest of it and therefore very little reason to remember it. And it was 20+ years ago. I remember quite a lot of what I've done sexually in my life. Even more relevant, I'd cheated back on DDay and I could miraculously recall answers to every question he had. He remembers every bit of it and if he felt like being honest, he could break the whole thing down to you with clear language in less than 10 minutes. So yes, it's quite frustrating to have to pull answers out when he could resolve this for you in no time flat if he could man up enough to do it.

You're tearing yourself apart, wondering if you're good enough for a man who cheated on you.

That's golden.

I also went through the bullshit of a madonna/whore thing with my XWH. I have always been sexually adventurous and I was surprised to find that my XWH no longer had much interest in anything more than the usual once we were married. He could handle the fun girlfriend, but once the word "wife" got involved, I was not to be for fun anymore. So I was the one bored with our sex life and not cheating, but our sex life being boring was not my doing. He turned himself into reheated leftovers. I expect your WH did the same. He could have had all the adventures he wanted with you, but he had you in the wife box. So please take any complaints you heard about your sex life with a grain of salt. The problems that a WS tends to complain about are problems that they created.

o get details, let him know that him and AP still have secrets together, an intimacy with those secret details. Let him know that knowing their secrets can help you heal.

That's brilliant! I will definitely use it Thanks.

I can sit and recall picking up a guy at a bar, why I approached him, what I said, how he reacted, what we did, how I felt about it, etc.

You are so right! Why didn't I think about it? I also remember every single detail of my before-marriage experiences. However, I suppose when I bring this up, he will counter this with the statement that I wasn't cheating, so I wasn't as stressed out as he was...
In "Not just Friends" we just got to the point where the author said that you really shouldn't go into details at the beginning of the road to R. Later, however, if the need for this knowledge does not pass, then of course yes and any answers must be sincere. He said he would not avoid these conversations. Now I am waiting for the right moment to raise this point.

You're tearing yourself apart, wondering if you're good enough for a man who cheated on you.

That's golden.

Yes, it is.
I was huge during the pregnancy. My son was 5kg when he was born. I've got stretch marks everywhere. She, however, is 8 years younger than me and 12 years younger than my WM. She never gave birth. In the course of our marriage, he had never given me the feeling that my scars mattered. I have always felt the most beautiful woman in the world thanks to him. He often said: "you are like wine - the older the better" (he also added "the more beautiful", although I do not know how it relates to wine ).
Well, the bubble is gone now! For the first year after the DD, I became absolutely obsessed with my appearance. To improve the quality of my skin, I scrubbed it with a hard brush every day, rubbed different oils into it, exercised (although I honestly hate exercising). Now I'm over it, but it was extremely hard for me. I was doing all those things crying my eyes out but vision of stopping brought me fear. This obsession is gone now (but I've got many different ones )