SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

The concept that the marriage that my H and I had before Dday is dead is something I really struggle with. It includes all of our major life events. Graduations, first home purchase, having all of our kids. How do I seperate the life events from the marriage as a whole? The bond and the connection we have to one another was strengthened by all of these things. The history that we have is so deeply ingrained in who I am as a person that those memories are still genuine even if we ended up D. So what things get to stay alive?

I was very codependent with my H in most of this time but in a weird way it worked for us. I needed him and we pulled ourselves out of bad childhoods and even worse decisions. He is my best friend. Even now if he/we decided to seperate I still feel like we would be very supportive of one another. He’s a genuinely kind and caring person but I think we both know that we would be okay apart. Heartbroken but very understanding and capable. His capabilities are not seen as a negative to me anymore either. I’m proud of him in how he’s come back into his own self. He’s more of the man that I fell in love with now than he’s been in a while.

So what does it really mean to grieve the old marriage? Is it just certain aspects of it(trust, blind faith etc)? I find myself wanting to hold onto everything but I know that’s not healthy in the long run. What’s been helpful to others and where did you start?

I think that the answer will vary from person to person here.

For us, the period of our marriage during my affair is dead. We have wiped it from existence. The marriage itself is another story. I don’t think that the marriage in its entirety is dead, more so the innocence of it. There were certain things that my husband could believe about it without question that are no longer the case and never will be. It doesn’t mean that it can’t be good, but that innocence is lost, similar to the idea of finding out that Santa Claus isn’t real. Christmas still feels warm and fuzzy, but some of the magic is gone.

I don’t think I had to grieve my marriage as much as my husband. For me it was about examining it and trying to figure out what I had rewritten and what I had not. I need to gain a clear perspective of what my marriage was and what my marriage wasn’t.

Together we had to decide what aspects of our marriage were no longer going to be tolerable. For example, he hated to see me cry so he would drop a lot of important issues to try to make me happy. That dynamic would no longer work in our new marriage. He would also let things go because he would give me the benefit of the doubt. That’s also no longer the case. We take things head on now and nip them in the bud, which honestly should have been happening all along.

The two of you need to decide what will work for you. It will depend on what your marriage looked like prior and what you want it to be today.

There's a mod-approved podcast where 2 therapists discuss the trauma to a BS. In that podcast, Ms. Breeker (specializes in sex addiction/infidelity) says she advises that both the BS and the WS actually make a list of what was lost in the M due to the A. I'd say that's a good place to start - i.e., what specifically has been lost - eg trust, innocence, dreams of future, feeling special, etc. (last week WH and I had a talk about losing the dream of sitting on our porch in the twilight years and being able to look back at our lives together with fondness and joy. That dreams now dead. We may R, and we may sit on the porch together, but it is pretty unlikely - probably for him too- that anything prior to reconciliation [assuming we even make it there] will be viewed with joy or fondness.... loss of that dream -and soooo many others -is our new reality, and it must be grieved IMHO.). If interested in the podcasts/learning about what WS' may experience, google "the addicted mind Marnie Breeker".

The bond and the connection we have to one another was strengthened by all of these things. The history that we have is so deeply ingrained in who I am as a person that those memories are still genuine even if we ended up D

How does your BS feel about that? How much of those life events took place during the A? Eggshelz makes a good point - that it's different for everyone. I suspect for most BS', the period leading up to and including the active A is pretty well smashed, including the memories. Some BS talk about claiming those moments/memories, the gist being I won't let my WS and their lies and secrets take away that moment of joy. But most report they see the WS during those moments as basically absent (bc during the A/after A and before dday the event experienced by the BS was not based in reality WRT the M or the WS due to WS deceit). My point is that many BS do not see those memories as anything remotely close to "genuine" or strengthening the connection sometimes its just WRT the M or the WS, but for others, the entire memory is not genuine, void of authenticity or joy.

In my situation (I'm a BS), the entire M is dead (and all memories tainted) - bc the entire M has been clouded by WH's secrets - that started before our M and LONG before the PA began.

Personally (and I felt this on dday long before I knew the extent of my WH's secrets), the entire M is dead - just as it would be if we had divorced before dday. I don't think my WH sees it the same way. Bottom line for me is the secrets were a dealbreaker the A was a dealbreaker - the M is dead. So the question is if we ultimately decide to try and make a new M. You and your BS may have different views about this.....

Hi Rogue,

I feel a lot like Walkingoneggshelz.

The 20+ years we had together prior to the affair aren't erased. The memories and love we shared are part of the reason that we desired to try and stay together and work through this. But, the marriage is no longer pristine - it's tarnished. It's not innocent. There will no longer be the unequivocal trust that once existed, and my H will always view me differently than he did prior to my betrayal of him.

I grieve that I took that from both of us, and you have been likely grieving that too.

Also, like WOE said - the marriage will be different in other ways. There will be new boundaries, new skills that we have acquired, everything is re-negotiated and examined. Both people have to grow and change to allow the healing to occur, so while we aren't going to be two completely different people, we will forever be changed and our dynamics will be different.

Some of the waywards come on and talk about not liking the inequality they experience now in the marriage, that things aren't balanced the way they once were. That they can't speak up as much as before. Those things are true. But, on the flipside of that, I know that I have healed more than my husband because I am not the one who was betrayed. I get to feel peace because my H didn't break my trust. Do I live with the remorse of what I did? Yes. But, it's nothing compared to the mental adjustments he is having to make. There are just so many factors here for the BS that I agree with WOE, their grief is longer and deeper and they feel the loss of the old marriage more profoundly.

I feel it's best as a wayward to try and carry the optimism for the couple because we aren't carrying as much as the BS. So, I stay hopeful that the metamorphosis of our marriage will have some positive outcomes and that together we will be able to celebrate that new relationship. Feel excited again and happy in it. Time will tell. I just keep that's what I am shooting for in mind and align myself with that picture as much as possible.

A marriage is a secret. A secret shared between 2 people. Hopes, dreams, fears, intimacy, children, struggles, triumphs, failures... One giant secret. We allow people brief glimpses around the edges only.

A betrayal turns the secret public. The betrayer shares their marital secret and even starts another secret with another person not their spouse. The betrayed sees the secret no more. It's a shattering of all the bonds held by 2 people within their secret.

The secret that once was never returns. If one is lucky, a form of a new secret begins. But it is important to note it doesn't renew the original secret. All that was about it has faded away. The new one is therefore incomplete and tentative.

So grieve for the secret once shared between 2 people, never to be shared again. For what once was and will never be again.

All you can do is to try and start that new secret and create new bonds. But the difficulties are obvious with the forever loss of genuine faith and trust. I think the word for a reconciled marriage is not 'secret' but 'cope'. It becomes a marriage of coping.

[This message edited by thatbpguy at 8:32 AM, September 11th (Tuesday)]

Each spouse in the broken marriage has to grieve different things. As HikingOut noted, your H will always view you differently than he did before, and there will never be the sense of trust between you that existed before. Those are things you need to grieve, and it starts with accepting the reality that those pieces of your M will not come back. You can't unring that bell.

Your H is grieving not just the M, but also the loss of trust he has in his own self and his own perception. For all of those life events in your past that you view with joy and happiness, he will view with suspicion and sadness. Even happy events in the past come with doubts like "why did she throw away such happy times for a tryst with OM?" and events that happened before or after the A, he will wonder who and what you were really thinking about, or if there is more he doesn't know about that time.

Remember, you have the whole puzzle. He has a few pieces.

An important part of healing the M will be acknowledging that. Your H will always feel differently about your M now, and you probably need to grieve that loss.

Remember, you have the whole puzzle. He has a few pieces.

An important part of healing the M will be acknowledging that. Your H will always feel differently about your M now, and you probably need to grieve that loss.

It is really interesting how spouses view their marriages during or after R.

Rougue,

WOE's quotes:

Together we had to decide what aspects of our marriage were no longer going to be tolerable.

and

That dynamic would no longer work in our new marriage.

are pretty spot on with how I think of the "death of the marriage". Also, godheals had a reply on a post about letting go of resentments from the old marriage that I felt is applicable to building a new marriage. And

sisoon

(I think?) has posted a few times about looking forward rather than back on the old marriage.

Initially, I did do some grieving over losing the specialness of the marriage. Talking to my husband, I don't think he felt that way about our marriage previously. Oddly, he probably does now.

You know those 5 stages of grief: denial, bargaining, anger, depression, and acceptance. I see a lot of WS, including my own, cycle through those stages. When I see one of those posts that start like hikingout described

Some of the waywards come on and talk about not liking the inequality they experience now in the marriage, that things aren't balanced the way they once were.

my first thought is that the WS is in denial or bargaining over the death of the marriage. There is a WS posting a lot right now who seems to be in a denial or bargaining stage.

For me in my situation . . .

Yes you have rebuild and renegotiate a new M. Things that worked are kept. Things that did not work need to be addressed/changed. It has to be a M that looks forward more than it looks backwards.

However the shared history has to be taken in it's entirety. The good, the bad and the ugly. Our M history is not something that will be forgotten. It has to be something that can be remembered and discussed even if it is painful.

As you both heal you learn better ways to express feelings. Remorse and grace help one heck of a lot. JMHO there is no way to R without the BS offering grace and the WS being very appreciative of it. You look at times during the A, even those not related to the A directly, and you bring remorse and he brings grace. You discuss things and talk them through.

You don't forget about the past. You learn to embrace it and learn from it. If my W remembers something during that time. It is OK. We talk about it and I let her express her remorse. I accept that remorse and show her grace. She in turn feels validated and appreciates that fact. We move on.

The thing about R that I find surprising is that it takes a continous effort on both our parts to be transparent in thoughts in actions.

Seven years out. When I bring up the A (not often BTW) I don't say things born out of a place of pain anymore. I've processed it. If I do feel a twinge it is usually me second guessing my choice to R. I need my W help to remind me that it was the right choice in some of those times. Further when my W talks about her A she speaks to it as a time in her life that she feels shame or guilt/remorse. She needs me to remind her that she is not that person anymore and she has worked very hard to get where she is today.

It helps us give meaning to that time in our lives. We wouldn't want to do that again, but we can't change that. We learned a lot about each other and ourselves. We can't be proud of that without remembering the catalyst for those changes. It isn't as painful anymore. It isn't all sunshine and rainbows either. It is real and it is honest.

We learned to lean on each other and we are better together. We are more than the some of our parts and memories.

It was interesting to see a WS post this question. I honestly never considered it would be a WS issue as they are the destroyers of their marriage by their own choices. Perhaps I'm not far enough from DDay to understand this question from a WS?

I know that recently (and well many times actually) I started sobbing after sex. I didn't plan to cry, the sex was great. We felt close. But all of the sudden, at the end of that time, I felt the incredible pain and weight of the fact that that part of my marriage was gone. That special part of being each other's one and onlys. The grief from that is crushing to the soul, heavier than any burden I've ever been asked to bear. To know that I have to forever bury that feeling that our intimacy was ours alone. Now I must share that time with 4 OW's (ONS) that didn't even know his name, had no investment in a life with him.

I put my heart, soul and entire life into a man and a marriage that was tossed into the trash. The feeling of being special to him, the "only" one, etc... Gone forever.

ON Dday I went into his closet and clutched his shirts and rocked back and forth and cried until I vomited. I felt like my husband, the man I married and loved, was dead. I grieved losing the man that was mine. I swear to you, I felt like he had died. My H and my M were DEAD.

I am just now buying a pair of silicone wedding rings to represent our R. I will not put on gold or say vows again with him for a while. We are making a new M. I feel like ALL A related years are completely and totally gone. Fake, not real, thrown in the trash years of pseudo-M.

I've spent almost two years now, grieving. Grieving for choices I didn't make, for a marriage that didn't really exist. I think the events that happened within those years that were "good" (children born, grandchildren, etc...) I think of as totally separate events, not related to him at all. NO marital "event" during those years is, in any way, a good or real memory to me. It's like someone took black paint and put it on all the pictures and memories from the cheating years. I can never see it any other way.

As to the pre-A years...I do see love, and life and a marriage. I don't throw that away. It took me a loooooooooooooong time to get there though! I was so pissed on Dday I basically told him I wished I'd never met, married or had children with him. I wanted to rip up ALL the pictures from those years, but I'm glad I didn't now.

I never knew infidelity could make you feel like the person you loved literally DIED. But it did, it does. Anything post Dday is NEW. I have to separate it in my mind that way or I will go insane. Truth.

Personally (and I felt this on dday long before I knew the extent of my WH's secrets), the entire M is dead - just as it would be if we had divorced before dday. I don't think my WH sees it the same way. Bottom line for me is the secrets were a dealbreaker the A was a dealbreaker - the M is dead.

This is honestly how I feel about my M. My WS lied too much and had one too many A's that I don't know what part of the M to believe. I chose to believe that it died on D-Day and still feels that way 6 years later. I'm still waiting to see if this M can be saved but things aren't looking that way as my WS still has selfish tendencies and it's ALWAYS about him and what he is suffering from in life. I remember the good times before we had our first child, but I even think maybe he was pulling the wool over my eyes back then too.

My H and I look at it like the people we were then more than the marriage. I didnt like him or myself very much then. We are different people now. We love the new US!!!

I do feel that the marriage I had with my wife is dead. Something has replaced it is a very special friendship, a sharing, a reciprocal loving, taking care of each other.

Perhaps dead is the wrong word though. I'm into it 5 years now. Imagine I had large picture with life memories my WW and I had drawn onto it--many small scenes of events and people. It was a beautiful mosaic of pictures on paper drawn by my wife and I.

My wife, in her rage and deceit, painted on the OM, ripped it off the wall crumpled it up, stomped on it, and stuffed it in the trash.

Then, alone, I took it out of the trash and smoothed it out and washed off the egg and coffee grounds and trash and put it back up on the wall.

At first it really looks like shit. But my wife joins me and we keep on fixing and smoothing and making new pictures on it. It will never be what it was, and I can still see how she killed it/ruined it/defaced it, but it still is growing and fixing and changing.

And it's still my life, our life, our children's lives, and yes the OM is still there staring at me, try as I might to overlook it.

It's the only picture I have, and I choose to try to make the best of it. It still has it's moments of beauty, and those moments are becoming less rare over time.

Also, I believe that God is present in the formation of every marriage. I don't believe that a man or a woman has the power to break what God joins as one, regardless of what we think on the matter, until death do you part. My 2 cents.

Thank you for all of the responses. Not perfect yours made me cry, it’s such a practical and deep visual.

I originally posted this thinking about a cabinet that we have filled with our wedding stuff, and our family pictures. It’s a beautiful glass showcase of all of it right in the middle of our dining room. I know my H walks by it everyday and as I was cleaning it I thought I should really put these things away. Not because the marriage is dead but that a constant reminder of that day might hurt him. I asked him if he’d be okay with it and it started a really good conversation about letting go of our past. I wasn’t getting my attachment to having these things packed away. They are just pictures. I’d much rather fill the cabinet with memories that are new and untarnished. It’s going to look really empty and sad for a while and maybe I need to walk by it everyday as a good reminder.

[This message edited by Rogue0719 at 11:32 AM, September 20th (Thursday)]

I know my H walks by it everyday and as I was cleaning it I thought I should really put these things away. Not because the marriage is dead but that a constant reminder of that day might hurt him. I asked him if he’d be okay with it and it started a really good conversation about letting go of our past. I wasn’t getting my attachment to having these things packed away. They are just pictures. I’d much rather fill the cabinet with memories that are new and untarnished. It’s going to look really empty and sad for a while and maybe I need to walk by it everyday as a good reminder.

I don't know if I would take that stuff out.

Our bedroom has two pictures of our marriage. Both of her in her wedding dress and me in my Navy dress whites.

After dday she took them down. I was offended thinking, "Not only did she figuratively throw me in the trash, but she actually did it with the pictures too!"

When I asked her about why, she said that she didn't think I would want to see them any more. I put them back on the wall. It does pain me to see those pictures. I look at them and think, "How could you have done that!?! What were you thinking!?!" But still they hang there on the wall.

But 4 years into our reconciliation and my feelings have changed. I still see her excited and joyous face. I look at my own relieved and happy eyes. I see the scratches my old cat, long gone, put in the glare free glass over my wife -- it was a very possessive cat. I look at the alter, long torn down and refurbished a decade or more ago, the seventies colors replaced by marble and stone.

Perhaps your husband will look back with time as I do in 5 years and the pain and rage will slowly have changed into a calm disappointment. He will look at those old pictures and items and they will still be there with other things added and he will see that while the adultery will never be just a "bump in the road" it will take a reduced place in his and your life. It will fade and change over time if you work on it.

His capabilities are not seen as a negative to me anymore either. I’m proud of him in how he’s come back into his own self. He’s more of the man that I fell in love with now than he’s been in a while.

Love is a verb, far less an emotion or a feeling. It is something you intend and offer and allow to be received. It is an acceptance of their shortcomings and an appreciation for the uniqueness and strengths. Love most of all is a decision.

There is an article I have saved that tells of a research study. It asked half the participants to rate feelings for a person they had loved. Then, over the course of days, they were to think on all the bad, hurtful, and selfish things those people had done and then rate those people at the end. The other half of the group were to think the opposite. They were to think of all the ways they were appreciative, kind, helpful, and just good people.

The research showed that thinking of and focusing on the good, grew the feelings of love, and focusing on the bad made them feel less loving and more distant.

Over time, intentions that focus on the negative in someone can turn love into ambivalence, disappointment, discontentment, distain, anger, rage, and lastly disgust and contempt. That's what how my wife's love changed slowly over 20 years. She did it by focusing on me (and life) as a glass half empty (and then all empty).

So try to rearrange the thoughts of your husband's past in a positive light. Your husband must, in his time, accept what was done to him and his family, and try to appreciate the old good you from the past and view you from the new good you going forward. At least that is what has helped me.

Rogue,

1) I could understand saying your H was your best friend and you want him to be that again, but it hurts to see 'is my best friend' at this point. OTOH, that statement definitely triggered me, so this response may be off.

2) On and after d-day, I didn't know what our M was. The idea that the old M was dead helped me focus on my own healing. On our 1st post-d-day anniversary, 9 months after d-day, I said I didn't know if we had been M 9 months or 44 years. I just didn't know.

But my (fW)W never thought the M was dead. She knew I might D her, but IIRC she was totally convinced we had been M since our wedding, and she wanted to celebrate the anniversary. (After discussing ways to make note of the anniversary, she asked me to go out to dinner with her, I agreed, we had a great time.)

As R progressed, I came to think that we had been M since our wedding. That was probably 2014.

Bottom line: 'The old M is dead' is a convenient fiction useful for a BS's healing.

As far as I can see, and M isn't truly dead until the XH's and XW's lives are separate - separate living arrangements, separate finances, agreements for caring for kids, etc.