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I'm a bloodied mess and I just keep trying. This is who I am. I do not give up when I want something, and no obstacle has ever kept me from achieving a goal I set for myself, until now.

I truly hope that this is something you address with an IC. It is so incredibly damaging. If you did this physically, you would be hospitalized and would get help for it. Just because you're doing the emotional equivalent doesn't make it any less damaging or alarming. I'm sure you knew who you were before your WH came along but anyone who goes through this, anyone who experiences wave after wave of emotional abuse, loses who they are and feels confused like this. This is how it will continue if you keep choosing to harm yourself by using him as a proxy.

You need to examine why it's okay to sacrifice yourself for him in vain like this. You need to examine why you don't matter enough to put first. Who taught you that others are more important? Who taught you that love comes above your health and wellbeing to allow you to justify this to yourself? On some level, do you believe that hurting or death would be better than being single? Why are you so terrified of being apart from him? You don't need to answer these here but answer them for yourself because acknowledging it will set you on a path to loving yourself enough to stop allowing this to continue.

Some things from your last post stuck out to me.

How to R with a non-compliant spouse

You can't. It's just that simple.

I want to clear the air with him, reach a bedrock of understanding and I keep trying knowing every time I do that it will likely end badly.

Again, I know you know this, but I think it helps having an internet stranger validate it; you can't do these things without his participation. There is no understanding to be had if he is unwilling to even try for it.

But I know that problems do not fix themselves, that issues have to be identified and corrective actions are required to prevent recurrence.

The first and hardest step is admitting to the problem. That's why it is the first step of any 12-step program. And you are very right in this. But your wh can't even do step ONE, much less all the other steps that take him from a cheater to a safe partner. And without step one, you have nothing to build on and no way to try anything corrective.

For me, that self reflection is a keystone in the rebuilding of self, and partnership. That plus unbridled honesty and hard work.

Yes again, you are right. And YOU are looking at all this through the eyes of a person who is capable of that kind of self-reflection. I remember in my situation saying something similar to my xwh. Because to ME, these things are second nature and not bad things. But for someone like my xwh (and like your wh IMHO), they just are NOT capable of any kind of meaningful self-reflection. And honesty?? Yeah, not so much capable of that either.

Based on my reaction to his offer to leave me, which was mostly shock and panic after being told he would never quit trying, I know I am not ready to quit, not yet. But the foundation is being laid down that road, isn't it?

I get this. I wasn't ready to quit either. And I panicked when he would talk about it. Until I didn't. Until I hit the point where staying in the toxic swamp my marriage had become was intolerable for one more second. That happened when I was questioning him yet again about things and he lost his shit and then texted me (yes, texted me, after 9 years together) 'let's just get the divorce over with'. That was the blow that killed pete for me. Right up to that I was all in, fighting for R, trying to save my marriage, but that text on top of allllllll the other crap he put me through in 9 months of R'ing (continued minimization, continued lying, taking the affair physical in my bed - though I didn't know that at the time) showed me just what a coward he was and just how unworthy he was. Best text I ever got after all was said and done, because it got me OUT of infidelity.

I am always pulling for R if there is enough love on both sides to fight for.

As I said before though honey - you can't R alone. And R is not just about love - it is about hard work, brutal and radical honesty, fearless self-exploration, and tenacious grit. And a ws who wants it will be willing to do all that. Yours is patently NOT willing to do any of that. And yours is not in any way acting loving of you.

I am equally unsettled by the BS who reach the point of giving up and choosing the unknown rather than keep fighting a losing battle.

*raising hand* This is me. And I was unsettled too when I was in the early days. But I am living sassy proof that life goes on after a divorce. That life can be SO. MUCH. BETTER. without a cheater in it. That the 'unknown' that seemed SO scary is actually not a bad spot to be. I fought that losing battle for 9 months after dday1, and I can't tell you what a relief it was to stop fighting and to start living.

So here I am, getting my therapy during a pandemic from a wonderful supportive group of people who have seen it all and lived to tell the tale, and even more surprising, show up here to offer help and support to the next batch of broken people.

Just paying it forward honey. I was broken too, and lost, and hopeless, and afraid. And SO many people here helped me. And one day, you won't be in the spot you are now and you'll help others too.

If I force him to give me what I need, if he is even capable, he will resent me for it, and I already resent having to ask in the first place.

Firstly, you can't force him to do anything. I thought I could with mine too, but I couldn't. Second, no he isn't capable of doing the hard work that would give you what you need here. Maybe he reaches capable at some point (hope springs eternal) but he sure as heck ain't there now and the signs really point to him not ever getting there to me. As for his resentment? SMH. Mine was resentful too. Resentful of a wife who made more money. Resentful of being asked to perform basic adulting. Resentful of financial worries. And all those resentments are what 'made' him fall in love with an 18 yo (says quite something about his emotional development, no?). Resentments are poison and unaddressed resentments are fatal to the marriage. Your resentments are well justified my dear - because you shouldn't have to ASK your husband not to sleep with another woman for a decade and then behave like a decent human. But until and unless he gets his head out of his tookas, I just don't see your resentments going away.

The real question is how much more can I take? What is my break point?

That IS the real question. And not one that anyone here can answer for you because it is entirely subjective and it is different for everyone. But I think you need to really do some soul searching on this for yourself. I can tell you that you deserve better than this.

None of this crap is easy, so please give yourself some grace. Sending hugs and strength your way.

was there a time when the switch went off in your head and you realized the hurt and damage you did to us and to me?

Gently, that's the wrong question. What you need to know, I think, is what led WSes in successful R to decide they have to change. And perhaps you need to know that your H will never get to that point.

You keep trying to change your H. You can't. You deserve a great husband, but your H can choose not to be that person.

Your goal may be R, but you do not and cannot control your H. Reconciling your M is not within your control.

You can, however, R with yourself ... work through the loss of illusions, the loss of your M, the anger, grief, fear, and shame that comes with being betrayed ... and you can thrive. But you can do that only if you stop butting your head against a metaphorical stone wall.

I recommend reading and putting into practice https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/documents/library/articles/discovery/the-simplified-180/.

Again, thank you all for the responses, they really help in so many ways.

I realize that the VLT nature of his A, the false recovery and the slow pace of my discoveries when I should have seen the obvious have contributed to my current state of crazy. I know that if he had admitted anything without lying first then proven otherwise through my slow digital forensics, or if he had stopped seeing her when caught, or if they had both not lied to me to minimize the affair as months long instead of years, and especially if he had ended the affair instead of me confronting her and threatening her away, I would probably be much farther along to healed by now and much less confused and crazy. The worst is the stages of forgiveness I went through at each of my DDays only to be burned by more lies. Honesty is all I asked for from the first discovery, and fidelity is all I ever asked for in our marriage, so those hurts run very deep. Maybe this is why I'm failing at healing myself first, because I'm still churning and processing so much damage.

Most of the fights happen when I force a conversation to try to figure out which of the things he has said are actually true. I'm a researcher by nature and I just can't let loose ends go. It looks like it's time for me to learn a few new things. Getting right mentally is top of he list, letting go of the loose ends is up there too. I have managed to let go of the guilt that I was somehow inadequate or lacking as a wife, partner and friend. I still have flares of humiliation, and I think any way you look at this, it is humiliating and so very humbling. It is time for me to work the me program harder now. I have been looking for IC, it's time to pick one, not to work on my marriage or infidelity, but on my mental churning and the depression that comes with LT betrayal.

I don't think I'm afraid to end my marriage, just incredibly sad to consider it. I see now through this thread that I am also incredibly stubborn and need to stop planning to die on this hill, if I want some peace and the life I deserve. I know I deserve better, I know he is capable of better, I'm just not able to comprehend why he is fighting me so hard on every level. He has had two moments of humility and remorse that I was witness to, one a heartfelt apology for his "unbelievable betrayal of my love and trust" but when I uncovered more lies, I guess it wasn't that unbelievable after all.

He said in a fit of frustration earlier this year "I don't know how to help you, if there was a book or movie with the answers I'd read/watch them" I burst out laughing. There was a book, HTHYSHFYA, he refused. I have seven more, I have hundreds of articles, links from the healing library, podcasts, videos, I have tried to share them all with him. I asked what's wrong with googling how to help my spouse get over my affair? He has never done it, and I can only assume that would force him to look at his misdeeds and that triggers shame and he is not equipped to handle shame, never has been and never will. All of it added up is the amount of himself he is willing to give to make amends and keep this relationship going on solid ground, and it is a paltry amount. I know it. That is a hurtful thing to know, your true worth to someone. My best friend who is very smart and wise and knows us both better than anyone told me that he is emotionally incapable of giving me the things I need to heal, he doesn't have those tools in his box, so what is my plan to wake up happy knowing I need what he cannot give. I'm still working on that answer, but it is becoming more clear.

He understands that not dealing with this with me, not talking, not working on self improvement is a dead end. I've told him the possible outcomes based on this site and all my reading and he knows it is bleak. He thinks we can will ourselves to a better outcome. He claims he is trying, and I have seen a few things improve, but it has been a long four years of trying to get on solid ground for me, and as I said, my resentment and exhaustion are growing.

I've been working on the grace thing, trying to be kinder to myself for all of it, for not seeing the truth, for not protecting myself better, for not letting go or healing faster, for still, four years downstream being unable to stop thinking about or checking in on the MOW, for triggering on a million little things, pictures, words, dates, restaurants, foods, you name it. I hate my pace of progress, but guess you might tell me the reason I'm disappointed in my progress is that I'm in a situation where progress is not possible, not alone, not by myself. I know so much of this is not my fault, but I am my harshest critic so I struggle with that.

Thanks for the link, sissoon, I read it a few years ago but when I was determined to fix things, the 180 seemed not for me. I re-read it and I see it differently now. I have come to realize the worst thing I have done since DDay 1 is to not put distance between us, to get away from the pain and catch my breath and my bearings. It's strange the things you do in shock, but I pulled him closer and corralled the wagons and became a one woman save my marriage band. There is nothing dumber than continuing to do the same things over and over hoping for a better outcome. I thought I was smarter than this, but love made me stupid I guess.

You can, however, R with yourself ... work through the loss of illusions, the loss of your M, the anger, grief, fear, and shame that comes with being betrayed ... and you can thrive.

Yes, this. I thought I had accomplished these things a few times; my journal is filled with positive entries only to be set back by another discovery and the cycle churning again. It is time to take a firm stand that my lack of progress is not my problem, not my shortcoming, not my complicated brain, or my inability to choose happiness, it is not my fault and never was. All of the blame is on him because he has made this worse on us both at every turn with poorly thought out choices and a lack of effort.

Thank you all again for so much to think about and I'm sure it will take me a while to process and pick a path forward. Wishing us all the best.

I've been working on the grace thing, trying to be kinder to myself for all of it, for not seeing the truth, for not protecting myself better, for not letting go or healing faster, for still, four years downstream being unable to stop thinking about or checking in on the MOW, for triggering on a million little things, pictures, words, dates, restaurants, foods, you name it. I hate my pace of progress, but guess you might tell me the reason I'm disappointed in my progress is that I'm in a situation where progress is not possible, not alone, not by myself. I know so much of this is not my fault, but I am my harshest critic so I struggle with that.

When he is STILL lying, STILL minimizing, STILL invalidating your thoughts and feelings... how on earth is it that you think you'd be able to stop thinking about it and checking your facts? Of course you wouldn't be able to - you're still in the DDay mindset of not knowing which way is up and not even knowing your own reality! You're damn tootin that progress isn't possible in this state - NO ONE could progress in this situation. Think about the affair like a huge splinter in your foot - that splinter is STILL in there and you're trying to walk and run and do all the things and "heal", but HOW can you possibly heal when the source of the infection is still there? You can't. And the one person who should be helping you to remove that splinter is just telling you to deal with it and that you should be able to heal up just fine and that it doesn't hurt that bad anyways - but it's YOUR foot and YOU get to decide how bad it's hurting.

You aren't superhuman honey so please stop expecting superhuman things from yourself. Easier said than done, I know.

It's strange the things you do in shock, but I pulled him closer and corralled the wagons and became a one woman save my marriage band. There is nothing dumber than continuing to do the same things over and over hoping for a better outcome. I thought I was smarter than this, but love made me stupid I guess.

You acted a way in shock. I did too. So did SOOOOOO many other bs's here. I acted in ways after dday that literally scared me about myself cus it was like I was a stranger to my own self. It's normal. And it passes. Once you get to a place where you have a little patch of solid ground under you, it gets easier to get your bearings and make decisions about your next steps.

You are NOT stupid at all. You are human. And there is nothing wrong with hoping for the ideal outcome, or loving someone, or trying to save your M. But please don't pin YOUR happiness and future on HIS actions. You can't control what he does or doesn't do (as much as I wish we all could), but you DO have control over what you will tolerate going forward.

I know for me the trick after the dday shockiness went away was first dialing in on MY needs and wants and then really getting honest with myself about whether or not he was capable of giving me those things. That was not easy to do and it took me some time. But once I really did get honest about that, it made MY path forward pretty clear.

I think you are just beating your head against a wall. Do you really think a guy like this has the capacity for empathy?

I would imagine, with someone like this as a spouse, even before the cheating, you were lonely as hell.

This whole deal reminds me of something I read by an entrenched alcoholic woman who was trying to determine if she drank because she was an ahole or if she was an ahole due to th he drinking.

Clearly, your husband had very little, if any, compassion or empathy for his entire life. This enabled him to cheat and lie for an incredibly long time. I bet he functioned just fine, sleeping alright, working etc.

Do you really feel a person l I'm e this is capable of any decent level of emotional intimacy? Think having had an affair he is going to change?

My XW was like this. No capacity for closeness, no empathy. No integrity, goes without saying. Once I got out( thank you, infidelity), I started reading about narcissists. It was such a relief to be out from under that abuse.

I was 52 when I got out. I am 67 now. The last 15 years have been the best of my life.

Reconciliation takes two, and BOTH have to be willing to do their own work in order for it to be successful. Your WH is clearly unwilling to do that. This doeesn't mean that you have to divorce if you don't want to, but it does mean that you'll unlikely to ever feel like you've achieved R. I think your best bet is to re-prioritize in such a way as to put your own happiness first, and then just enjoy whatever parts of this burnt-out marriage are still enjoyable to you. IOW, make sure that whatever emotional reliance you had on the marriage or on him is transferred to safer hands.. yours. I'll be honest with you.. even in a relatively good R, my primary relationship these days is with ME. I don't have to trust my fWH. I trust ME. And if he lets me down again, I've still got ME and I am enough.

Start suiting yourself. Draw your boundaries and then maintain them. Make Number One your biggest priority. I do think that at a certain point, you're going to be over this guy. Maybe before that happens, he'll start reciprocating your efforts, but maybe, he won't and you'll get to the point where it will no longer matter to you. Right now, he's holding up your life. What I'm suggesting, is just move on with your life and devil take the hindmost. Stop doing more than what you strictly feel like doing in this relationship. Stop allowing your heart to be involved with people who are bad for you. Invest in someone who will always have your back if you'll let her... and that's YOU.

Does your WH have close friends and is he close with his family? I’m guessing that he has difficulty forming healthy and close relationships with people.

Thanks again everyone.

Yep, I was lonely. He was busy working, a lot. Like travelling at the peak 100 days a year a lot. Made it so easy to take the MOW along when BOS was travelling. But also lonely from the emotional distance, especially when I lost my dad and was depressed. He had no idea how to be supportive in grief. He started cheating shortly after that, while I was still finding my new normal.

Yep, he lacks empathy. Slept fine, claims he was happy with his life always, no difference during the A years. He was raised by judgmental, cold people, so he comes by it honestly. I wouldn't say he has NPD, but I would say he was raised to be this compartmentalized and dispassionate by one. He had to develop more than thick skin to survive childhood, and it made him the most self reliant, unflappable and I thought dependable person I have ever met. Another reason a torrid affair blew my mind, completely out of character from the person he showed the world. Least likely guy by anyone's measure. The few who know were as gobsmacked and shocked as I was.

Does he have the capacity to change? As a person, maybe not. But I think he realizes what he did was wrong and unfair and not the bargain we made, and I think he knows any further lies or cheating and I walk. I think he realizes he is gambling with our future, which he claims very much to want, with poor effort and anger management issues. He will do jack all to deal with his infidelity or address why his first instinct is always self preservation and often lies. He has thrown himself into doing things for me, which is nice, I love the handmade gifts and the house help and he will support me in anything I choose, take me anywhere I want, live anywhere I say. He is able to do anything that involves things. He is kind 90% of the time as long as I don't push for recovery work or want to talk through things A related, which is a lot. We have spent hundreds of hours driving together since covid and there's something about trapped in a car that makes me want to discuss things.

Does he have close friends or family? No, no one to confide in, only casual golf/neighbor buddies. He's not a friend guy, which is why a LT relationship with his "girlfriend" shook me so hard, I thought he didn't need anyone but me and the kids. We have been an island unto ourselves since day one. Or so I thought. Oddly, once I scared her off, he said the switch flipped and he could care less about her, she is nobody to him now and he'd prefer to never think of her again if I would just let him. Not until I can forget her, buddy. But I ask him all the time if he misses her, the friendship she claims they had, but he said not at all.

Chamomile, thanks. I'm going to keep reading those words. Got a little teary there. Will do.

[This message edited by whatisloveanyway at 9:57 PM, Thursday, December 9th]

He is kind 90% of the time as long as I don't push for recovery work or want to talk through things A related, which is a lot.

If you have a starting point, maybe this is it.

Give him the compliment that you do appreciate his kindness, 90 percent of time, but that you're going to require the other 10 percent.

In your first post about word choices, I agree with you, word choices absolutely matter.

ChamomileTea has crushed it with her observations here, I'm just saying that as someone who eventually worked things out with my wife, you're going to need a lot more work from your WH.

Rebuilding a relationship needs both people giving more than they think they can, just to have a chance.

Old Wounds, Thank you for your feedback and this suggestion. I plan to use it. And I think you are correct about Chamomile Tea's post.

Hi @whatisloveanyway how are you doing? I read through your posts and all that you wrote and my heart goes out to you. I've also gone through the pain of betrayal so I understand many of the emotions you're dealing with but truly grateful that my H and I were able to see the light at the end of the tunnel, as our marriage was healed and reconciled.

From my own experience I know people are capable of much deception and capable of causing great pain but I've also realized that people are also capable of huge change in their character and no one is beyond redemption. However for some people it can take take a while for that to happen and might even require a 'Damascus' experience to bring about that change.
I do hope at some point your husband comes to that place where he decides and chooses to begin working on being the best version of himself because this is always the starting point in bringing the change that is necessary for a successful R.

My prayer for you is that the near future bring complete healing for your emotion, peace of mind, wisdom to guide you and most importantly many joyful moments that you deserve despite all that has happened.
Remember always that you are WORTHY of love that can be trusted and you are ENOUGH just as you are.

Stay strong friend!

Unkind 10% of the time? That is a huge block of time.

See how tolerance for abuse, ambient abuse, increases, like the frog in tepid water gradually brought to a boil deal.

I would not compliment anyone who was unkind to me that frequently.

My XW only spent about 5% of her available time cheating. Maybe I should thank her for being so magnanimous.

This is your one and only life( as far as we know).

I have no real new opinion or advice to add, you have plenty here. I just want to say that the realization and process of internalizing that a cheater is not capable of self-reflection is nearly as gut-wrenching as discovering the cheating. It is a mental process.

I think you know you are fighting for something that never existed and never will. It doesn't mean you can't stay with him with a mind-set that recognizes that, but it is an ongoing battle for your mind and heart to navigate with him in your day to day life, as opposed to separating him from your life.

am equally unsettled by the BS who reach the point of giving up

No it's not 'giving up'. It is a decision based on accepting reality. A relationship isn't a quest or goal that was there but was given up on.

As far as the initial 'anybody'. Yeah, that is the general talk that shows they are nowhere near invested in you as an individual. Even if he is referring to others in a sincere way, the question was asked about you. It makes me angry just reading his answer.

You sound perfectly fine taking care of this! The same determination you use to R, if put towards taking care of yourself and other relationships with family etc., you will be entering a new wonderful part of life.

By the way, you mention your children don't know. Just a thought, keeping secrets from those who are close is soul-sucking. I HATED that phase and don't see how that is sustainable without creating deep anxiety. Like holding a ticking secret time-bomb inside.

Take care. Sorry he hasn't been what you hoped.

My XWW was much like your husband. My marriage was extremely lonely. She had zero empathy for others( understandable, I guess since, for example, her mother was adamant that Nicole Brown Simpson, got what she deserved as she must have used such poor judgement marrying O.J. (( I am serious)) )

I am 15 years out now. I was 52 when I got out.

I am a firm believer that life is a struggle a lot of the time. We all face hardship and adversity a fair % of our lives, interspersed with some happiness and, most importantly, meaning.

Since getting out, away from an abuser intent on isolating and criticizing me( and many of these folks have boundless energy for this dynamic), I have reconnected with friends and family who i' d been isolated from. My life is more tranquil, far less lonely.

Cheating got me out. It was the bright line for me my ticket out where those who would not have accepted emotional abuse as a valid reason for divorcing, now supported me( including all my in- laws).

If your kids are grown, it is easier. Three of my 5 were still at home. By getting out, I provided them a safe haven to come to and be away from her, which they used and appreciated.

Your H sounds like he is either NPD or a high functioning autistic person. The things he says are outrageous. His emotional IQ must be extremely low. Very lonely existence for you.