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Shattered & Heartbroken

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TimSC posted 6/9/2019 12:22 PM

Additionally, to quote her word-for-word:

"Everything that was on my list [of specific marriageable requirements] didn't matter when it came to you. I knew I could love you and that I would love you. You're the first person that got me to let my guard down. The first person I could truly feel comfortable around. You inspired me and gave me hope that I would be able to change so my past wouldn't dictate my future."

Sounds more like she was justifying buying a new car, than reasons for marriage.

"Would and could love you" are not the same as "I love you and want to marry you".

Makes me think of a reason for an investment rather than marriage.

pureheartkit posted 6/10/2019 15:41 PM

(((((((((SD))))))))))))))

SaddestDad posted 6/11/2019 13:18 PM

Correct or not, I see this as selling yourself out - there may in fact be something she needs to reveal that is a deal breaker.

There is something that would be a dealbreaker - but I'm keeping what that may be close to the chest.
Come to think of it, my W committed to staying with ow as her therapist early in their relationship, and I think that helped keep my W from stopping the therapy when it became not-therapy (months before the A began).

I don't think that I understand this specific detail... could you please elaborate?

Also, again, you really do sound depressed. The right med could help you in all sorts of ways. There are side effects - but not all side effects are negative some of them are unexpected and positive.

I know. Honestly, I believe that it's more anxiety than actual depression. I'm aware I need to speak with my doc again...

I hope you had a good Shabbat, and Chag sameach! I hope you got some peace and enlightenment.

Shabbat was anniversary of proposal. Was not restful, nor internally peaceful in any way whatsoever... sigh.

ETA: You and your W seem to have connected on a very deep basis. Those words of hers that you quote are very moving to me in very good ways. That doesn't mean you have to stay. Her A may have broken the bond.

But you and she had and may still have something very good. That says something very positive about you ... don't forget that.


I appreciate your advice and insight, Sisoon. To be blunt though, what we had wasn't truly good, as it was (in retrospect) utterly one-sided.
It did, however, start to become something good once the A fizzled out - and, odd as it kay sound... has been becoming something better ever since DDay 1.
I'm not happy that I discovered any of this, because there's absolutely no way that I can be happy that she did what she did to begin with... rather... I guess I'm kind of vindicated(?) that my own sentiments and attempts at intimacy were NOT failure on my side in any way. I guess I just have a little bit of comfort in that knowledge.

pureheartkit posted 6/11/2019 16:14 PM

I'd rather have the truth of my life too.

waitedwaytoolong posted 6/11/2019 17:19 PM

Correct or not, I see this as selling yourself out - there may in fact be something she needs to reveal that is a deal breaker.

here is something that would be a dealbreaker - but I'm keeping what that may be close to the chest.

The point I was making is that most likely there is way more here. How do you "forget" the things she claims to have forgotten. SD deep down do you really believe this?

SD from what I have read here, you want to keep his marriage at any cost. If you found out their were other guys, or she fu*ked this guy 25 times, my guess you would still work hard to save your marriage.

But this drip, drip drip, even if it doesn't kill your marriage, will kill your soul. The free pass is to just get this to stop for you. You say that you have a deal breaker. It may not be the most ethical thing, but even if you give the pass, if what she did was so heinous, and fell under the dealbreaker clause, divorce her any way and void the pass. Your pass versus what she did with her marriage vows is minor. She brought this on all on herself.

You just need to make this stop for yourself.

SaddestDad posted 6/14/2019 18:24 PM

SD from what I have read here, you want to keep his marriage at any cost. If you found out their were other guys, or she fu*ked this guy 25 times, my guess you would still work hard to save your marriage.

At any cost? No.
At this point, I'm working hard on saving myself.

That said, today was the FIRST Friday since DDay 1 that I was able to get through an entire workday without the darkness hitting me and making me unable to function!
Booyakasha!!

Booyah posted 6/14/2019 20:06 PM

Booyah!!!

Shadowfax1 posted 6/19/2019 14:01 PM

SD, I think the hardest thing for you might be the apparent contradiction between (a) your wife’s obvious love for you and (b) her history of experiencing more sexual freedom with another man than with you.

This might be an area where men and women differ. For men, a woman’s sexuality can feel like the indicator of how much she values her partner. For women, sexuality can feel deeply shameful, especially when expressed in ways (like at an early age or outside of marriage) which carry steep social penalties.

So I suspect you are horrified by the possibility that your wife valued a worthless adulterer more than she values you. And I suspect you have it backwards. Perhaps she experienced more sexual freedom in her affair than in her marriage because she knew the stakes were much lower. Because she values you much more than she ever valued the AP. Have you ever asked her?

Meanwhile, I suspect your wife *wants* to experience complete sexual freedom with you. She would much rather experience it with you where it belongs than in a bad place where it landed by mistake. And she can’t experience it with you because she is ashamed of her past and dreads that she is not good enough for you. You might ask her about this and see what she says.

One path forward might be to help her overcome her shame. Help her see that even though she has done bad things, you know she is a good person. And help her be the person with you that she longs to be.

To get a more specific sense of what she might need from you, listen to “Love Me Anyway” by P!nk. Your wife might need to know that you can accept and love her despite what she has done wrong. Next time she needs to remorsefully confess something to you, keep this song in mind before rushing to judgement and criticism.

I know this is a lot to ask. But I sense you are committed to doing what it takes to fully reconcile. And it might lead to the sexual validation that you really need from her.

Butforthegrace posted 6/19/2019 18:05 PM

SD, I should have asked my question differently. You asked about qualities in you that supported her decision to marry you and she provided a fairly generic and non-specific response.

What I'm curious about is why she decided it was okay for her to exchange solemn vows of marriage with you when, at the very moment she looked you in the eye and mouthed the words, she was lying to you. Directly to your face. In front of God and everybody. What was it about you that led her to conclude that this was an appropriate choice?

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 6:59 PM, June 19th (Wednesday)]

SaddestDad posted 6/19/2019 19:24 PM

What I'm curious about is why she decided it was okay for her to exchange solemn vows of marriage with you when, at the very moment she looked you in the eye and mouthed the words, she was lying to you. Directly to your face. In front of God and everybody. What was it about you that led her to conclude that this was an appropriate choice?

I can't answer definitively but definitely seems to me that she was obviously fucked in the head at that time.
Again, the Orthodox Jewish wedding ritual is all directed at the groom vowing everything because the rabbis who instituted the practices were (sorry mods, this is gonna come across harshly against my own religion but it's the only way to put in perspective) misogynistic chauvinists that knew absolutely zero about the real world and had such a pedestalian view of women in general that they would never fathom that a woman could ever have the ability to be the one to cheat on a husband.
I can give the following example of said "teachings:"

Out of the 10 paths of speech Gd gave to mankind, 9 are reserved for females and 1 for males, which is why women love to gossip and can't help themselves. Teeth exist to be gates to stem the flow of gossip.

Yeah, pretty fucked up. I know.
This was taught to my class in GRADE SCHOOL.
I'm not going to answer for her betrayal.
Especially when I've had those exact questions, BFTG.
I'm not rugsweeping either, but I've been coming to terms with the fact that there ARE certain things that she'll never be able to truly answer, this far out. This, sadly, is one of those things.

She didn't love me then... I know that now.

We got married October 2014.
I only started seeing true intimacy from her in 2016. Looking back, I attributed this to hormonal changes from pregnancy... and perhaps there WAS a contributing role. The times (again, sadly) do match up.
But, again, I don't think that I'll ever truly know the definitive and 100% answer to this question.

pureheartkit posted 6/22/2019 21:02 PM

She saw,something in you and chose you. I don't think it was trivial. I cared for someone I wasn't passionate about. Early passion often fades away. It's the deep, caring love that remains and builds. Do you see that happening for both of you?

How are you lately?

How are your little ones?

SaddestDad posted 7/11/2019 07:36 AM

Just checking in briefly.
I'm doing okay for the most part. The darkness still hits, however, I've been able to push through most of the times it's hit during work hours as long as I focus on being a workaholic hustler.

We haven't really had any fights or arguments for a couple of weeks now. One or two contention moments... but other than that, it's been pretty good.

I'm still nervous about my ability to retain my job though, as I no longer have my "happy tail-wagging puppy" personality that used to be so freaking successful in the past... I'm just too leery & paranoid of all people these days.

Rustylife posted 7/11/2019 13:10 PM

Not bad man. Doing a lot better now. I hope that the therapy has been helpful. On the job front, just do your best. Layoffs are so random these days, no need to worry about something you can't control.

sisoon posted 7/13/2019 14:47 PM

To answer your question from 5 weeks ago, my W made an open-ended, no limit commitment to ow, when she was ow's therapist. That what part of what kept her from ending the relationship earlier than she did.

Similarly, I think it's a bad idea to say to anyone, 'No matter what you've done up to now, if you come clean now, we'll ....'

A couple of other thoughts:

She said that she saw me as a marriage partner that she could spend the rest of her life with, she liked me & wanted to be with me. She saw the kind of father I could be, as well as other qualities of mine & that she could learn a lot from me, I made her laugh, I forced her to see the good in herself and made her feel good about herself. I was confident but not cocky - but most of all that I was a good person.

Additionally, to quote her word-for-word:

"Everything that was on my list [of specific marriageable requirements] didn't matter when it came to you. I knew I could love you and that I would love you. You're the first person that got me to let my guard down. The first person I could truly feel comfortable around. You inspired me and gave me hope that I would be able to change so my past wouldn't dictate my future."

50-odd years ago, I could have said the same to W2b, and I believe these things support strong, healthy bonds. This may not be a Plan B scenario in the least. And maybe I should bold in the least.

*****

Deal Killers If you think there may be a deal killer lurking in the background, why not deal with the possibility now?

I think you're doing yourself and your family a real disservice if you let the question persist.

The longer you stay together, the more tied to your current life you get. If there IS a deal killer, the sooner you find it, the sooner you can D and build lives as single parents and as unmarried individuals.

I think I can imagine some of the ramifications of being D'ed in your community, but you don't seem to be one who can live a lie.

Marz posted 7/13/2019 16:07 PM

I'm still nervous about my ability to retain my job though,

You should inform your superiors. They have probably dealt with this before. You don't need to go into detail.

SaddestDad posted 7/14/2019 22:46 PM

For everyone following both sides of the story (so to speak):

I respectfully request that y'all tone down the anger on my behalf toward WW.

This is not a tirade being made by me.

There are no defenses being dug in by me.

We're both working on ourselves individually and on us as a couple. SI is helpful for each of us in our own way (and I mean this in regards to each and every one of us who posts ...).

She's doing her best to be able to own up to when she makes mistakes... and we both know that she certainly ain't perfect.
I, however, am not in the desperate state at this time as I was in the beginning, nor is she still living in the lala-land that she put herself into for so long.
The animosity that's being shown would wear down ANYONE'S ability to feel like they're making progress. When someone feels as if their progress is going nowhere, they end up becoming frustrated and saying, "fuck it."
Causing someone else to do so is not a fair thing, no matter what the intentions behind it may be.

If you care about how this turns out for me & us and do not want me to feel like I, once again, need to take control of the outcome, I ask that you treat her with the respect that you yourself would wish to be treated with and for all of you to give up control of our outcome.

I am not making this into a separate thread on general because, quite honestly, I''m not trying to make this into a big thing & would really rather have this as an open statement to those who feel it potentially applies to them.

That is all.
Hope you all had an amazing weekend!

[This message edited by SaddestDad at 10:48 PM, July 14th, 2019 (Sunday)]

Sanibelredfish posted 7/14/2019 23:05 PM

I know you want more than anything to make this M work. But for that to happen you need to have a good and willing partner. To that end, you’d do well to consider the merits of what some of your WW’s detractors are saying in her thread. Especially the fWWs commenting on her thread. Good luck!

sensibletinch posted 7/15/2019 00:59 AM

SD, I'm rooting for you and your wife. The level of aggression in her thread is ridiculous. At this stage, you guys should really consider if posting here is beneficial for your recovery.

SaddestDad posted 7/15/2019 07:10 AM

At this stage, you guys should really consider if posting here is beneficial for your recovery.

Sadly, we are already discussing that. I say "sadly" because posting is one of the things she took on as part of her work in order to be able to see the progress she's making without running the risk of her inadvertantly rugsweeping.

I say "sadly" also because on dark days when I feel like I can't pull myself through to the brightness, this IS a good place for me to vent... the problem is that I really only use it for those times now, so it looks like I'm doing so much worse than I actually am. I guess that's really the biggest irony of it all.

HellFire posted 7/15/2019 08:47 AM

There are a handful if comments on her thread that will probably get the poster booted from the ws forum. There are many, many more comments on her thread that are aimed at helping the both of you. The good should far outweigh the bad.

We are calling her on her shit. Her lack of empathy. Her lies.

Sometimes a WS will leave because members are hitting way too close to home. They can often see things the BS doesn't see, and the WS doesn't want them to see. They get upset because they manage to convince their BS, and often themselves, but then come here and people find the contradictions in their story, and suddenly SI is no longer helpful.


Again, I don't deny some posts crossed a line. Keep in mind the WS forum is a very well moderated forum. Those that have been aggressive will be dealt with.

[This message edited by HellFire at 8:49 AM, July 15th (Monday)]

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