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Shattered & Heartbroken

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sisoon posted 5/26/2019 12:47 PM

Sigh. I hear where you're coming from. I'm too exhausted to debate at this point.
No need to engage in a debate. You know your sitch better than any of us do.
I know what I believe. I know that no matter what I believe, I'm open to the possibility that I may be totally incorrect. If that happens... well, I'm gonna just pray it doesn't.
That reads to me like, 'I've given up trying to control the outcome.' If I read you right, that's a great step toward your healing and recovery.
For now, I shall watch her actions & listen to the subtleties of her words.
I'm going to suggest not expending your limited energy on the subtleties of her words. Rather, I suggest taking her words literally and asking questions if you don't get her meaning or if you don't believe her words.

I hope the IC is a good fit and very competent. BTW, you might find the cost to be a good investment - what you get from IC may help you increase your income.

You've got a plan that seems viable to me; that's a Good Thing. You seem to adjust your actions as new info comes in, that's a Good Thing. You have faith in yourself; I think that's a Good Thing, too.

I'm not surprised that Christian and Orthodox Jewish clerics have similar approaches to the horrors of infidelity. The rely on some basic texts in common (Old Testament), after all, and infidelity is so horrible to contemplate that anyone in his/her right mind wants to pretend it doesn't exist.

I will say that there are a few 'ask the rabbi' websites. I used one 8+ years ago even though I'm not Orthodox, and I got a much more nuanced response than I expected. The rabbi who answered my first question basically told me what SI says (I can choose D or R), in the context of Jewish law. The rabbi was kind and sensitive.

In the years since, I've run across a couple of fundamentalist Christian sites that provided nuanced responses to questions about infidelity, too.

IOW, you can get bad counsel from clergy, but you can get good counsel, too.

Personally, I figure the odds are better with therapists, though, because I figure therapists are more likely to have experience really dealing with this shit. JMO, of course.

SaddestDad posted 5/28/2019 13:27 PM

Today's been on and off for me.
I don't seem to be getting "shakes" in the manner others report, but I do have moments that I have to take a deep breath and let it out. When I do let it out, it almost sounds and feels like a shiver or a shudder.
Currently, I feel literal waves goi g from my chest up to the top of my head and back down... back and forth.

IC wasn't able to be done Sunday, since she remembered it was a holiday weekend, however, we're scheduled for first session this coming Sunday.

Right this moment, I'm having a real rough patch. I'm sitting in my car in the parking lot of an office I'm trying to turn into a client... it's so damn hard to drag myself to go in.

WW's friend still hasn't responded to the NC-request, even though WW softened the blow by saying it's temporary. WW told me on Friday that I need to stop asking her if the "friend" has responded or even acknowledged any more than having complained to the other friend that she's being cut out.
I guess it upsets me that I can't even ask or say "look, she's not even apologizing for all of the shit she put me through," because WW has said that if I do, she'll feel as if I'm cutting off her friends and being abusively controlling in the manner that this "friend" insinuated to begin with.

I absolutely fucking hate this daily cycle of anger/sadness/shame/humiliation/love/hate/dread/angst/horniness/disgust/excitement/lust/nausea/fear/incapability/patheticism/empathy/apathy/forward-thinking/reminiscing/mourning.

All of that exists as part of my every day life now. It's not just a rollercoaster... it's an unpaved road with curves, potholes, dips, dives and hills. It's a 2-way road that has just enough room for 1 car at a time (without mirrors before the curves).

For right now though - WHY CAN'T I SEEM TO DRAG MYSELF OUT OF MY CAR???

HellFire posted 5/28/2019 14:24 PM

Her entire response around this so called friend is bullshit. How dare she call you controlling and abusive when she has been the abusive one for several years.

The problem is, you are attempting reconciliation with an unremorseful,lying, abusive WS. It's not that she doesnt get it. She gets it. She just doesnt care.

Get out of the car. Hole your head high, and walk in that office like you own the place. Dont let this woman make you feel insecure. Have confidence in yourself. Her bullshit doesn't reflect on you. You are a good man,and you need this job. I mean you really need this job. Stay at home parents are in a very bad situation when you have an unremorseful WS. Because then the WS knows you can't leave, so they have zero incentive to be a decent human being.

Go inside. Do your job. And when you get home, stop being so nice. She told you you can't ask a question? Fuck that. Dont allow her to silence you. She knows you're not being abusive orcontrolling. She's on here. She knows what you are wanting is basic. But if she says you're being abusive, the nice guy in you starts to question your behavior. You are allowed boundaries. And if one of those boundaries is no more contact with the so called friend, then she either gets with the program,or she doesn't. She is not the victim here.

SaddestDad posted 5/28/2019 15:05 PM

How dare she call you controlling and abusive when she has been the abusive one for several years.
The problem is, you are attempting reconciliation with an unremorseful,lying, abusive WS. It's not that she doesnt get it. She gets it. She just doesnt care.

I'm sorry for the lack of clarity on my side, Hellfire - the friend is the one that was saying I'm being abusive and controlling, which is part of the reason I asked for NC with her.
What WW was saying regarding asking about the status of the NC's response (or lack thereof) was more of a suggestion since she's aware and remorseful of her wayward thinking and doesn't want to put me into a scenario that I'll instigate the wayward-based response. She knows herself well enough to know that by asking constantly ultimately would give her an her immediate knee-jerk reaction of defensiveness & she knows that she'd blame me for "losing a friendship," that was maintained for so long.
She doesn't WANT that to instinctively occur, which is why she begged me to hold back even though she knows I WANT to ask and (in some subtle ways) be a bit vindictive and say, "toldja so."
Regardless of that knowledge of mine, it has been frustrating to me knowing I can't ask because it would be self-defeating.

I may not be definitively sure about many things anymore (nor ever could be) but I will say that I know beyond any reasonable doubt that WW is remorseful, otherwise I would not even be here.

WorldTraveler23 posted 5/28/2019 15:12 PM

If she was deeply truly remorseful, she wouldn’t have “softened the blow.” If she was deeply truly remorseful she’d answer any question any time and not give you a guilt trip. You’re seeing what you want to see. We’ve been telling you for 17 pages that you’re picking what you want to see and ignoring the rest. You’re heading for a crash. The only way to save your marriage is to tell her you’re done with her half ass “reconciliation” and really mean it. This Jewish girl understands the orthodox community. You have made every excuse in the book for her and she keeps serving you shit (kosher) sandwiches and you keep insisting they’re delicious. Please wake up. Save yourself.

ChangeMaker posted 5/28/2019 15:16 PM

WW told me on Friday that I need to stop asking her if the "friend" has responded or even acknowledged any more than having complained to the other friend that she's being cut out.
Your wife doesn't get to determine what you can ask or how many times you ask it. SHE needs to do whatever it takes to make YOU feel safe enough to consider letting her have a chance to WIN YOU BACK.

Dude... if she can't stand that small thing... can she really do what's necessary in the long run?

LivingWithPain posted 5/28/2019 15:23 PM

I think The 180 is in order here. It will help you to gain some emotional dependence from her.

Have you looked that up in the Healing Library?

farsidejunky posted 5/28/2019 15:43 PM

SD:

Your WW really has it made.

She doesn't even have to rehash her excuses.

You are there to do so for her.

Please let this sink in:

It is perfectly reasonable for you to be unreasonable in this. Your last post simply illustrates how accustomed to manipulating your nice-guy attitudes against you your WW is...and how accustomed you are to being manipulated.

Be...fucking...unreasonable if that is what it takes to heal. If it doesn't work for her, show her the door.

SaddestDad posted 5/28/2019 16:11 PM

I hear what you're all saying.

You're not wrong regarding this friend.

I'm not trying to defend her not going NC with her, and honestly, I feel like she's basically a "platonic-AP."
And I've now made it very clear.

At this point, if she chooses her then she chooses against me and I'll act accordingly.

Dismayed2012 posted 5/28/2019 16:59 PM

May I suggest a post-nuptial agreement here? Your WW doesn't seem to be the best candidate for R. I'd like to highly suggest that you protect your future now by consulting with a divorce lawyer to learn what divorce looks like if you take that road and more importantly to have the divorce lawyer draw up and post-nuptial divorce agreement. I seriously think that it's in your best interest right now to hammer out and sign an agreement with your WW. It could be that going through this process will wake your WW up to the reality that you're getting serious and she needs to fall in line with your desires. On the other side of things, it will save you time and headache later on if the situation gets to the point that you need to put a permanent end to the insanity. No matter what ultimate outcome, a post-nuptial will give you a little piece of mind going forward. I wish the best for you.

Lp0725 posted 5/28/2019 16:59 PM

Your WW is extremely manipulative and she has you twisting yourself into pretzels trying to believe her lies. Her reasoning behind you not asking about her crappy friend is complete nonsense. Please stop giving her the benefit of the doubt. Also, please realize that the reason her friend thinks you're controlling and abusive is probably because that's how your WW has portrayed you to her. Also, why the hell did you even have to ask her to go NC with this toxic "friend"?? She should've been actively defending you, and she should've been offended by the suggestion that you're abusive to her. She should've been the one telling this woman to knock it the hell off! You're melting down because you're actively doing all the work for her when SHE should be the one putting all the work into saving the marriage. She screwed this up, not you. I really hope this therapist can help you step back and see the reality of your situation.

SorrowfulMoon posted 5/28/2019 17:30 PM

I think you are doing really well in the circumstances.

Don't expect too much too quickly. Becoming truly remorseful takes time; not many waywards can switch it on instantly. In fact if they did it would make one suspicious.

Be patient with yourself and with her. Concentrate on your job and building your own self worth. Don't push too hard for quick answers to all your problems.

I used to negotiate a lot at work and if I was pressed for a quick answer then I told them it would be 'no' if they continued to demand one instantly. They then respected my strength and resolve not to be bullied or harassed. Sometimes you just have to let your sub conscious (i.e. your guts) make the decision. Yours is a very complex situation emotionally and factually. Your brain is a remarkable computer and if you give it time it will give you the right answer eventually.

Just observe her actions but don't press too hard too quickly, that is both needy and unfair.

HellFire posted 5/28/2019 17:38 PM

I see regret. I see she is sorry she was found out. I see sorrow that this is something she has to deal with. I see regret that you are hurting.

Many of us don't see remorse. Not in your posts about her actions,and not in her posts.

I am honestly trying to help you here. The very last thing I want to do, in my comments to you, is cause you further pain or stress. Can you, when you have a moment, tell us all what it is we are not seeing? You are adamant that she is remorseful. What is it you see as remorse,that the rest of us aren't seeing? Tears don't equal remorse. Action does. Tears are self serving. Sitting around crying, or looking like she is sad mean nothing. Is she sad because of what this is doing to her? Or sad because of what it's doing to you?

What specifically is she doing that makes you sure of her remorse?

pureheartkit posted 5/28/2019 17:46 PM

SD, wish you didn't have all these emotions coming at you making the day difficult. I agree with hold your head up and when you get out of the car, go somewhere private and stand legs apart and hands up in the sky like an X. This posture gets the confidence brain chemicals going. It's the winning the race pose and people do it before meetings, interviews, etc. It works. Sit in front of the person you are meeting, legs apart, spine slightly forward, head up. Use your hands as you talk.

Did you know when interviewers picked applicants based on a photo alone the open more assertive pose has chosen by a large margin? It works.

It will give you confidence too. Go in on time or early and think of what interesting thing you might learn from someone.

Sitting in your car curled in on yourself won't give you that assertive body chemistry. You need to stand up arms up and hold it for at least 3 minutes. Then your brain will release the things you need.

I agree with you on the friend.

SaddestDad posted 5/28/2019 19:06 PM

Can you, when you have a moment, tell us all what it is we are not seeing? You are adamant that she is remorseful. What is it you see as remorse,that the rest of us aren't seeing? Tears don't equal remorse. Action does. Tears are self serving. Sitting around crying, or looking like she is sad mean nothing. Is she sad because of what this is doing to her? Or sad because of what it's doing to you?

What specifically is she doing that makes you sure of her remorse?

Honestly, I could, but (and please don't take this the wrong way) any explanation of such is going to be met (not necessarily by you) with cries of:

"You're defending her!"
"You're not looking clearly!"
"You're not doing the 180 as you should!"
"You're letting her walk all over you!"

I'm not saying in any way whatsoever that I'm feeling attacked (I KNOW I'm not being attacked & I'll be the first to call it out if/when it seems that way), I'm just pointing out the trend as I see it applicable to this specifically...

Now, that being said, I know that there's much merit to those statements, whether I do elaborate or not, and I know that many BS' here have good reason to feel that way.

Although I'm not going to go into what I see other than what I've already listed, I will answer regarding the 180.

I've actually been doing a strategically modified 180 since the aftermath of DDay 1. If I would've done an outwardly noticeable 180, I know that would have only ended in further upset for me, as I know her well enough that it would have just frustrated her into not putting in any effort.

I hope that one day I'll be able to list the exact ways that I've been doing so without having to worry that it'll be retroactively unproductive (once the outcome of R or D is final).

One of the ways that I am giving a chance for R (again, no hopium nor trying to establish control over the outcome) is by giving her the chance to prove herself a bit at a time.
I won't accept major backsliding, but I do know what it's like to not only change my behaviors but my origin thoughts as well.

For those who don't know, I literally gave myself CBT to change my outlook internally and externally over a decade ago.

I was a horrid and atrocious person back then. I was the kind of guy that you'd wonder not IF but rather WHEN I'd end up in prison, or when I got out (although I never did go to prison, knock on wood lol).

Regardless, I was never wayward, nor do I ever want to be. This has been the most hurtful thing ever to happen to me.

Will I ever truly understand it all? Nope.
Is there a chance that I'm never going to truly heal? Yep.

Is there a chance that she may never become truly safe? Yes.
Is there a chance that she's COULD, though? Yes. At least that's what I see right now...

I can't expect her to be safe and TRULY 100% remorseful only (almost) 4 months out from DDay 1. Expecting that would be as ridiculous as expecting myself to be healed at this point.

Since I understand that, I will say this - I'm NOT defending wayward thinking nor actions, rather, I'm explaining them as I see them to try to give you a glimpse into both of our minds in the hope that someone somewhere may have some sort of growth and benefit from my own struggles.
There's only 1 SD in the world... but there are so many of us that sadly share many common factors that even if it's just ONE person that can see the parallel & learn and grow from my experience without me ramming it down their throat, my frustrations have at least served someone.

This isn't me being "the nice guy" even if it looks that way to myself too. This is me being the observer in my own shit-sandwich that's been served.

Nobody deserves living through the torment of knowing their wife fucked another man.

Nobody should ever go through what I went through, nor what I'm currently going through... but it's not an ideal world.

So, my apologies for the rambling post. Long story short, I do see remorse - and it's not hopium talking.
I bid you all a better evening than mine.

66charger posted 5/28/2019 22:10 PM

It is to difficult to write on JFO without feeling you need to bring a Home Depot supply of 2x4s. I will never understand the self inflicted pain of a BS in denial therefore it may be best edit out and wish some well.


[This message edited by 66charger at 11:12 PM, May 28th (Tuesday)]

SaddestDad posted 5/29/2019 05:22 AM

Cheers to a better day, all. 🍻

ShutterHappy posted 5/29/2019 05:49 AM

I think your WW is going NC with her friend because you asked her to, not because she (the friend) is toxic to your marriage. I don’t think she gets it.

Ask her why she went NC with her friend.

SaddestDad posted 5/29/2019 12:18 PM

I think your WW is going NC with her friend because you asked her to, not because she (the friend) is toxic to your marriage. I don’t think she gets it.

Ask her why she went NC with her friend.

I can understand why it looks that way. Again, not to defend or debate, but I DID ask her why she did initially go NC, then tried leaving the door open for this friend to "sincerely apologize" to come back into our graces.
She explained that yes, she did do the NC initially for my sake. Once she did, she then took a step back and reevaluated the relationship with said friend (again, whom I consider "Platonic-AP" through her own looking back at text conversations, in-person discussions, etc - and she realized for herself without coaching nor coaxing that this person IS a toxic element to our M and has resolved of her own accord that this person is no longer an element in our M nor her circle of friends in any way.

One thing that did stand out for her to make said realization WAS my categorization of this person as "platonic-AP" and showing the parallels in rationale between a WS who pines for their AP in the very same manner and is "afraid" of the unknown/lacking the proper boundaries that should have existed from the beginning.

Explaining it to her in that method did not make WW choose to go NC solely based on my comfort. Instead, it gave her clarity as to how poisoning this "friend" has been for years, as well as what keeping her around would do to us and our M, which is ultimately why she understands the need for (and chose) to go NC with her.

I'm done explaining her rationale, as this has been putting me into a very frustrating spot (almost as middle-man) between her & you concerned folk (which I appreciate immensely) while also confusing me as I do understand what she intended to begin with &what that morphed into, as well as how you all see it and why.
It's been a challenge for me to take that step back. It's still a challenge for me, but I don't have any reason not to.

I'm bringing this thread back to the roots, which is to discuss (and, hopefully, receive support on):
MY feelings
MY wellbeing
MY difficulties
MY healing
MY challenges
MY needs
MY understandings

The longer I spend focused on hers, the less time I have to focus on me.

I need to focus on me.

LivingWithPain posted 5/29/2019 13:31 PM

Good luck to you. I'm out.

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