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Unexpected discovery

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atreides posted 7/22/2018 16:14 PM

Okay... from what I understand and correct me if am wrong:" you decided to confront however what "closure," as you used that word has been obtained in your honest evaluation of post confronting?

I think you have more questions than originally and now have even more suspicion as I am paraphrasing a bit, you feel the whole FB revelation she presented felt contrived. What about her mood? Her excuses of menopause does not explain her behavior.. I would also compare this 3 year mark on the FB chat you found to her behavior and see which makes more sense.

This is what I meant by resolve, what do you plan to enforce/(her reciprocate) at this point, it seems like we are back to detective mode? Have you made it very clear in your own opinion and her reaction that this relationship with this OM is to be terminated going forward? He needs to be gone whether there is/was or ever will be an A, not an appropriate relationship in any context.

This is the quagmire that is in confronting to early and not holding to a strict plan as stated earlier, there are risks either way though and now she is on notice but if there truly is an A, it will go underground further, something i feared in my earlier posts.

Right now the status of an A is still unknown but red flags are abound and more so having read you latest posts.

As for the other OM, i will never understand this "guilt trip" people put over themselves, in this case a male "friend" of your wife's... it is simply unacceptable... your back and forth over "reading too much into it" and so on ... huh?
Why put up with it? For what reason would you? So she can have a "friend?" a "Friend who professed love to her" and then go to a bar or wherever... forgive my lol here.
Sorry in my opinion, there would have been a shutdown or start the long good by... That's just me though... I am trying to get more umph in you and take control of this situation because right now you are still floundering.

all the best

Buster123 posted 7/22/2018 20:48 PM

I would highly recommend a PI for her upcoming business trip, her edited FB posts are a big red flag, secret frienship too, OM's intentions are clear, to sc..ew your wife, she knows this, so she could have put a stop to his advances yet she HAS NOT !, the "usual time" still does not pass the smell test for me either.

Maybe I'm old school but I would not allow my wife to go to bars with anybody if I'm not present, and no I don't allow GNOs either, especially with COWs, as has been shown in many threads here that end up in ONS/PA. I believe you have to avoid situations that involve alcohol and close proximity as dancing, hugging and chatting with the opposite sex where good times and alcohol are happening, there's a million other places she can go to alone, but sorry not GNOs.

I also don't understand this "privacy of a spouse's phone/email", to me, THERE'S NO PRIVACY IN MARRIAGE PERIOD", once you marry someone it becomes "US" instead of "Me", that's why we can see each other naked,so no, no passwords or or other means of communication (other than work email)that I cannot have access to is allowed, same thing viceversa, so don't feel bad about "snooping" it's not that at all, it's your life, right now her "friendship" with a divorced horny guy that has professed her love to her is inapropriate, she's an intelligent grown woman and knows this, it needs to stop regardless of A or not because it can certainly lead to that.

To me this is clearly an EA at the very least (I hope not) but I can also be a PA since they'be had personal contact and opportunity, that's why I think a PI is worth the money in an effort to stop this (whatever it is) from getting worst.

MickeyBill2016 posted 7/22/2018 21:53 PM

I am also trying to find phone call data -- I can't find a bill anywhere in the house??

Probably paperless billing, all online.

manfromlamancha posted 7/22/2018 22:13 PM

I still stand by my original reply to this. There is more to this than meets the eye and your wife has not been honest with you. You, however, have impressed me with your refusal to just accept what she has told you and you are very right to continue investigating and staying vigilant. You need to take your investigation underground and continue with your plan for VARs etc. You have already tipped your wife off enough and now need to be extra careful. Also, do not underestimate your wife's ability to understand the technology, lie to you, gaslight you etc.

Stay vigilant and trust your gut. Too many red flags still.

Ripped62 posted 7/22/2018 22:18 PM

You can get phone data from your carrier if the account is also in your name.

Jduff posted 7/22/2018 23:26 PM

The problem I have is that the quy is not that great

It usually isn't the "looks" that does the WW in, but the ego kibbles they are getting from the OM. Hence, why she didn't directly respond to his "I love you" message in the past.

There is a going thread called "They always affair down" which basically describes how very often the AP is much lower in all facets than the BS. Bottom line, your WW isn't cheating because of what YOU lack. She is cheating because of what SHE lacks.

Your WW, like many in these type of situations, may think she has this EA under control (even though she doesn't even acknowledge she is cheating in any way) but she is and has been at the very least to your knowledge on a very slippery slope. Bottom line, this so called "friend" of hers should be respecting your marriage and your wife's involvement in it, not wooing and tempting her away from it. You should tell her that you do not believe he is a friend of you and your wife's marriage.

Now, regardless of whether your wife is cheating or not, the fact that she has this kind of relationship with old male college chums bothers you. Hell, it would bother me as well as many of us current and former betrayed men here. This is normal. Even if you determine that she is not cheating at the end of your investigation you are allowed to express this concern to your WW. It isn't about being "jealous" or "insecure". It is about making your marriage "affair proof". If your WW disagrees then ask her if she wouldn't mind if you go and contact all your ex girlfriends and past female acquaintances and have deep meaningful texting with them in the middle of the night, then erase those messages by morning.

SorrowfulMoon posted 7/23/2018 08:58 AM

I think you did the right thing confronting at an early stage with many of the experienced veterans like Sharkman and MidnightRun agreeing also with Bigger. I think it may have stopped it going physical if it has not already done so. But that is not the end of this believe you me. There are too many red flags.

Try and be less passive. For example, insist on joint a 'No Contact' message and also insist that your wife reads 'Not Just Friends' and then get her to admit that it was an emotional affair.

Your wife needs to be more accountable for her actions and more willing to accept that she was in the wrong with all of this before you can even start to work on your marriage.

[This message edited by SorrowfulMoon at 10:02 AM, July 23rd (Monday)]

beenthereinco posted 7/23/2018 10:51 AM

I would keep looking as well and watching. The VARs are a good idea and I would get access to the phone records on line. I wouldn't be subtle about it at this point I don't think. I'd just tell her you want to log onto the cell phone account and ask for the log in. She can change her behavior going forward by getting a burner phone or something like that but she can't change the past and I think if you look at the account you are going to see texts and phone calls between them.

Also even if you believe the messages that you have seen are all of the contact then you have enough right now to tell your W that she needs to be No Contact with this guy right now. His profession of love should end their contact. He doesn't want to be a friend and she needs to end contact with him immediately. You need to insist.

confused1976 posted 7/23/2018 12:06 PM

Things have gotten a little weird -- I think my wife knows about my VAR orders-- -- I guess am not tricky and I think she may have pulled up my order online -- the orders were made days ago. I went to bed early, and left my computer on the table after working yesterday afternoon on a project. I bought some VAR that looked inconspicuous (at least to me), but now have appearances that are possibly compromised. I guess she knows my computer passwords. I found my computer browser open to the order page when I logged on this morning. Now I am wondering what else does she know about -- this site? My other purchases? Will this clue her to my surveillance? Will she use this as fodder for lack of trust against her?

Last night I was even regretting getting this stuff. I oscillate -- I feel as if I am crazy for thinking this at all -- I know I have good reason to believe some of this, but I am in denial and I don't want to. This whole thing is making me sick and tired and I can't think straight. Last night, I thought things were going well and believed that there is no way possible that this could be. Our kids are home; dinner was perfect. Everything was as normal as it ever has been. I had reread her last long text to this guy in which she apologized no being able to meet with him --it was sincere, polite, and labeled with sad emojis, but written completely from her side -- only I's -- still her language sounded as if they had only met that one time last year and only kept in touch online in between -- a sporadically at that -- I can find only five text message conversations between them. Maybe she wanted something to happen in the physical realm last week-- maybe for the first time or once again. Both possibilities are plausible. I tell myself, she wasn't in her home state since last summer -- she had a falling out with her sister late last summer, she hasn't been in the area for over a year and all her trips are elsewhere. Although, they might have met on one of her business trips, but the trips she took this year where short stay overs and long hours with little of no time off -- sure someone will say that a hookup takes only a few minutes, but I am pretty sure there be only a few minutes available.

I totally agree with everyone is telling me, thanks for some clarity. I guess that I thought my wife would have acted differently to finding her old friend on FB. I don't have FB, I don't keep in touch with people that way. I like talking and interacting with people face-to-face, I like talking. I have had women ask me out and each time I tell them that we (my wife and I) would love to -- I don't know their intentions, but I know mine. I go home and I tell my wife --no secrets, its honest. I guess I want to trust and let people make their own mistakes -- I guess this demonstrates that no one forces you to stray from your commitments except the person tempted to stray. I would have been totally cool to go to a bar with one of my wife's old friends male or female -- if she asked me like the original text suggested; but she never did. I pointed this our to her and she agreed but claimed that she was preoccupied with the business at her father's house. To be honest, if my wife wanted to go alone and see this guy -- before finding this other crap --I would have said fine too -- I trust her, I am not her keeper or her guardian, I wouldn't let her do this now now I have this enormous cloud of doubt.

I am rambling...I honestly don't have a clue of what to do or even what's going on, or what to believe. Now my VAR thing may be screwed. I don't have the money for a PI. I am second guessing every thing I have done. My wife reassures that I have nothing to worry about -- she told me she won't contact this guy anymore and that she has no problem with this. She even invited me to her trip next week. As I helped sort some of her photos from home and school, I found lots of pics of her and this dude. She's not lying there, she and this guy were friends -- none of the pictures were explicit, but they hung out in dorm rooms and hockey rinks and parties. She even admitted that she loved college and would return if she could -- in contrast to high school and grad school(where we met?). Do I read between the lines or not? I was hoping to get decent data to get some closure.
I'll try to get call records and forensic scan her phone, but I have only a few minutes access to it and then I am not even sure I am looking at the right phone -- she said something again about using different sim cards in a strange causal way -- what does this mean -- WTF is a sim card? how can this affect the phone records? can you even do this on an iphone? I don't have a cell phone and I am not on her and our children's plan -- but I still will try to get call records. Anyway, thanks for the support...if anything the process of writing this stuff down helps.

twisted posted 7/23/2018 12:10 PM

As one who suspected for a few months, don;t ignore your gut. My fWW had once mentioned that if she ever decided to cheat, I'd never catch her. She was right for a very long time, of course I never looked either.
I would do a little research and at least turn on her GPS tracking on her phone. This should give you a history, assuming if she has a burner phone, she would also have her regular phone with her too.
She will be more careful now that you have gave her concern. Confronting now or later is always a difficult choice, I would have waited, as it makes it more difficult to collect evidence when they are actively deleting it now.

Stevesn posted 7/23/2018 12:20 PM

Confused

I’d recommend using cash at a real store like Best Buy in the future so she won’t find the purchases.

But as I said in my very first post on your first or second page, I’m more of a talking truth kind of guy. A true WS will always find a way to be with someone if that’s what he or she wants.

My suggestion that others still may not agree with would be to keep the lines of communication open.

I’d tell her “this event has honestly hurt the trust I had in you. Combine that with how unromantic and unconnected we have been in the past, I feel our M is somewhat in a crisis. Your messages with this man are ambiguous at best and seem edited.

If this is the man you want to be with, then please go be with him. But if you want to be with me we are both going to have to show each other how important we are to each other.

It will take time and effort to rebuild that trust and connection. Are you willing to do that work? I am, but cannot and will not do it alone”

Ask her to copy you on any messages sent to other men and that you will do the same when you communicate with women.

Also, TAKE HER UP ON HER OFFER! Go to the conference with her. Use it as time to connect. I travel with my wife when she is on business and we have a lot of fun.

You can still do your investigation to verify what she’s saying. But without the talking you both will just be circling each other.

You are an honest guy. If you love your wife let her know it. Tell her you love her enough to work on the marriage if she will to. Otherwise tell her you love her enough to let her go if her heart is elsewhere. Tell her it will hurt like hell but you won’t atay in a one side relationship.

I wish you well.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 12:22 PM, July 23rd (Monday)]

Ripped62 posted 7/23/2018 12:42 PM

Your wife may possibly be checking your computer to figure out what you may know. My wayward wife checked mine and my phone. She eventually deleted everything on all electronic media and burnt my journal.

Your wife if she maintains this relationship will take it deep underground. There are a host of ways to communicate and their are a host of methods to eventually catch them. I am sorry for the situation she has placed you in.

I feel you should tell her in an open honest fashion this guy has to go. Her relationship was inappropriate and her actions have caused you great pain. Outline the facts as presented by other posters to you. State to her you require openness and honesty. These types of communication and interactions will not be tolerated. She needs to work on her boundaries and in the short term provide you with access to all electronic devices and applications for monitoring until trust is restored. She also needs to be very clear where this person fits into her life, what she has done with him in the past, and how she will protect the marriage in the future. This needs to be communicated to you as well. I would also require her to read "Not Just Friends." Even if she has done nothing physical it will help the marriage. For you, believe her actions. What she does and how she responds may be telling. It depends on her. Presently, it seems she stays miles ahead of you from your posts.

Ripped62 posted 7/23/2018 12:59 PM

You mentioned she has a second sim card. The second SIM card stores data for cell phone subscribers. Such data includes user identity, location and phone number, network authorization data, personal security keys, contact lists and stored text messages. Once you place it into another unlocked phone you have a second phone basically. One you have no knowledge of. Why would she need one? Do you have access to it? I would demand to review the contents if you do not. If she refuses or it has been wiped this could be very telling.

I am sorry you have been forced to go through the discovery process. I hate when individuals carry on relationships that are inappropriate and in secrecy. I hope she has told you all there is to know and your fears are unfounded. But, I would trust your gut.

Ripped62 posted 7/23/2018 13:06 PM

[From atreides] This is the quagmire that is in confronting to early and not holding to a strict plan...

I did not see Stevesn's post. I agree with this approach since you have had one confrontation.

It is similar to what I am suggesting. Maybe at some point she will provide you with the truth and transparency you require. Then the both of you can move past this difficult time in your relationship. Points I would be clear on is the friend has to go. Further communication with him or other members of the opposite sex in this manner will not be tolerated. No more gray areas.

Unfortunately you still have a significant amount of communication to do and discovery if you are so inclined.

1. She met him alone at a bar and didn’t tell you.
2. He professed his love for her and she didn’t tell you.
3. They chat on Facebook and she doesn’t tell you. The chat is edited or out of time and in terms of content.
4. “in one set of messages there was even the original arrangement to meet at the bar -- with my wife saying something like' how about 4, the usually time'. Which is weird because, we live 12 hours away- what is usual.
5. She has a second SIM card for another phone.

I am sorry you are here and your questions have not been answered by your wife. I hope she can clear all this up and merely has to establish better boundaries. But it is my opinion that you have caught a relationship at x stage and work should be accomplished to halt the EA or PA or keep it from progressing into one.

[This message edited by Ripped62 at 1:32 PM, July 23rd (Monday)]

Buster123 posted 7/23/2018 13:26 PM

I would ask her why she was "snooping" your laptop and browser history, and that if that's something she normally does, if not why do it now? (you were scared to snoop at her stuff and she doesn't think twice to do it to you as she sees fit), this is a HUGE red flag.

I would tell her that I'm deeply concerned about her "friendship" with this OM, I would give her a last chance for her to come clean, if she sticks to her guns then I will (regardless of her answer): I would then tell her to hand me her phone, after you have it in your hands tell her you you have a software that recovers all deletedc texts and chats (even show it to her on your laptop):

I would then DEMAND, not ask but demand for her phone passwords and all communication devices, laptops, desktop, email accounts, absolutely everything, I would also ask her about this sim card (a sim card is like a burner phone), tell her she has 30 to start giving you all this IN YOUR PRESENCE (she may not have had time or got around to delete everything), you also need to have a software in place to try to recover deleted texts, look for apps like WhatsApp, KIK, Snapchat, everything. I would also DEMAND she downloads copies of her phone bills, bank records and all credit card statements (look in her purse to see if all credit cards are accounted for and that they match the bills) for the last 12 months (at least) and to download it TODAY.

You may be in the fight of your life, step up to the place TODAY !!!

Robert22205https posted 7/23/2018 13:29 PM

Better to over react 'early' than try to play catch up. Next time maybe at dinner (in front of your family) in a non accusatory tone you should ask your wife if she's heard anymore from her old friend (including any FB contact)... so lying to you is lying to the kids. Watch how she reacts. So by no further contact does that include de friending him from FB? Maybe you should take her up on the offer to go to the convention with her. Cheaters often make offers that sound as they have nothing to hide - but they are hoping you say no.

TimelessLoss posted 7/23/2018 15:19 PM

confused1976,

I'm going to suggest a simplified approach that plays off only those things that you do know and what has happened between the two of you since you brought this up to her. This simplified approach accounts for the likelihood that your actions have been compromised. That is not good, but it is not the end of the world either. In fact, IMO you shouldn't even bring up the VAR order being brought up on your computer (more on that later).

1. Have a follow up conversation with your wife:
"I have given thought to our last discussion and what you said about my concerns"

2. State your fundamental issue: "As your husband, I have a problem with you maintaining contact with a friend from your past who now professes to love you, invites you to one on one meetups, to include a concert"

3. State why this is a threat to your marriage: "I've seen no evidence that you shut down his advances. This, coupled with not telling me, has created a breach in my trust"

4. Lean into her previous statements: "You said that you could see why his words and your actions could lead to a misinterpretation. I consider this to be minimizing the gravity of the situation on your part. As well, you invalidate my concerns by stating I have misinterpreted the meaning of him saying he loves you, him inviting you solo to a concert, you not shutting him down and you maintaining contact with him."

5. State the remedy you need: "I need you to expressly state to him in a written message (approved and verified by me) that you can have no further contact with him and you must block him on all platforms. This action on your part is a critical step in restoring my trust in you."

"You state that he is a friend, notwithstanding his words, and your actions in response to his words, that indicate it is not a platonic relationship. Your relationship with him does not enhance our relationship and our marriage. He stepped over the boundaries of your friendship with him by expressing his romantic intentions. You stepped over the boundaries of our marriage by not shutting down his advances and maintaining contact with him."

6. State the need for her to make herself accountable for restoring trust: "You state that I have misinterpreted the messages I read. As I previously stated, I strongly disagree with your assessment of the messages I read. Further, the content of those few messages read as if there were other messages. The context of those few messages is "off". Pieces are missing."

"Your actions, not words, will be the means I use to see if you understand the gravity of my concerns. Certainly you can hold fast to your notion that I have misinterpreted your friendship with a man who has expressed romantic intentions. That will tell me that you place a higher value on that relationship than me, your marriage, and your family."

"I cannot, and will not, control your actions. However, I will not accept you maintaining a relationship with a man who has told you he loves you."

7. Do not bring up the VAR(s), GPS, any surveillance of your computer. Instead, hope that she does and state: "That should signal to you my deep concerns about the gravity of this threat to our marriage. What are your reasons for having SIM cards which essentially means you have multiple phones using one device? Are you willing right now to give me your device, give me the SIM cards, and unlock them so I can read your messages?

As always, preface everything I write with "IMO", and conclude everything with "YMMV".


LtCdrLost posted 7/23/2018 15:32 PM

Your window for "grabbing the bull by the horns" is closing fast, Sir. Either follow Timeless Lost's advice to the letter or prepare for the shitstorm of the century. Your wife is either incredibly naive concerning the attention of this cocksucker, or she's in full affair mode. Whichever is true, you need to cease with your trusting and passive behavior toward her. Ruck up and move...

Bigger posted 7/23/2018 15:37 PM

Like I warned in my original post on this thread then this is an infidelity site and we could look at a brick and still see infidelity… I think you have a containable situation. I also think you have several red flags and warning-signs that you need to be alert to and track down. You do need to take them seriously!

A typical development on this site might be that posters are convinced your wife was cheating so they suggest you monitor her phone and have a var in her car. If you don’t catch anything on the phone the only logical explanation is that she has a burner phone. If you don’t catch anything in her car on the var the only logical explanation being that she talks to him at the office. The only logical conclusion to you not finding any evidence being that they have taken this underground and the very fact you can’t find any evidence proves she’s cheating. She’s carless about her phone therefore she’s cheating. She guards her phone and she’s cheating. She shows you affection and it’s a guilty conscience and therefore she’s cheating. She doesn’t show you affection and therefore she’s cheating…
Get it? There is no way anyone can win if the foregone conclusion is that she’s cheating and that if you can’t prove it then that itself proves she’s cheating…

If you research and investigate with the sole aim of discovering infidelity, then you might search and search with no conclusive result. If you research with the goal of understanding what’s going on than you might find infidelity, or you might find enough to convince you there is nothing going on. Right now, you and your marriage can’t afford any doubt but do your checks with an OPEN MIND. Don’t look for infidelity but look for the truth. DO NOT GO WITH A FOREGONE CONCLUSION!

Focus on REAL things and try to be as logical and factual as you can. Investigating can turn into quicksand where you keep sinking deeper and deeper.

Like emojis: If your wife is anything south of 40 years old then she probably doesn’t know the difference between one emoji or the other. Reading too much into if she once sent OM the Smiling-bird-in-a-nest emoji that for some sub-culture might be read as “I want a happy home” and then trying to deduct it’s a message that she wants to move in with him… GROW UP!
UNLESS your wife is IT-savvy and up-to-date on youth and/or online culture then whatever emoji she might have used was probably used because it looked cute.

My family uses a Facebook page for messages. My wife (+50) let us know a couple of months ago that there would be a vegetarian dinner that evening and ended the post with several eggplant emojis. Now go google what the eggplant emoji stands for… Do I really think my wife was sending me and our kids erect-penis symbols?


I told you in my first post that once you confront you need to be extra aware of their communications. An expected reaction IF they were cheating or IF she realized the relationship was going too far would be communications: “Hey M*** - H is on to us!” or “I need to stop talking to you for now. H is suspicious” or even “For some reason H isn’t OK with us talking so I have to stop”. Now it seems like you have seen the communications from her telling him she can’t meet him, and it sounds acceptable.

No – I am not naïve. Maybe your wife is aware of the VAR’s and only talks to OM on her burner-phone when locked in a bathroom cubicle at McDonalds. Maybe your wife has a fake Facebook profile only used to talking to OM. Maybe she tells you she’s going to Phoenix when instead she’s headed for Dallas to meet OM at the “usual” time. Maybe she’s the emoji queen and she and OM talk in code. But apply common sense and do REASONABLE and SENSIBLE research!


My next steps in your shoes?

Well… Remember that book I told you about? Not Just Friends? Get it and read it.
Then tell your wife that despite her words you are scared. That you have been doing some research and you fear that her response might indicate she isn’t aware of the nature of emotional affairs. How they usually start innocently and then develop. How she might even be involved in one without knowing it. Even then, even if she isn’t in a EA, then how YOU are justified in being concerned. Ask/demand she read the book WITH you and that you two do the exercises so that you BOTH better understand what’s going on.

Tell her the truth – that you fear losing her. That this isn’t done as a form of holding back on her freedom, but rather to protect what is dearest to you: Your family. That maybe you two have been taking things for granted and you want to make sure you are both happy. Ask her what she suggests improving your relationship. Suggest MC, a couple’s retreat, date-nights…

If she asks you why you ordered the VAR’s then tell her the truth. That for a period you were thinking of recording her BUT that you decided that honesty and communications would be better. After all – if she asks and if she was browsing your computer then we can give ourselves she’s added 2+2 and has a good idea what the VAR’s are for…

I also suggest you tell her the truth. That infidelity could wreck your marriage, but even worse than infidelity is the period from when one spouse has the gut-feeling something is going on until the truth is known. That IF there was something going on than NOW would probably be the only time she could tell you and still have a reasonable chance of saving the marriage. But that of two evils you would rather she divorces your than be in an affair.


HouseOfPlane posted 7/23/2018 15:48 PM

To be honest I have been suspecting that she may be involved in something for several reasons, our intimate life has dwindled in the past 15 years. Once, maybe twice a month and she never initiates anything.
There was an interesting study that showed the best predictor of marital success was the ratio of sex to arguments. I've posted this before...

https://www.businessinsider.com/formula-predicts-success-of-marriages-2012-12

Your comment above gave me pause.

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