SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Ultimatums are useless unless you are willing to see them through.

I think the drinking is a key element.
You say you stopped drinking yourself "with her" 23 months ago...
Yet she’s still drinking, and your sobriety isn’t really making any change there. Not suggesting you hit the bottle but rather accept that you can’t sober her up through you.
I have a lot of experience with alcoholics. Not so much personally, but through my work, through close family members and through an organization I (used to) volunteer with. There are a couple of things I believe about alcoholism:
There is no such thing as a "functioning" alcoholic. Alcohol impacts at varying stages, but even if she’s successful in her career despite a liquid-lunch then if she’s picking up the kids drunk, reorganizing deadlines because of a bender, not able to catch a flight because she’s too tanked-up... then she’s about as "functioning" as a driver driving completely correctly and straight but headed at a light-post about 100 yards ahead. It’s only a question of time.
It's like the statement that alcoholism always leads to death... Probably easy to find alcoholics that made it to ninety plus, but it’s also probably easier to find those that crashed their vehicles, slipped on ice, stumbled into traffic, fell out of a bathtub, wrecked their health... Again – the steel-bar 100 yards ahead!

For an alcoholic NOTHING takes precedence over the booze. They might prioritize – and it might sound like you or the family is somewhere in that list – but at the end there will be the next fix. Like – I will buy the groceries on my way home, get the kids, make the dinner.... and THEN I will have some booze.
This prioritizing of alcohol... that’s why I – as a cop – picked up more than one parent driving from the daycare with their kids in the vehicle, way over the limit and reeking of booze.

I even think a WS and alcoholics will hang on to the marital problems as an excuse or reason to NOT deal with the alcoholism. She’s fine with you focusing on marital issues if it takes your focus off the booze.

Another factor IMHO: I don’t think someone living with an altered mindset can fully commit to a definite long-term path like reconciliation and marriage. You want intimacy and sex? Make her the offer that if she is more attentive you won’t mention her drinking and ensure she get’s 2 bottles of her poison-of-choice per week. But would that make a good marriage?

I guess what I’m getting to is that MAYBE you should put emphasis on getting her to accept she’s an alcoholic and needs to stop drinking completely. Like AA, sponsor, 12 step... and accountability.
This could create the conditions where she can finally decide if she wants this marriage or not.

Finally: If you don’t accept that this might end in a divorce of YOUR decision... then how can this end?
Well... IMHO three possibilities:
You continue in a sexless marriage. No intimacy, no show of affection. Let’s even assume no infidelity. You two simply abstain and remain celibate. Plenty of people do this, and last time I checked there is no medical risk in not having sex with another person.

If that doesn’t sound good... Well... Same as above, only she has her lovers and you pretend not to notice. You can find a "friend" – and you both ignore what’s going on. It’s not something I recommend, but it’s probably more common than we imagine. I remember the funeral of a former French president where his wife followed his casket, and 10 feet his mistress and love-child.

Then there is the most likely outcome: At some point one of you has enough... Then that person files no matter what.

Frankly – none of the three is something that would appeal to me. I think you are painting too black a picture on the effects of divorce. You are claiming that since she’s the prime breadwinner that will be bad for you. This is less common than all the statements we hear here that since the BS is the prime breadwinner THEY will lose a lot in marriage... I think you will be fine if this ends in D.

Bigger- thank you for your insight. I found your words very helpful and clarifying.

I understand completely that my sobriety is not for my wife’s hopeful sobriety. I stopped drinking (I was a light drinker) for medication related reasons and doubt I’d ever go back to drinking at all. There are parts I miss, but overall I feel so much better. I understand that she has to choose sobriety or to even get serious about addressing her drinking.

As you probably understand, my experience with Al-anon has been helpful in focusing on what I can change: me. I have found that this self-focus has also led to me not letting her know how her drinking negatively impacts me and our relationship. That has to change.

I like our life and friends, this is the big impact of moving toward divorce. The inevitable taking sides by friends and the feeling of starting over. I mostly am frustrated by how little I ask for and her resistance to even try.

Alcohol is the elephant in our lives and it needs to be addressed. I know I’ll be ok in the long run if we divorce. It just seems so stupid to have to go through it.

I have similar experience with alcoholics as Bigger and completely agree with him on that score. But frankly, concentrating on her drinking is like worrying about the deck chairs on the Titanic. You haven’t had sex or even physical contact for 2+ years because she doesn’t want your attentions, and there’s no change on the horizon. How long are you going to live like this?

NotSoGreatExpectations - How long am I going to live like this? I don't know... Not much longer. I am getting fed up with being picked apart by her almost daily and always being the problem. I'm working on me, but she is evaluating me based on what she thinks I should work on. In my Al-Anon group we talk about staying in your own hula-hoop. I'm trying to stay in mine and she's also in my hula-hoop!

I spent a chunk of time thinking through the comments here and my reflections on this past week. It seems that she is unwilling to do anything that doesn't feel organic and natural to her and is not making or marriage a priority. I'm relegated to a few minutes here and there each week if I'm lucky. Meanwhile she has multiple overnight, out of town fun trips each month for her self-care. When I bring it up, I'm not understanding her needs. I am beginning to see that my needs have no room in this relationship.

The other ah-ha moment for me was around physical affection. I'd be content with a hug and being near each other as a solid start. I am getting to the place of thinking that she has forfeited any obligation on my end to remaining celibate because she's "just not into it." If roles were reversed, she'd give me a week or two to get my head around sex or there would be hell to pay.

I need her to show that this relationship is important and that she wants it. If she's still trying to decide, then I am ready to separate. I deserve better and our kids are certainly getting a terrible model of how a marriage should look function.

There's an old saying: "I cannot change the wind, but I can adjust my sails."

I think I scare myself as I am more and more often thinking about pursuing someone else for some fun and to explore a real relationship again. I don't want to cheat on my wife, but I am aware that I don't have to remain in this current relationship. At this point I'm more affectionate with even my therapist than my wife (nothing inappropriate, she just gives me a big hug at the end of our sessions).

I guess I just don't like the situation I currently find myself and I do deserve better.

I make about 3 times more than my WW, and I'm now on month 7 of no sex and virtually no touching.

Why is this happening? I don't really know. I've tried to initiate a few times, and it's gone nowhere. She's never initiated.

After D-Day we had tons of sex initially, and then normal amounts for the next 5 months.

Personally, I feel like no sex is not something I'd ever consider giving an ultimatum for. To me, it's a byproduct of our failed marriage, not the reason for it. I'm really focused on the foundational areas of the marriage (and no I don't think sex is foundational) that need fixed first. For my marriage that's trust, intimacy, and the ability to be vulnerable with one another. We're failing (I would say mostly she's failing) on all those fronts. So, it's really no wonder that we're not having sex.

I know for some people, trust, intimacy, and vulnerability are real mood killers, but that's not me, and it's not how I want my marriage to work.

Anyway, maybe this was helpful? Just trying to share some additional experience and perspective.

Thanks 4characters.

I agree that sex is not foundational. I am in the situation where my WW is still hiding. She resists all forms of intimacy and often has a new complaint about me that needs to be changed so she will feel safe. Our MC asked me to do a deliberate act of love for her every day and I have, including planning a date. My WW did clutch my elbow briefly after dinner and that was our only contact in the past month. This has been going on for 2 years WHILE IN MC.

I don't get it. She asks me to accept her the way she is in this new her, but I have the laundry list of things to change. Meanwhile she plays hard away from the home and leaves me with the kids 95% of the time.

When I've asked for a hug, she says that I shouldn't need anything from her, that's me not being a whole person. She has exploded at the kids when our youngest asks her to watch her do a jump or feat. "I'm the only person in this family that doesn't need the approval of others!"

I miss having a partner to laugh with and play with. I miss our robust sex life that dwindled after our second kid to only when she wanted it, but that was still 2-3 times a month. Now? She's just self-absorbed.

Fashionable clothes, concerts, travel with friends (we used to travel together), beauty regiments, facials, hair appointments that cost a fortune. I think she's trying to live like a single, childless woman and escape being in a marriage and having kids. Please keep in mind that I've been a stay at home dad and worked part time since we had kids.

How do you deal with the WS usually turning each disagreement into how I'm failing as a spouse? It is always something. Last night when she did it, I asked her if she thinks there is something she could do better, because it seems that my approach is always the problem according to her.

Why are you still married?

@riverswithfish

In my situation, after a year of MC and IC (like over 50 sessions!) it’s been established that as my 45 year old ww watched her kids grow up and not need her in the same way, and as she went back into the workforce, she created a new family for herself, and we (the kids and I) were no longer valued the same way. This new family allowed her to reinvent herself, or maybe to be fair, allowed her to show sides of herself that made her feel better.

Unfortunately, it also led to an affair. I’m still triggered every morning as I watch her get ready for work. The longer she takes, the more care she puts into it, the worse the reminder is of how we got to where we are today.

I would say that your wife’s travel, the detachment from her husband and kids, the extra focus on her appearance, that all seems like a red flag to me.

How do you deal with the WS usually turning each disagreement into how I'm failing as a spouse? It is always something. Last night when she did it, I asked her if she thinks there is something she could do better, because it seems that my approach is always the problem according to her.

This also happened to me prior to d-day. And I think it’s another red flag.

It still happens to me now whenever my ww gets really defensive during our argument’s, but not like before when the affair was going on. Then it was extremely confrontational and unlike her normal self. It was almost like she couldn’t breathe the same air as me. So if it feels like that, I would say watch out, whatever was going on might still be going on.

As far as how I handle it now? I think about how I’m on a path to divorce and as she continues to do things like this, it tells me I’m on the right path.

I mean this as respectfully as I can.

You’ve heard the saying, Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Unfortunately that’s where you’re at.

Your wife has repeatedly shown you who she is. She disrespects you. Cheats on you. Turns this entire situation on you and asserts that you’re the problem.

She is never going to change because she has no reason to. At some level, you know this. She will continue having her fun while you sit home hoping she’ll throw you some sort of emotional scraps.

The time has come for you to start caring about yourself. To be blunt, your marriage is all but over except for the paperwork. Ask yourself, imagine being on SI in 2027 in the exact same place you are now. Does that sound appealing?

Don’t let fear or hoping she’ll change keep you from moving forward. We only get one shot at this life and time is finite. Don’t waste another minute on this woman or marriage. Invest it in yourself.

[This message edited by ff4152 at 11:06 PM, Tuesday, October 14th]

Something tells me that your WW is still having an A. Maybe not with one AP but possibly alot of one night stands. All those solo trips are a huge red flag.
Might be time for you to get some legal advice.

How do you deal with the WS usually turning each disagreement into how I'm failing as a spouse? It is always something. Last night when she did it, I asked her if she thinks there is something she could do better, because it seems that my approach is always the problem according to her.

You are asking the wrong question.

The more pertinent questions is why, in the face of the treatment you have received from her in the 2 years since DDay, do you continue to stay?

I agree that sex is not foundational.

I still remember this study…

Many have spent long hours wondering if a marriage is going to last, considering things like love, children, taxes, and the opinion of friends and professionals.

But the best and easiest answer may be this formula:

frequency of lovemaking minus frequency of quarrels

A positive difference predicts marital happiness, a negative one unhappiness.

The formula was derived from a series of studies in the 1970s. One study of married students at University of Missouri-Kansas City found that 28 out of 30 self-described happy couples had sex more than they argued, while all 12 self-described unhappy couples argued more. These results were corroborated by a 1974 study by John Howard and Robyn Dawes, in which all 23 happy couples had a positive score and all 3 unhappy couples had a negative score.