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Different perspective 2.0

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Atg100 posted 1/19/2020 18:01 PM

I donít expect her to change.
But being angry with her gives her a power, which she doesnít deserve.
You describe that over time, they donít matter any more , and I think thatís a good mindset to be.
And I would never go to her and say ď I forgive you, letís be friends ď.
That would be self destruction .
I will never change my boundaries with her, itís Grey Rock and parallel parenting for me.
Forgiveness will be firstly for me: accepting that other people mess up , intentionally in a narcissistic way.
But Iím grateful it all came out - the alternative would be to still be in a relationship with her.
So, I need to find a way of getting rid of the anger, without opening a door for her - she would definitely try to manipulate and abuse me.

NoOptTo posted 1/19/2020 18:18 PM

What worked for me many years ago was accepting that she was a flawed person. She succumbed to her desires for attention and validation. She became someone that I could no longer have in my life. After having years of anger towards her, while going NC, I accepted her personality and quietly forgave her for her short comings. I heard through friends that she had married and divorced twice. Just felt pity for someone who hasnt grown into their potential.

But during those years til I forgave her, I refused to hear much about her. If I ran into her, I showed her no emotions. She stopped contacting me over time and even tried to relay a message to me through friends on my wedding wishing me well. I refused to hear it, she was my past and she will always remain in my past.

The thing that most helped my healing was writing all my attributes I brought into our relationship and the the attributes I gained during the relationship. I realized at how much I have to offer. And, one day life will be better with or without someone in my life. So try to find your zen. Only you can make you happy. Once you find ha6in yourself, you will find your anger towards your XWW will slowly dissipate.

Marz posted 1/19/2020 20:35 PM

So, I need to find a way of getting rid of the anger, without opening a door for her - she would definitely try to manipulate and abuse me.

Acceptance is the key.

This is who she is, was and will always be.

Many cling to anger wanting/expecting them to ďget itĒ which puts you in a constant state of disappointment and frustration.

When youíre in that mode you are the one who doesnít ďget itĒ. That is who they are.

Would you expect your cat to be a dog?

Atg100 posted 1/19/2020 21:54 PM

No, I donít think I can change her .

I just need to put a mental red line under everything and be able to say :
1) Shit happens
2) Iím so much better off now , compared to how I was when I was in a relationship with her
3) my relationship with that flawed person was final. I forgive her actions because that frees me and allows me to carry on with my life .

As I said before - Iím just on guard , because even the slightest act of kindness would be manipulated and abused.
But being angry is also exhausting

[This message edited by Atg100 at 10:15 PM, January 19th (Sunday)]

Stevesn posted 1/19/2020 22:38 PM


Itís been a while, but Iím always reading and watching. Just felt youíve been on the right track and when needed, have been getting great advice from AFL and others.

But I felt I could comment on this latest comment.

For me, when it comes to Divorce after infidelity, Forgiveness comes after Indifference. When you reach a point of true indifference, where you wish her well in her life, but truly have no emotional attachment to what happens to her, then I believe forgiveness will naturally follows. You wonít have to force it.

And the only related thought I have to that, is personally when I forgive, I forgive the person, but not the act. Thatís just the way I feel. I would feel the same about forgiving the person if I was deceived by them thru infidelity and we were able to rebuild or if we went our separate ways. Iíd forgive the person, but never the horrible act.

In that way I acknowledge that people do make horribly poor choices, but that is life, and when I am ready to feel forgiveness toward that person, I naturally will, and wonít have to fake it just because I think itís important to do so.

Just some thoughts from me. I wish you well in your continued healing.

Atg100 posted 1/19/2020 23:10 PM

Thanks and good to hear from you .

Of course I want to forgive her firstly to free me of anger .
I am not indifferent to her quite yet - her stupid recent letter annoyed me , or when she refused to pay me back her insurance payments. But it doesnít hurt anymore .

You suggest - anger - > indifference -> forgiveness.

Iíd say anger -> acceptance -> forgiveness -> indifference.

Which truly are semantics .
But - and this is a highly theoretical question? Why would you need to forgive something , you are indifferent to?
Thatís a kind of ď never mind ď forgiveness .
Or ď no worries ď as we say here .

I just want a clean slate in 2020.

I can forgive but not condone or let my guard down.

[This message edited by Atg100 at 11:11 PM, January 19th (Sunday)]

Stevesn posted 1/20/2020 07:14 AM

I guess the point I was inadequately trying to make is that forgiveness, IMO, is something you canít force yourself to do.

You can say the words, to yourself or even to her, but that doesnít make it true.

I think Forgiveness is organic. It grows within you to the point that it is real. Itís an involuntary reflex in my way of thinking.

If you want to let someone off the hook for what they have done, you easily can tell them you forgive them, and from their perspective, theyíre likely to believe you because they donít know whether or not you truly feel that forgiveness. But they are going to assume you do because otherwise, why say it, and they truly desire that forgiveness.

But as the injured party, you will be able to truly forgive them, when you actually, for lack of a better way of saying it, feel that forgiveness inside of you. When your body and mind gives that to you.

If you do feel that way now, then great, but if you are not there yet, then I donít believe itís something that can be forced. Thatís what I was trying to say.

With all that said, Iím glad you are doing so well and you are enjoying life with your kids.

Freeme posted 1/21/2020 05:39 AM

The covert Narcissist in my life is my mother so our relationship is different. I think time, going low contact, being aware of her "condition", getting rid of any notion for a "normal" relationship and staying guarded is what has worked for me. I'm thinking of your term "forgiveness" to mean not letting her take up as much head space, being able to detach from her comments/actions quicker.

You are doing great and you are handling her very well. Keep doing what you are doing and it's going to get easier and easier. Keep ignoring her attempts at interaction and see them for what they really are.

She isn't going to let up for a while but there will be longer stretches between her fishing attempts. You will get more "fake apologies", you will also get irrational angry messages (uniforms, I could have taken you to the cleaners...) try to rug sweep them when you can... give short answers when you can and remember you can't reason with her.

Time - it will get easier with time. She might focus on someone else if she gets ignored enough. You might find someone special that takes your focus away from her injustice... Talking it out either here or to someone off line.

I think you are expecting too much of yourself too quickly. You have gotten so much better at recognizing her manipulations for what they are.

Atg100 posted 1/21/2020 13:46 PM

I am not sure if I am expecting to much too quickly. I hear your warning, of course.
I have learned about my past and am accepting my presence. It's not a straight forward process.
But - I am at heart "a nice guy".
My basic setting is to be an optimist, I trust people and I don't take myself too serious. I love to help others and have empathy.

All these characteristics were hidden under my anger. And the anger is in large part a defense mechanism.
My internal happiness had gone.
Many people on this forum here would say that it was taken by their cheating spouse.
But our happiness belongs to us ; its not theirs to take.
And to get there, I have to let go of my anger.

I am not there yet, but it's getting better.
My ex brought my kids back to me last night.
Our son still really suffers at the moment, so I take care of him. That's so much more important. I can't even blame her for his sadness.
Because I know, that I am so much better off without her. If I would say - this is her fault, I would indirectly mean, that it would be better if we would be still together. And that's not the case.
So, I focus on comforting him.

Atg100 posted 1/21/2020 15:16 PM

I have this friend who send all these inspirational quotes.

This morning she sent :

Be kind and full of love,
But have boundaries like a motherf....

I think that sums it up nicely.

Marz posted 1/21/2020 16:22 PM

Pretty funny but spot on

Atg100 posted 1/22/2020 13:55 PM

And why I need boundaries from a covert narcissist :
My ex wife emails ď my computer was broken, I have to reinstall Microsoft Office . Last time you could do that for free. Could you give me the details ?"

Yes, that was a licensed copy from my professional subscription .
For which Iím paying from my business account .

I will answer at a time of my choosing , probably never.

[This message edited by Atg100 at 2:59 PM, January 22nd (Wednesday)]

Marz posted 1/22/2020 13:58 PM

Not your problem. Ignore

Itís her way of being validated.

NoOptTo posted 1/22/2020 19:14 PM

Crickets.... do not respond. Not your monkey, not your circus...

AFL1000 posted 1/22/2020 22:39 PM

Yep ignore ...your ex fired you from the job of IT support. I know you wouldn't do it but tempting to tell her to ask if one of her Tinder dates is is handy with his hands fixing computers

Atg100 posted 1/23/2020 15:33 PM

I had comments like that a couple of times on my mind.
But - this would feed her narcissistic ego so much.
"Oh, he is jealous, because he is still so heart broken"

I have 3 days off to be with my kids towards the end of school holidays.
My boy has caught up with some of his best friends, unfortunately the parents are either Switzerland parents on on her team.
I got interrogated by one of the mothers whist the kids were playing. How I was? Am I seeing anyone?
And I knew that all answers would be transferred straight to my ex. So, I didn't mention her once and gave grey rock answers.
Her son is my boy's best friend, so I can't avoid her.
If I can chose who we catch up with it's usually other single parent families, they seem to get it more.

SnowToArmPits posted 1/24/2020 03:23 AM

Hey ATG, just read your thread. Whew, man you've been through the ringer.

Kudos you've handled a stressful job, a handful of a wife, and two young kids.

You've got a lot going for you, kids who love you, sounds like a solid network of friends, a good career, introspection, a toughness about you now to deal with your ex.

I get it, grey rock your ex. However, I really hope you'll share with SI when a girlfriend is a part of your life and your ex's head blasts into orbit when she hears about it.

Freeme posted 1/24/2020 13:50 PM

Concerning the ďfriendĒ asking you questions. Personally Iíd go with something like ďI donít feel comfortable talking about itĒ if she asks you about dating. This should end that line of talk but could be interpreted as ... yes or no.
Also if you answer her questions about how you are doing with vague but over the top happy answers she will stop asking. For example- our vacation was fantastic. The kids and I have really made a home of my new place. I love living there. Life is great, work is great, I really have nothing to complain about....yes this will be relayed back to your ex but they wonít be able to manipulate what you have said. If you gray rock her friend it can be read as... he seems angry or depressed or not as happy as he was with you. This will thrill you ex and lead to more questions from the spy... Just my two cents

Marz posted 1/24/2020 14:45 PM

Personally Iíd go with something like ďI donít feel comfortable talking about itĒ if she asks you about dating. This should end that line of talk but could be interpreted as ... yes or no.

You could also just say ďsorry but thats personalĒ.

She really hasnít any business sticking her nose in so I wouldnít worry about hurting some feelings here.

[This message edited by Marz at 2:46 PM, January 24th (Friday)]

Atg100 posted 1/24/2020 16:06 PM

The friend -
well, I did show her photos of our Bali trip, so it's obvious that I not am sad and depressed.

But I don't need to paint an overly positive picture, to find out what message gets fed back to my ex.

That's game play, I don't want to really engage in.

The more distance I get and look back at certain things, I catch myself "What the hell was I thinking?"
We were such different people, I blame myself a little bit that I didn't see that earlier.
But I am outcome orientated: This failed relationship gave me the two greatest gifts in my life, my kids. That is what matters.

I had a long chat with my boy (8).
He is currently doing it hard with the separation.

We talked about, being responsible for your own happiness.
About my love to him being a constant feature in his life, which doesn't need to be questioned.
Quite the opposite, when he misses me when he is at his mother's house, he can be reassured that not seeing me for a week, doesn't mean I'd love him less.

He got that message.
We talked about letting go of sadness.

And I had the feeling that he needed that chat.
He texts and does facetime with his mother a lot. And vice versa when he is at her house. It's good to have such tools.

( His old Ipad broke down after the Bali tip. It was 9 years old and clearly "had it". To ensure that he could talk to me whilst he is at his maternal grandparents for the subsequent week, I bought him a new one. Set it all up, it was working fine, and dropped it at my ex's house. They flew to Perth and - he couldn't use the ipad: My ex had logged in with her own apple id, facetime and texting didn't work and she claimed not to know how to fix it. So, I talked to him once on her phone, whilst the kids were over there. It took me half a second to fix it, when he was back here. And of course my ex and her parents text him now daily.
But what's new???)

[This message edited by Atg100 at 4:06 PM, January 24th (Friday)]

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