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Shattered & Heartbroken

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Odonna posted 5/30/2019 19:55 PM

One more thought:

I will admit though that even though I know it's up in the air whether it's D or R and can't be determined yet one way or the other, envisioning anything other than R still scares the absolute shit out of me.

Why does divorce scare you so very much more than the prospect of living the rest of your life without ever really knowing the truth, of constantly suspecting your wife, of not feeling loved, of not trusting? Really think about the toll that false R would take on you....

SaddestDad posted 5/30/2019 20:04 PM

Are Fridays bad because the distraction of work on weekdays is coming to an end and you have to face the intense family life of the weekend? Is it exacerbated by the restriction of activities allowed on the Sabbath? Or is there a religious component because of the expectation of intimate relations on Friday nights? Or just the introspective nature of your religion and the tension that poses for you in your personal circumstances?

Honestly - I'd say yes to literally EVERY single one, except the present expectation of intimate relations. To clarify, it hurts AF knowing the following things:
If I weren't religious at the time we met, she wouldn't have gone for me in any way. Sabbath was ALWAYS the most challenging of things for me to begin observing again, and I had asked her many times if, in her past, she had ever not been sabbath observant.

1a. She had said she always was. After DDay, I discovered this to have been a lie (much like the one claiming she never took pics or videos) when I looked at the timestamps on the pictures she had sent to others (one having been one of the "minor" AP's) having been taken ON sabbath.
1b. When we were engaged, I had seen at least a few times when her Facebook Messenger & WhatsApp had shown last active to have been on sabbath, and I had asked her about Facebook - she had said it must've been a glitch.
1c. After DDay, I saw that at the time I had asked that, she had Googled how to turn off last active in Facebook. VERY wayward-minded, no?

2. Although it's not an expectation specifically for Friday-nights for us any longer, during the duration of her cheating, it WAS an expectation that I kept to since it was the only time (when she wasn't "unclean" that there was usually no excuse for denying sex.
I think that knowing that now makes me somewhat disgusted for having been whipped into ignorance while making that night as romantic as I could EVERY time (until she told me to stop making it into a "production".

And yeah, I'm sure that the technological restrictions & inability to be distracted by work DEFINITELY play a role in my inability to focus on anything other than the A-thoughts & triggers.

SaddestDad posted 5/30/2019 20:14 PM

I do suggest you make the focus be your questions about their lives and how they are doing, rather than a data-dump of your current devastation

That's exactly what I'm trying to avoid. I'm trying to just reconnect with friends who don't know about the A so that I don't feel the need nor capability to discuss it with them.

Why does divorce scare you so very much more than the prospect of living the rest of your life without ever really knowing the truth, of constantly suspecting your wife, of not feeling loved, of not trusting? Really think about the toll that false R would take on you....

I really have no clue as to why it's such a great fear. I wish I did.

Odonna posted 5/30/2019 20:35 PM

Thank you for answering my questions. I do not ask them lightly, as you are already under interrogation by yourself. Everyone wants to help you, so knowing the answers is important.

I hope you sleep well tonight and wake up to a Friday that is just another day.

[This message edited by Odonna at 8:36 PM, May 30th (Thursday)]

Odonna posted 5/30/2019 20:54 PM

One more question: how do you feel when you watch her bless the candles and the children are adoring her? What is in your heart in that moment? Is she the one you want the kids to look up to as a role model?

SaddestDad posted 5/30/2019 21:08 PM

One more question: how do you feel when you watch her bless the candles and the children are adoring her? What is in your heart in that moment? Is she the one you want the kids to look up to as a role model?

I don't always get a chance to watch, as I come home just in the nick of time to shave, shower & change... but when I do - at that very moment I feel sheer unadulterated (pun unintended) and pure love. I see her at those moments completely herself, focused on the blessings and to accept them on our family's behalf.

I actually just asked her to read the English translation since we both never knew it.
There were certain parts that we both teared up. Now that she knows what it truly means and how contrary she was acting versus what she was praying for on our behalf... I'm pretty sure she's going to be crying every time she lights the candles for sabbath... for the past as well as the future.

Odonna posted 5/30/2019 21:22 PM

I am not Jewish but in my teens I studied many religions very studiously. I very much respect Jewish traditions and how they are rooted in respect for each other.

I believe your devotion to your religion, and hers, may be skewing your thought processes. In the end, you have only this one life to live. Live it well.

Odonna posted 5/30/2019 22:55 PM

Are you saying that you both pray in a language you do not fully understand? You do not understand the original Hebrew prayers?

ETA I do not mean any offense by the question. I understand Hebrew is quite difficult.

[This message edited by Odonna at 6:40 PM, May 31st (Friday)]

Butforthegrace posted 5/31/2019 05:22 AM

I completely understand your trepidation about D. D is a real fear for many married people, betrayed or not, because of the paradigm shift it represents. We become comfortable with viewing ourselves in the world from within the lens of being part of the family unit. It becomes an institution that is cemented in large part by the unconditional love parents naturally feel for their children. It is a loving, warm place.

Being divorced means no longer presenting to and within the world in this context. It almost feels as unnerving as one of those unwittingly naked in public dreams.

This is part of the so-called "shit sandwich", the awful choice a WW thrusts upon us with her bullshit actions. Remain in a marriage with an abject liar and cheat, a person for whom our primary emotions will likely range from bitterness to scorn, but preserve all of the rest of the family unit structures; or divorce and obtain freedom from the cheater, at the cost of breaking apart the family.

I completely empathize with SaddestDad on this point. There are of course countelss examples of divorced parents figuring out how to successfully coparent, and children of divorce thriving and succeeding under the umbrella of such efforts. However, there is no assurance this will work. A future after divorce is a great unknown for a person in SaddestDad's position.

By the way, other than the possibility of restrictions due to your faith, I would remind you that your choices are not binary (D or Not-D). You could, for example, tell your WW that you want to have an emotional separation so that you can date other women and see how it feels. That would, among other things, take your power back and thrust the awful choice back onto her plate.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 7:50 AM, May 31st (Friday)]

Cooley2here posted 5/31/2019 07:20 AM

One of my best friends is Jewish. She is not particularly religious but she has explained to me how necessary the rituals of your faith are. They connect you to the worldwide Jewish family. Although she and her family do not usually celebrate the Sabbath they certainly do the high holy days. They become a Jewish family in every sense of the word during that time. I am writing this to those who, like me, are not Jewish to help them understand why you are having such difficulty trying to decide what to do. There is a fabric that you are a part of that you do not want torn asunder.

My suggestion to you is to use therapy to find yourself. Define your strength and your needs. To find where you want to be and what you want to do in the future. You need to make decisions from a place of strength. You certainly do not need to make decisions from a place of sadness, or fear, or weakness.

Your wife has some form of sickness and sadness that needs to be addressed for her to make decisions as well.

SaddestDad posted 5/31/2019 09:00 AM

Although she and her family do not usually celebrate the Sabbath they certainly do the high holy days. They become a Jewish family in every sense of the word during that time

Even if they're not always practicing, they're ALWAYS a Jewish family.

I believe your devotion to your religion, and hers, may be skewing your thought processes.

I've always believed this in one form or another my entire life, which was why I became totally irreligious when I went through my rebellious stage... and it's also the exact reason why I said before that I'm not going to waste my time speaking to a Rabbi. I'm (un)fortunately way too aware of the world to limit my healing to the cookie-cutter mold of inexperience... [does that make as much sense reading it as it did in my head?]

Are you saying that you both pray in a language youbdo not fully understand? You do not understand the original Hebrew prayers?

Well, to an extent, yes. There's much Hebrew that we both do understand. Your jaw would drop if you'd see how much praying is done on sabbath in an Orthodox synagogue, not to mention the daily prayers & the special holidays.

The prayer that is said after the blessing for candle lighting is something that only women do - men don't, so I never had any reason to look up the translation.
Since it was something that she does every sabbath (and is an expected routine) she never really looked to see the exact translation either.

The translation (I'm truncation so that this doesn't become a theology lesson and annoy the mods lol) is as follows. I'm also going to bold the specific parts that I think really hit it home for her since we read it up:

... to be gracious to me (and to my spouse, children, parents) and to all my family grant us and all Israel good and long life remember us for good and blessing consider us for salvation and compassion bless us with great blessings make our household complete, crowning our home with the feeling of Your Divine Presence dwelling among us.

Make me worthy to raise learned children and grandchildren, who are wise and understanding, who love and fear God, people of truth, holy and attached to God, who will dazzle the world with Torah and goodness and service of God.

So yeah, I guess that's part of my bitterness as to how many times she said that prayer while doing exactly the opposite of what she was asking for her/us to be blessed with.

My suggestion to you is to use therapy to find yourself. Define your strength and your needs. To find where you want to be and what you want to do in the future. You need to make decisions from a place of strength.

That is DEFINITELY my intention. First IC session for me is this Sunday, so I hope it goes well...

[This message edited by SaddestDad at 9:01 AM, May 31st, 2019 (Friday)]

ThisIsSoLonely posted 5/31/2019 09:15 AM

Really think about the toll that false R would take on you....

As someone who has been through False R (for over a year) I can tell you the toll is IMMENSE and for me was/is 100x worse than the A itself. I can say that while there has been a benefit (I found out that I am a lot stronger than I thought I was and I have no trouble setting my own limitations on what I will and will not accept in my life generally) it has not been worth the toll on my ENTIRE life. False R is a special kind of hell...avoid it at all costs as being alone is far better than false R ever will be.

SaddestDad posted 6/2/2019 16:40 PM

False R is a special kind of hell...avoid it at all costs as being alone is far better than false R ever will be.

I know. I appreciate the advice. Thank you, ThisIsLonely.

So, I went to IC for first time today. I think it was good...

One thing that WASN'T good about today is just that today fucking blows.

Every day fucking blows.

Oh, and so far it's come out that WW was, in fact, with POSOM one of the times I suspected... I guess she just didn't remember (sarcasm).

8 days from now is anniversary of the day I proposed.
She should've just said no.

Rustylife posted 6/2/2019 17:59 PM

I feel for you with every update man. You have kept digging at her to the detriment of your health. And every time it's the same thing. Can't remember due to guilt/trauma. Laughable excuse. Such a blatant lie. Just stop. It's torturous. Am I right in thinking that you've gone through the entire text/internet history of the 5 yrs you've been together? That's just insane.

I have a coworker who's from India. They have arranged marriages with barely any courtship as well. He hadn't even met his wife before his wedding day. It seemed so weird to me. Initially it was a struggle for them but now they're very happy together. Your marriage came about in a very similar way. But there's a fundamental difference. They both made a commitment to work on growing together, trying to understand each other and it was an honest attempt from them both. Your entire history with your wife is a lie. She has withheld affection upto DDay. It's just such a shame that you find yourself trapped in this.

Maybe she discloses. Maybe she doesn't. It just doesn't matter imo. This is just not a feasible relationship in my eyes. There's nothing to build on. You can keep bartering for basic affection- that was never natural for her towards you-by using her guilt till the end of your days. Or you build something new with someone who loves you.

Keep focusing on the job and kids. Regularly visit the IC(Glad you could manage to arrange that) . Really try to figure out what you want your life to be. Let this relationship fall where it may. It's just not your responsibility right now.

Oh and I thought about this a few days ago. I think she's minimizing her feelings for the OM1. Trying to give the impression that she never thought it was a deep connection or someone she wanted to build a life with. I think that's a lie. And we haven't even discussed the other affairs. Such a tough spot you're in. But I can see you analyzing it all much better now. IC will help with that.

[This message edited by Rustylife at 6:01 PM, June 2nd (Sunday)]

SaddestDad posted 6/2/2019 18:09 PM

I've been going through her history ever since DDay 1. Mostly on my own but sometimes together with her just to prove some points to her.

Oh and I thought about this a few days ago. I think she's minimizing her feelings for the OM1. Trying to give the impression that she never thought it was a deep connection or someone she wanted to build a life with. I think that's a lie.

Oh, don't worry, Rusty. I'm well aware that she's been minimizing that. I've called her out in it & actually proved it to her in a few ways, but she is still in denial about that.
A guy who was trying to get in her pants right before I met her had a very long convo with her.
After she disclosed that she's not a virgin, he asked her if she'd ever marry a non-Jewish guy.

She had responded with (slightly paraphrasing), "I've actually considered it. I've gone very low since my seminary days. I realized how low I've gotten when I thought to myself, 'at least my kids would be Jewish'!"

She has claimed over and over that it was a joke/an in-general view, not related to POSOM, but based on timing & the fact that he was the only one she's had multiple pregger-scares with due to unprotected banging.

Unbroken78 posted 6/2/2019 18:12 PM

If you don't mind touching on this subject once again...


Do you really believe the "I don't remember" line? Seriously...and I mean this with absolute respect, does she remember anything from her entire life? Does she remember her name? How about her address or her phone number?

Unless she had a massive head injury, it is impossible to believe that she has a total lack of memories surrounding the most dishonest and betraying parts of her marriage...conveniently.

Either she has a brain injury...or that is total nonsense minimization.

Good luck to you. I don't think I could see remorse in someone who "can't remember"...

SaddestDad posted 6/2/2019 18:14 PM

Am I right in thinking that you've gone through the entire text/internet history of the 5 yrs you've been together? That's just insane.

I actually went back way further than that in order to determine a properly undiluted baseline to understand her internet trends and history. Pretty sure I went back to 2009 at one point.

SaddestDad posted 6/2/2019 18:16 PM

Do you really believe the "I don't remember" line?

In some instances I do. In others I don't, and I call her out on those instances.

Today's details are one of the instances that I don't believe.
Truth be told, I don't believe her about any of the PA details other than the ones I could corroborate to have, in actuality, been, "almosts."

Rustylife posted 6/2/2019 18:33 PM

Pretty sure I went back to 2009 at one point.

And I wish that you stop. This isn't good for you. You're almost manic about making this reconciliation happen. I've said it before and I'll say it again. The way this is going, this is just the tip of the iceberg. Can you guarantee that they weren't physically intimate after the marriage? You mentioned the 'almost' meetings in your very first post. Eventually the truth will come out. Your EA only illusion has crashed and burned spectacularly.

I didn't even know that your WW was on this forum. I won't bash a participating wayward but it all seems very calculated and perfomative to me. One post after every blowup to placate SD.

Did she take edibles or opoids with the OM? That'll be a half plausible reason for her memory loss What a joke.

Remove yourself from this reconciliation. It's going nowhere and brings you nothing but misery.

SaddestDad posted 6/2/2019 18:58 PM

And I wish that you stop. This isn't good for you

I'm aware. And also slowing down with my digging.

Can you guarantee that they weren't physically intimate after the marriage?

No, I cannot.

I hear what you're saying and I appreciate your concern, Rusty.
I'm not in lala-land. I'm not saying, "damn the torpedoes," in any way.

She's definitely fucked up. No question about that... but I'm still going to give this a chance IF she can prove herself to be sincere.

If I feel it's bullshit and she's still unsafe for me even after doing everything I have the patience for, I'll sadly make decisions toward next steps, and will tell you that you were right.

Until then, I hope you're wrong.

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