SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I'll try to be brief (very brief summary at bottom)

~6 months ago, found out my wife of ~4.5yrs getting emotionally close with a lesbian coworker. I asked her to end the relationship, as my intuition told me (correctly) that this was a threat to our marriage (no previous issues like this in our relationship).

Long story short, she continued it in secret, actively hiding their communication from me. When I caught her one night, she refused to let me read the emails, pulled the computer cord out of the wall, and took off (that was the end of June).

Since then, I've waited patiently and been unwavering in my attempts to reconcile our marriage. She has given lame excuses for wanting a divorce (too incompatible, she isn't happy in the marriage, I didn't meet her emotional needs, etc.). For the first couple months of separation, she was set on divorce and had completely moved on from our marriage. However, according to her, she began to feel intense guilt over the fact that I wasn't moving on and accepting her decision to end our marriage (I stopped working, was fairly depressed, etc.).

She agreed to try some counseling for two reasons: 1) to determine if divorce was "the right decision" and 2) because she was worried about me. We've tried counseling for about a month or so.

For several weeks now, I've had definitive proof that she has been having an affair with this woman coworker. I confronted her about this and she did open up about it more in a counseling session last week.

The issue is that she hasn't really shown any remorse for cheating on me. She has apologized before for "everything she's done to me", but hasn't seemed truly broken over the affair and relationship with this woman. She agreed to stop communication with the OW until she decides what she wants regarding our marriage, but is hesitant to be transparent (plus, we're separated and I have no real way of knowing whether she's honoring her word).

During our last counseling session, I was pretty hard on her, saying she is the most dishonest and selfish person I've ever known, and I don't understand how she could look me in the face after all her lies. She left the session upset (understandably so) and a few days after, said she decided that divorce was indeed "the right choice", though she hasn't filed yet.

My response was then that if she was sure of that course of action, we really have nothing left to discuss and can continue with IC (both with the same counselor who was seeing us together, just individually).

Our counselor made it clear during my first solo session with her that we should continue in counseling together as that would be most effective. However, due to the fact that any interactions with my wife seem toxic right now (and make me feel more depressed and down about life), I said I don't know if I can do that.

tl:dr / Summary

After cheating on me with another woman, my wife is the one who has decided to end our marriage (no divorce filing yet), but does want to process our failed relationship together in couples therapy. I have been resolute the entire time to salvage and heal through this together, but feel my interactions with her are too toxic/unhealthy for me.

I'm wanting advice on how should I be approaching this situation? Should I just wait until she comes back around and wants to reconcile (if that even happens), and spend my focus and energy in the meantime focusing on my own healing? Or should I suck it up, and sit in couples therapy sessions with her trying to process this and heal through it together, even though we most likely won't end up together?

THANK YOU!

Welcome to the club that nobody wants to join. Feel free to vent, ask questions and to seek out encouragement. I'd highly recommend taking a look that The Healing Library (http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/faq.asp), especially the FAQ for Betrayed Spouses.

There is a core truth that you need to understand -- infidelity is a commentary on the wayward spouse. It speaks to the fact that they have a character gap that they were trying to fill/numb by pursuing an affair. They wanted "ego kibbles" and were self-centered enough to betray their spouse and go use/manipulate another person into giving them what they wanted.

With that in mind, my suggestions are:

1. Betrayal is a huge emotional trauma that you will need to heal from, so find a good IC to help you see that this wasn't a commentary on your worth. The truth is that you are faithful, important, unique, special and worthwhile. Betrayal often sneaks in an insidious lie to the contrary.

2. Along with the previous point, fire your IC/MC. S/he is clueless.

3. Don't go to MC with your wife anymore. She won't take responsibility for her own self-centeredness and she instead wants to place the blame on a "failed relationship" (e.g. you). That is only going to drive the lie that you are "failed', unimportant, disposable even deeper.

4. You are doing what many of us have -- tried to "fix" the marriage and pursue reconciliation all on our own. It is called the "Pick Me!" dance. It never works. Stop chasing after your wife, detach and gain some clarity on the disrespect that she continues to give you. The "180" in the FAQ for Betrayed Spouses is something that can help you here.

5. Your wife is manipulating you and fencesitting. In short, she is using the separation as a chance to try out her new relationship all while keep you and the benefits you provide around. Don't believe a word she says. Detach and gain some strength.

Thanks Crushed. I really appreciate you taking the time to respond thoughtfully and give me your advice.

I agree that my wife is "fencesitting", and I have been encouraging her this last week that if her decision to file is set, then she needs to go and file. Stop talking about filing and do it if that's what you've chosen. I haven't received any papers yet, though I'm not entirely sure how long it would take from when she files to when I would receive them. I have not reached out to her for over a week, and have no plans to do so. Only quick responses after she reaches out to me for something. I plan on continuing to distance myself from my wife and have ceased chasing after her.

Regarding this counselor, I should mention that this counselor actually seems like a very good counselor. I've seen maybe seven different MFTs throughout my marriage (all but one for MC). He is a "relationship specialist", and seems to be intelligent and pulling for the marriage. His reasoning is that by counseling together, we can better understand each other and reconnect on an emotional level. He acknowledged in our last session that this is on my wife, that I am not at fault for her affair, and that he suspects she has a deep childhood wound(s) that is driving her decision making.

I will look into the "180" (browsed it briefly last week) and the other links there.

Thanks again ... truly appreciate your insight.

short answer = no couples counseling

agree go 180 to detach and frankly I would file like yesterday

longer answer:

You get IC to heal you

IMO she wants to navel gaze so she can rationalize her gender-switch nasty exit wasn't her "fault"... well her shitty behavior of sneaking around and lying, ya know the whole vow-breaking deal, is totally 100% on her and you don't need therapy to call cheating immoral regardless of who is used as the broken mirror

I agree be thankful no children involved

peace as you process and internalize quickly it was not you or anything you did that caused her crappy choices and poor coping in the relationship

Thank you Merida.

She has definitely been operating in a completely self-absorbed mentality for the past 6-8 months since this all began.

I have been coming to terms with the fact that this wasn't about me and that it stems from some deep pain/wounding she's lived with that she never worked through. Your point about this being her problem is spot on ... several counselors have told me this is about her. One went on to even say her reaching out to another woman is suggestive of her having serious mother-love issues (I never mentioned this counselor of my WW's majorly dysfunctional relationship with her mom growing up). So I've come to terms with the fact that this is really about her and not me.

We both have separate appointments with our MC this week, and I plan on continuing with him in IC into the future.

I won't divorce her because of the strong personal convictions I have regarding marriage, so that will need to come from her end. However, I have considered filing for legal separation. Plus, I want her to be the one who has to live with the guilt of all of this and for the decision that she ends up making.

EDIT: But my main dilemma stems from this strong conviction I have. When I committed to this woman, I meant it. And I do feel that she has some deep wound that she's never worked through and healed through. Part of me wants to try to help her heal through it. But the other part of me is the anger with her lack of remorse for what she's done, and her not being committed to me and the marriage despite all of this. I don't want to give up on her, but how can you help someone who doesn't want your help, and who may not even be ready/willing/able to help themselves? I guess more q's for IC.

Thanks.

[This message edited by throwawayabay at 12:43 PM, November 12th (Saturday)]

When I committed to this woman, I meant it. And I do feel that she has some deep wound that she's never worked through and healed through. Part of me wants to try to help her heal through it.

That's all well and good but she wants to divorce you.

This may very well be a sh*t test, i.e. you held her feet to the fire in terms of letting her know how you feel, in this way she gets a modicum of control while getting you to "pay" for your comments/behavior.

Like I said a commitment is well and good, but she cheated, lied now she's filing for divorce. Seems to me you keep on getting the sh*tty end of the stick and yet you're the one wanting to "help" her.

If she's showing no remorse, wants to divorce then there's pretty much no need for couples therapy. You need to take care of yourself, get yourself an IC if you need one, but most of all see a lawyer and know what your rights are to at least prepare yourself should she file.

She's a grown woman and actions have consequences. Time to grab the other end of the stick.

If she's showing no remorse, wants to divorce then there's pretty much no need for couples therapy.

Thanks Tren. I'm very conflicted (as expected I assume), and part of me definitely feels this way.

But the counselor asked me a tough question earlier this week. He said, "You have to ask yourself, do I love this person enough to help HER heal from the deep wounds she (obviously) has, even if in the end we don't end up together?".

Even though my emotions fluctuate between anger/hurt/self-pity and pity/sadness for her and how screwed up she is, I still love and care for her.

To respond to your comment quoted above, I want to pose the following question:

Can I experience healing/growth, in any way at all, by engaging in couples therapy with someone who doesn't seem remorseful? Have any of you done this in the past? If we delve into what happened between us and why (and I can keep a mindset of apathy towards the outcome of our relationship) during the process, can I benefit from it in any way?

And even though she says she wants a divorce, to my knowledge, she hasn't filed yet. She has also stated she is full of self-doubt. She's been saying she is going to file for nearly 5 months now ... still no papers.

Thanks again for your opinion Tren. I'd like to know more of your thoughts.

What is the source of your moral conviction regarding divorce? I'm the same way, due to my Christianity, but with my fWW's sexual infidelity I am free to divorce her if I choose, entirely in keeping with my faith. I'm a "moral compulsion"kind of operator, too, where I well and truly believe if I hold a moral I'm constrained by it, and not just because God said to, but because God said to for a good reason that should be well and truly understood.

I would have divorced my wife, too, if she had not been instantly willing to work towards redeeming herself and recommitting to the marriage. I still will divorce if the things don't happen that need to happen for me to be okay in the M. If your wife is not at all engaged in trying to prove that she is safe for you to be married to her, and is actively demonstrating how little she respects you and how little she regards everything you are and have done, then explain why you would want to put effort into a relationship with her.

Ask yourself if you are okay with being a "plan B" for a cheater. She's stringing you along just for those purposes.

She's already gone,I wouldn't even hold out hope for her coming around. Let go of the outcome, 180, exit the marriage with class and dignity, and if she somehow turns around and sees that the grass isn't greener and realizes what she lost, well, maybe you can give her a chance to date you in the future.

That's what it should be, a chance. The gift of reconciliation is one of the biggest, grandest, most magnanimous gifts that one human can give another, and your WW is treating it like crap.

Eyes wide open, detach, read like crazy. You seem like the analytical type, use it to is full potential. Good luck. Welcome to SI :/

Thanks Mindjob.

This whole thing IS a f*ckin mindjob haha.

Well, it's a tangent, but yeah, my conviction/commitment to my marriage is outside of myself (otherwise I would have been done with it months ago). Right and wrong has always been huge for me, and you nailed it about operating mainly on a moral compulsion type of mode. But for me, it goes beyond that as well. I'm trying to respond to all of this with as much godliness as I can. Even though Biblically I would be justified to divorce her, I have to ask myself what is God's heart in the matter? What has He done for me, despite my wickedness, rebellion, and hatred towards Him? I'm just trying to be as long-suffering and patient as I can throughout the process. And yes, I'm aware that means I will be taken advantage of and treated like crap more than if I just gave up and bailed. But that's the calling I'm trying to live by.

I guess the approach I'm trying to have moving forward from here is that of the father in the prodigal son parable. I'll wait for her as long as I can in the hopes she'll return, but I'll move forward with my life in the mean time. I won't contact her or pursue after her until she is ready to reconcile and return to me with a humble, broken heart. But it isn't easy (as you all know). This mindset I described is just how I've felt most of the time over the past 5-6 months. Sometimes I have anger and want to say f*ck off and move on. Other days I feel so grieved and full of sadness by the confused, dysfunctional path she's choosing. I'm a mess.

But I agree with everything you've said Mind. I am most likely her "Plan B", she is stringing me along, and she has so far thrown the forgiveness and patience I've shown her back in my face. She doesn't deserve another chance ... but I guess I never have deserved that either.

Thanks for your input. I have been reading like crazy :) Any good recommendations? Always open for more.

Thanks again ...

This whole thing IS a f*ckin mindjob haha.

RIGHT?!

For reading materials, you might pick up "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass. I spent an inordinate amount of time reading the Healing Library, and there's a book selection there, as well. Whatever you can apply to your specific situation, really.

There's an "I can relate" thread here where you might get some specific advice on same-sex infidelity that might have situational bearing.

I hope your faith doesn't lead you to soak up abuse. I don't think it is, since you aren't hesitant to call your WW out on her selfishness, though. I know what it means to feel gratitude for the forgiveness imparted upon your own unworthy soul, but in my case it left me enduring things that I really didn't have to. It made me very resilient, but has left some pretty big mindjobby scars.

No matter how much she tries to rewrite your marital history to ameliorate her own guilt, truth is always your best friend. Any problems in the marriage are an opportunity to work on the marriage, not duck out in violation of vows. There is no excuse for infidelity, none.

You are the prize, not her. She is the betrayer, not you. Her regret and guilt are not remorse. Sounds like she really isn't owning her shit, which is something that has to happen for any chance at reconciliation. She's handed you an enormous injustice, and it doesn't sound like she is doing the decent thing on your account.

2 to 5 years to heal. Sorry you're part of this unfortunate club.

Thanks again.

I'll definitely check out "Not Just Friends", as well as the "I can relate" thread. And again, I agree with all of your points in that last post.

Thanks again. Hoping it isn't 2-5 years, but only time will tell.

I won't divorce her because of the strong personal convictions I have regarding marriage, so that will need to come from her end. However, I have considered filing for legal separation. Plus, I want her to be the one who has to live with the guilt of all of this and for the decision that she ends up making.

Your actions say she can do as she pleases and you'll be there no matter what instead of controlling your own life you're letting her have contol of it.

Sounds like codependency.

You should read "No More Mr Nice Guy" free PDF download

[This message edited by Marc878 at 5:46 PM, November 12th (Saturday)]

Where can I find the article, Marc878? I'd really like to read it.

I've thought a little about co-dependency, and definitely think it's been a factor in my approach to the affair, separation, and reconciliation so far. But I don't think my decision not to file for divorce means I'm codependent. Am I wrong about this? Is it possible for me to become more dependent and focused on myself while still letting her make a decision on the marriage (as I stated, I am still considering legal separation)?

Thanks for your reply. Let me know about the article!

Can I experience healing/growth, in any way at all, by engaging in couples therapy with someone who doesn't seem remorseful?

Nope. Even though she is dealing with an old wound, you're currently bleeding out from the wound she's dealt you. How would it be at all productive for you to ignore it and focus on her? It wouldn't and though your MC probably comes from a good place, he's not being at all considerate to your needs and pain here.

I haven't gone this way myself but I have seen others do it and generally the consensus is that it's a waste of time, money, and it's detrimental to the BS. You can already feel its toxic affects on you. Do you really think it's a good idea to ignore that and open yourself up to more hurt?

And even though she says she wants a divorce, to my knowledge, she hasn't filed yet. She has also stated she is full of self-doubt. She's been saying she is going to file for nearly 5 months now ... still no papers.

What if she never files and you keep waiting? What if 5 years from now, she suddenly files because she's engaged to the OW and now because the M has been going on for 10 years, you're on the hook for alimony? Would that be okay with you? You don't have to file now but at least see a lawyer and get a good idea of what you have to lose by waiting for her to file first. See if separation is a good choice for you and protects you from something like this. This has nothing to do with your morals and everything to do with protecting and taking care of yourself. You don't think God would want you to reward her sins in the end because of the law of man, do you?

Even if you get a D and she comes back one day wanting R, there's nothing to stop you from marrying her again if it's in the cards. But don't set yourself on fire just to keep someone else warm. I agree with Marc. You could really benefit from searching for "No More Mr Nice Guy free pdf" on Google. It's easily find able with a quick Google search and has helped many men in your position here.

throwawayabay

You have a PM

Good luck

throwawayabay

Since you and your WW have no kids and you're onyl 30yrs old.

How long are you willing to wait for your WW to choose you and it make it better for you?

She still cheated on you. There's no excuse or justification for that one.

Are you willing to live with that? It's your choice now. Do what you think---listen to that gut feeling you have going on right now.

whg

[This message edited by WarehouseGuy at 5:47 PM, November 12th (Saturday)]

I haven't received any papers yet, though I'm not entirely sure how long it would take from when she files to when I would receive them.

Go see an attorney and file first. Knock her off the fence.

Just because you've filed doesn't mean you have to follow through. But it'll certainly refocus her on exactly what she wants.

Thanks all for the advice.

A few points:

I'll be honest, after glazing over the article, I don't feel like I'm a "Nice Guy" at all. Based off the author's descriptions of Nice Guys and Integrated Males, I feel I possess characteristics of both, but definitely more like an IM than a NG. Regardless, I see the author's point regarding having a NG approach to life and relationships, and agree that behaving like a NG isn't healthy for anyone (man or woman). Thanks for pointing me to the article Marc.

Nope. Even though she is dealing with an old wound, you're currently bleeding out from the wound she's dealt you. How would it be at all productive for you to ignore it and focus on her? It wouldn't and though your MC probably comes from a good place, he's not being at all considerate to your needs and pain here.

I haven't gone this way myself but I have seen others do it and generally the consensus is that it's a waste of time, money, and it's detrimental to the BS. You can already feel its toxic affects on you. Do you really think it's a good idea to ignore that and open yourself up to more hurt?

Nekonamida, thanks for your opinion. I agree that it wouldn't be productive for me to ignore/suppress the pain/wounds I have and focus on her. I guess I was approaching it from the perspective of her and I focusing on us, but I know at the moment, there really isn't any us, so I need to keep trying to reframe my way of thinking.

As far as how long I'm willing to wait for her to decide, that's a good question. I'm really just trying to focus on myself, my healing, and coping until the next wave hits (whatever that may be). I honestly don't believe my wife would drag this out, but I'm sure every guy/gal whose experience dragged on and on felt that way too. Which is why I'm considering legal separation to protect myself financially. Great analogy on setting myself on fire to keep her warm though ... I'm sure I'll be repeating that.

Summerdowling, see above.

WarehouseGuy, I agree ... there is never justification for cheating. Our counselor acknowledged this with me a few days ago. She has the deep problem/character issue here ... not me. I could live with her with what she's done, but only if she becomes truly remorseful/repentant and broken over it.

Setecastronomy, I hear you. I think filing for legal separation and her getting papers at work might accomplish the same thing. And her refocusing and really deciding what she wants sooner as opposed to later would be best for everyone.

Thank you all. Appreciate all the input.

"Codependency is an emotional and behavioral condition that affects an individual's ability to have a healthy, mutually satisfying relationship. It is also known as “relationship addiction” because people with codependency often form or maintain relationships that are one-sided, emotionally destructive and/or abusive."

He said, "You have to ask yourself, do I love this person enough to help HER heal

What your counsellor is suggesting is codependency. He is suggesting that you self-sacrifice, allow ongoing abuse all out of a sense of responsibility to help her. That is emotional and psychological suicide and it is enabling her ongoing fencesitting.

It's not your job to "fix" her. It's hers. Only she can choose to change. Your counselor should know that.

I'm trying to respond to all of this with as much godliness as I can.

That is an excellent goal. Pursue it. Not only in this situation, but through all of life.

However, be very careful with what you believe as it can lead you astray. For example...

1.Putting others ahead of myself instead of loving them as myself (a misinterpretation of Phil. 2:3) ends up skewing one's self worth and elevates others improperly.

2. Selectively believing that patience and kindness are the only attributes of God to emulate omits many other passages. When faced with infidelity (i.e. idolatry), God did become angry and allowed for natural consequences to occur.

3. Forgiveness is different than trust. The parable of the King and the debtor is very interesting here.

4. While it is vital to recognize the grace we've been given, it is also important to see that we came to a point of being willing to accept it. Relationship isn't possible with someone who insists on being self-centered.

It is well worth your time and effort to make certain that you are pursuing godliness and that you have God, yourself and others in the appropriate balance.