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Just Found Out :
2 months: needs, stalemates, and "therapeutic separation?"

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 unspecified (original poster member #65455) posted at 9:10 PM on Sunday, August 26th, 2018

I've posted previously regarding my wife's affair which I discovered two months ago. In summary, married 12 years, two kids, long term EA+PA of 4.5 years with a married friend of ours/father of my son's best friend, yaddayaddayadda.

So much reflection since then. I have moved past expecting to ever hear than she felt remorse while her affair was ongoing. I've accepted that it had real value to her. I don't think she's a monster. I respect her more now than in the first few weeks after D-day. I think for the most part I am not accepting her blame, while still acknowledging and exploring my own remorse for my own factors that made her affair more likely in our marriage. I'm mourning the marriage while respecting her own pain.

I've been prompted to post after reading a similar scenario from another user here who was only three days post D-day but was struggling with how to interact with their WW. I, like that user, feel I have a tremendous amount of personal work to do. I feel I need some emotional distance do to the work, and that most of the work involves working on myself as an independent individual that doesn't "need" her to be happy. That independent version of myself is the only person I can see agreeing authentically and wholeheartedly to "remarry" her (or anyone) at this stage. I really feel this is the most important work of my life right now, both for me and for my kids' sake. If I can be vaguely thankful for anything in this mess, it's having the opportunity to do this work now, and not in ten or twenty years.

Unfortunately, her needs are diametrically opposed to mine: she needs and expects some degree of affection on a daily basis from me to "demonstrate that I'm still committed to rebuilding our marriage." "Committed" means whatever it takes to make her think I'm committed to rebuilding the marriage and might include occasional hand-holding, ring-wearing, etc. I am simply not committed to marriage yet and can't meet those needs right now. I know this hits an exposed nerve for her, because her justification for the affair centres on my emotional unavailability over the last 5 years, which we have agreed was a symptom of burnout from my demanding career at the time. Our most explosive argument yet took place yesterday, when she called me a "selfish prick" for focussing on myself here, screaming that this is what I "always did throughout our entire marriage" and that it's proof I'm not good for her.

But my wife has always had a way of making me think my own thoughts and intuitions have gone awry, and this feels like no exception. I honestly do not feel committed to the marriage, in spite of all we built together. That's not the same as declining to do some serious relationship work, i.e. to make the best possible relationship (friends?) going forward in light of the fact that we share two children; but she wants a commitment to marriage reconciliation, pronto. I can't, and won't make the decision to stay married to her today, because I simply don't know if I want to be married to her again. Don't really even know who she is.

You won't be surprised to hear our MC (x 2 sessions) hasn't exactly helped this. Session 2 jumped right to defining forgiveness as something I give to myself, the trauma as entirely in my head ultimately, etc. I actually like him and his style, but his timing was poor. WW seems to have heard this as "forgiveness is a decision" (true enough) and assumes I can make this decision now or soon. She sees my reluctance to do so as a sign that I don't value our marriage and probably never loved her in the first place. Again, it's a pressure point for her because she says she has felt that I've been only minimally committed to the marriage for years already, i.e. this is just more of the same shit from me. (I know, the irony alarm is blaring, but I'm done with the tit-for-tat with her and I know she's in pain too.)

Because I haven't found the emotional distance I've needed in the past two months, I've reached the point where I think the only way for me to move forward and get anywhere - even to some potential reconciliation - is to physically move out of our home and lay out a shared custody situation for our kids for some indefinite period of time. I don't think this will be weeks, more like months to a year. (Before people say "make her move out!", I don't want to keep the house to myself; they were together numerous times in the home, there is some tangential involvement of various neighbours who were aware of the situation or who were also hitting on my wife without much resistance, etc - that might be a post for another day.) I don't want D today, and I suppose on some level I hope this does help me move towards the holy grail of forgiveness (i.e. canceling the debt I currently feel she owes me which I really don't want to carry around for long). But it's obviously also a step potentially towards divorce in the long run. It also means real changes and trauma for the kids, which is a terrible thing to have to accept as necessary. (I wish she could see that as a sign of how seriously I need this, instead of as a sign that I don't value our family and its stability.)

So this led to an unexpected turn of events last night and the punch line of this post. She told me that if I'm not actively committed to repairing our marriage now or in the very near future, she doesn't think she can wait and is "worried" she'll find someone else in the meantime. She's not talking years from now; she's talking imminently. I told her I respect that need, cannot meet it at the moment, and wonder if she should reflect on why she can't be alone for a few months of her life, especially if she's as devoted to me as she claims she always has been. I won't stand in her way at this stage.

Part of me wonders if her rush towards reconciliation serves as a bit of a veneer right now, ego-instinct, stressed nearly to its breaking point. She might also ultimately be happier if the marriage ended, and might acknowledge this on some level that she's trying not to explore. She could be burying those thoughts because of fear, pain and shame. After all, in the past, she was miserable, but didn't leave me; she cheated instead. Now, is it easier for her to express remorse and pledge devotion while watching me stumble through ending the marriage and shouldering the inevitable guilt? I don't want to hurt her. I want what's best for the kids, for me, and for her. I just don't know what that is.

After 4.5 years of fairly impressive lies, then deleting the trail of messages I found, and then eight weeks of significant blaming for her affair, her "shape up or ship out" ultimatum makes me feel like I'm living in some bizarro carnival world.

At two months post D-day of an affair of this scale, is it unreasonable to be firmly and intentionally "on the fence" between R & D? And has anyone had any experience with physical distance/separation for therapeutic purposes? I don't see that topic come up much on here.

"The best revenge is not to be like that."

posts: 339   ·   registered: Jul. 14th, 2018
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Cooley2here ( member #62939) posted at 9:50 PM on Sunday, August 26th, 2018

You write in a very rational manner and I assume this is how you live your life. The problem with infidelity is that it is intense trauma. You can’t rationalize it away.

Your wife cheated. She lied to you and now wants to blame you. The hurt part of you wants this to be fixed ASAP. The rational part recognizes it can’t.

She is threatening you with finding another man if you move out. Not only is that counter productive is reeks of panic. She sounds like she is lashing out from abject fear.

You have to give yourself space to grieve and to breath. If moving out helps you do this then do it.

If you are leaving to hurt her it might backfire.

What do you need? How can you meets those needs best? Can you ever forgive her? Can you move on to divorce if the separation calls for it?

Lots of thinks to think about before doing anything you will regret.

When things go wrong, don’t go with them. Elvis

posts: 4896   ·   registered: Mar. 5th, 2018   ·   location: US
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babbu ( member #48847) posted at 10:34 PM on Sunday, August 26th, 2018

She messed up and is trying to dictate the timeline. That's rich.

posts: 268   ·   registered: Aug. 6th, 2015
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nekonamida ( member #42956) posted at 11:07 PM on Sunday, August 26th, 2018

Unspecified, it sounds like your WW is also implying that she will cheat again if you're not "committed" and "available" (i.e. rugsweeping and kissing her ass enough) that she will cheat again too. Why in the world would you sign up for that? Why sign up for a separation where she cheats either? The worst thing when it comes to infidelity isn't divorce. It's being retraumatized over and over again because your WS keeps cheating and triggering you with unsafe behaviors.

See a lawyer and move out. End MC immediately because your counselor isn't the least bit qualified to handle infidelity and the trauma it causes. Do what's best for you and if she can't take it, move on and heal without her.

[This message edited by nekonamida at 5:07 PM, August 26th (Sunday)]

posts: 5232   ·   registered: Mar. 31st, 2014   ·   location: United States
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Washashore ( member #55301) posted at 11:23 PM on Sunday, August 26th, 2018

Unspecified,

I’m sorry you are here. I’m also sorry to hear that you are accepting her blameshifting, her justifications, and her marriage rewrite. She cheated. For years. Doesn’t regret it. You seem to have accepted that she had cause. Did she ever come to you and say, “I’m going to go have an affair if you don’t meet my unmet and unvoiced needs?” No, you didnt.

Nothing you did caused her to cheat. Nothing. What she is doing is typical. Delete the affair record, rewrite the marriage, go to MC and “work on the marriage.” This is typicall, as is the MC response.

Some therapists don’t know how to deal with infidelity. They see it as a symptom of problems in a marriage, rather than a nuclear bomb that has destroyed it.

Forgiveness is not something you can offer right now. She is not a safe partner if she still blameshifta and successfully gaslights you. She has you convinced it was your fault. Do you see that? You haven’t DNA’d Your kids, right? The reason you would do this is not because the kids aren’t yours, it’s to make sure your wife was. She has done nothing to take responsibility for threatening their wellbeing.

You said that you have given up ever thinking that you will receive an expression of remorse for when the affair was ongoing. That is entitled, wayward, borderline narcissistic thinking on her part. “She got what she needed”.. think about exactly what she got from the OM and how she got it. Are you willing to stay with someone who hurt you this way and isn’t sorry?

I am a Baptist minister and always believe reconciliation is the goal. But your wife wants what she wants and she will get it. I have a sister who stepped out, was caught, and blameshiftrd on her husband just like this. They went to MC, and it failed. He couldn’t get over the affair because the MC wanted to work on the marriage. Her husband was grieving the betrayal and that can take years. She started an EA with someone else while they were in MC, divorced hubby number one and went off with hubby number two. She wasnt willing to do the work and no professional made her see that she should. The process you are in, getting over infidelity, takes two to five years. It’s not a race to meet her needs.

At the very least find an MC that has experience in dealing with infidelity, but for your own sake get into individual counseling, practice the 180, because you can’t meet her needs. No one can. It’s not about you. It’s about her.

Finally, Have you told the OBS? Don’t you think she deserves to know that her life includes a liar and her friend betrayed her?

You are in my thoughts. Keep writing. You have friends here that care about you and want to help you move forward out of infidelity. With or without her.

Kyrie eleison. (The Lord be with you)

[This message edited by Washashore at 5:26 PM, August 26th (Sunday)]

posts: 93   ·   registered: Sep. 23rd, 2016   ·   location: Iowa
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sam59 ( member #42612) posted at 11:31 PM on Sunday, August 26th, 2018

Your wife seems very bold.

Are you sure she is not still in contact with her AP ?

Have you ever informed AP's wife of the affair ?

posts: 146   ·   registered: Feb. 28th, 2014   ·   location: sam59
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MickeyBill2016 ( member #56459) posted at 11:33 PM on Sunday, August 26th, 2018

Seems like you don;t have much of a choice. If you separate for a "short" there's a 100% chance she will be with another man either out of a sad can't be alone mindset or to get back at you for not following her dictates.

Or if you stay, once she has you back home where she wants you, there's a 95% chance she will decide you are not trying enough and return to her cheater mindset.

Either way you are stuck with a cheater. Look into divorce, I would.

ETA- While she was in her 5 year affair she says that you were not available, but she was not either because she was with the OM.

[This message edited by MickeyBill2016 at 12:50 AM, August 27th (Monday)]

9 years married.
13 years divorced.

posts: 1274   ·   registered: Dec. 17th, 2016   ·   location: West of the 405 North of the Mexican border
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Marz ( member #60895) posted at 11:40 PM on Sunday, August 26th, 2018

She told me that if I'm not actively committed to repairing our marriage now or in the very near future, she doesn't think she can wait and is "worried" she'll find someone else in the meantime. She's not talking years from now; she's talking imminently. I told her I respect that need, cannot meet it at the moment, and wonder if she should reflect on why she can't be alone for a few months of her life, especially if she's as devoted to me as she claims she always has been. I won't stand in her way at this stage.

Good god man!!!! She cheats and you're supposed to do all the work?

Jumping into MC upfront is a real bad idea. Typical "save the marriage at all cost" bullshit.

You are going to get your head handed to you on a platter with this type of approach.

Better wake up and cut out the Mr Nice Guy approach.

Read up on consequences. Your wayward wife needs a good dose and your expectation of owning her own shit.

Unless you stand up for yourself you are going to wallow needlessly longer in this than you should.

[This message edited by Marz at 5:41 PM, August 26th (Sunday)]

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BearlyBreathing ( member #55075) posted at 12:40 AM on Monday, August 27th, 2018

Hi Unspecified

You have received lots of great responses, but I want to add that there is a legal concern if you move out in regards to your kids.

Please see a lawyer and make sure whatever you do is the best thing for your kids. It might mean you ask her to leave. Or you put a legal separation in to place. You just want to be sure she can’t say you deserted the family or anything negative like that. Crazy, right? But she is not who you always thought, so PLEASE protect yourself and your kids.

Also, please tell OBS.

I am sorry she is being so selfish. Sending you strength.

-BB

Me: BS 57 (49 on d-day)Him: *who cares ;-) *. D-Day 8/15/2016 LTA. Kinda liking my new life :-)

**horrible typist, lots of edits to correct. :-/ **

posts: 6840   ·   registered: Sep. 10th, 2016   ·   location: Northern CA
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GotTheTshirtToo ( member #51377) posted at 12:45 AM on Monday, August 27th, 2018

BS ONLY

[This message edited by SI Staff at 7:49 PM, May 26th (Sunday)]

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Gunnut ( member #63221) posted at 12:54 AM on Monday, August 27th, 2018

She is certainly not R material at the moment. It seems like she is threatening you with “Get with the program, or else.” and that’s totally backwards. It should be her kissing your ass and doing the work to save the marriage now. She’s totally blaming you for her affair and even if she’s ended the affair, that is still wayward behavior; shit she’s even blaming you for her next affair before it’s even happened. You need to read up on the 180 in the healing library.

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OrdinaryDude ( member #55676) posted at 2:13 AM on Monday, August 27th, 2018

I think your WW (and you to some extent) need to understand the vast difference between valuing a healthy marriage and trying to justify valuing one ruined by infidelity.

She is in no position to dictate terms in anything.

If she isn’t begging you to stay in the marriage, is she really worth it?

I was young and dumb and stayed with a cheater.

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WornDown ( member #37977) posted at 2:18 AM on Monday, August 27th, 2018

Yes, you are living in Bizzaro World.

It's called gas-lighting. It's where the perp makes the victim fell like they are going crazy - that what's real, isn't; that what isn't real, is. Google the term - it's a legit manipulation tactic described by psychologists.

What she's also doing is pulling some emotional blackmail on you. Summarizing what your post is: Rugsweep this, or I'm going to find a new guy to fuck.

Both behaviors mean that she is nowhere near being a safe partner to be in a relationship with, let alone a candidate for R.

The 180 is designed for people like you to focus on you, and sort out reality from fiction. With some WSs they are so manipulative (like yours), it is very difficult to do so without physically separating.

I was in a similar situation as you. It took me getting a job 5 hours away to really see how far she had messed with my mind, and that the constant drama/crises she created were not normal, and that I didn't have that when I wasn't with her

Before you separate though (if you choose that route), consult with an attorney - there are some legal ramifications of you move out in some jurisdictions.

ETA: drop the MC. Complete waste of time at this point. IC for both of you should be the order of the day

[This message edited by WornDown at 8:19 PM, August 26th (Sunday)]

Me: BH (50); exW (49): Way too many guys to count. Three kids (D, D, S, all >20)Together 25 years, married 18; Divorced (July 2015)

I divorced a narc. Separate everything. NC as much as humanly possible and absolutely no phone calls. - Ch

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OrdinaryDude ( member #55676) posted at 2:26 AM on Monday, August 27th, 2018

I agree, get out of MC now!

Most MCs are inept dealing with infidelity, they only want to save the M, not help heal the root cause of the infidelity, which BTW, lies completely within her, not you.

I was young and dumb and stayed with a cheater.

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Butforthegrace ( member #63264) posted at 2:56 AM on Monday, August 27th, 2018

Your WW is full of shit.

"The wicked man flees when no one chases."

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 unspecified (original poster member #65455) posted at 3:09 AM on Monday, August 27th, 2018

So many bang on responses. Thank you all.

Yes, I'll be getting paternity testing, largely to verify her story and for any future child support issues. Affair started within months of my son's birth, if her version is to be believed. Too close for comfort.

Absolutely true about the excessive rationalizing I'm doing, the gas-lighting she's doing (though I don't think her intentions are malicious, just self-serving), her panic and so forth. No, she has not exactly begged me to stay in the marriage, and yes that does strike me as a red flag. Don't get me wrong - she seems to have gone NC and tells me it's tearing her apart to think of losing me because of what she's done. But those things would be easy to say in this situation. I can say the same things but they don't mean commitment. Honestly, her behaviour is the reason I feel less likely to succeed in R now than I did a week after D-day.

Yes, I've told OBS. I gave the OM the chance first and then checked in with OBS a few days later to be certain. It was unpleasant and I took so much flak for it, but OBS is a friend of mine too so it really wasn't up for debate.

And you're right, I will speak with a lawyer before moving out. My understanding in these parts is that if I maintain 50/50 custody and document things the act of moving out shouldn't jeopardize my parental rights, but obviously I need to confirm that. As for the house, I'm prepared to lose it to her, but doubt she'd want to keep it if we separate permanently as there's probably no way she could afford it in the case of a divorce, even with support payments. But again, solid advice and I'll definitely get legal opinions first.

Thanks everyone.

[This message edited by unspecified at 9:13 PM, August 26th (Sunday)]

"The best revenge is not to be like that."

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VinST ( member #61493) posted at 3:37 AM on Monday, August 27th, 2018

Your first post sounded pretty lame.. I mean she cheated and "you" had to do the work? "you" had to show her how committed you were? (to think you considered these options!!!)

Glad you grew a pair and started acting like a man. Time to take back control of your life and get rid of this excuse of a wife. The world is big. There are other women out there that value trust and commitment and strangely enough find it attractive.

I found that out to. You will see.. the tables always turn when you start being free of her. Don't show weakness... indifference is the best attitude and move on.

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Marz ( member #60895) posted at 3:52 AM on Monday, August 27th, 2018

Yes, I've told OBS. I gave the OM the chance first and then checked in with OBS a few days later to be certain. It was unpleasant and I took so much flak for it, but OBS is a friend of mine too so it really wasn't up for debate.

Nice job. You are much stronger and more aware than what your first post indicated.

Talk or words from her at this time mean very little. You are dealing with someone who has lived a lie long term. Apparently she's very good at it.

Clarity comes with time. Make sure you get some alone time to think.

Under the circumstances a vacation or separation maybe best for you. Just make sure you have the proper paperwork first. A good attorney is imperative at this time no matter which way you choose.

[This message edited by Marz at 9:53 PM, August 26th (Sunday)]

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Cooley2here ( member #62939) posted at 3:53 AM on Monday, August 27th, 2018

Telling someone in this kind of pain to “ grow a pair” is counter productive. He is trying his best to do this the smart way. If he has a lawyer who can advise him I sure hope he doesn’t tell him to grow a pair.

Unspecified, if you can, make a list of finances, child care, if needed, insurance, etc. Marriage quickly binds us up in a thousand strings. It takes time to unravel them. Don’t rush.

Do get some therapy to help you grieve

And lawyer up ASAP.

When things go wrong, don’t go with them. Elvis

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Marz ( member #60895) posted at 3:56 AM on Monday, August 27th, 2018

After what you've just discovered and are going through everything should be on your timeline and no one else's.

Ditch the MC. Swap that for IC. It would be better for you at this time.

Ignore any ultimatums. Your are the prize here man.

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