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Reconciliation :
More trickle truth - feels like another Dday

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 Lp0725 (original poster member #70272) posted at 3:36 PM on Wednesday, August 7th, 2019

WH and I have been attempting R for the past month or so. Things have been going well for the most part. He has read the Linda Macdonald book that was recommended here and has been putting it into action. For the first time in awhile I'm starting to feel loved and valued by him again. I hadn't looked at his phone for awhile until last night. Some background for those who don't know my story: WH had two EA's. The first incident was in December and was sexting. A few months later, in March, I found out he was still following his AP#1 on social media and I freaked out and demanded a divorce and kicked him out of the house. I even went public changing my last name on social media because I felt so done with him. Well the night after I asked for a divorce and threw him out, he stayed at a hotel. I had contacted his AP#1 the day prior demanding to know details of what happened. The next day she messaged me back talking a bunch of crap saying my WH was texting her that night he was at the hotel trying to get her to have sex with him. He denied it of course, and was still denying that happened until last night. I knew he was lying but had no proof. Well last night I found all his voice recordings through his Google account (he uses voice to text) and saw EVERYTHING he was saying to her. It was horrible. He was talking crap on me calling me crazy, telling her he wanted to be with her and wanted to have sex with her (it was clear from the messages that they'd never had sexual contact in person before). The next day, he begged her to please not send me the screenshots of their conversation, and she obviously listened.

When I confronted him with the recordings last night, at first he got angry, asking why I keep digging when we've been doing so good and we're trying to reconcile. I told him I was looking because I wanted to make sure he didn't have sex with anyone (that's a dealbreaker for me and would mean divorce for sure). Then he calmed down and was begging forgiveness, saying he had never meant any of it, that it was so long ago when he was in a totally different state of mind, and that all he wants now is to save our marriage. I know the messages are from 5 months ago, but it still feels like a knife in my heart. I didn't even get angry, I was just devastated crying my eyes out. He was crying too, saying he's so sorry and I'm everything to him. It sure is hard to believe that after seeing the stuff he was saying to her. She's a worthless POS too, I'm a better woman than her in every way. And he still wanted her. He says it was only because he was fucked up in the head at the time, and he thought I was totally done with him and divorcing him. I guess he figured at the time he had nothing to lose and just wanted to get laid. I asked why he didn't just come clean and tell me the truth this past month, and he says he was afraid to tell me and he was hoping to just put it behind us. I told him we can't R without complete honesty from him. I'm just in so much pain now I wish I hadn't even looked. But I guess at least now I know they didn't actually have sex, which is the only silver lining in this. I was already fairly certain they didn't have sex because I've been tracking his location through Google timeline, but still.

This TT is going to drive me insane. What else don't I know? He needs to get it through his head that I need 100% honesty, even if it hurts me. If he had admitted he tried to fuck her that night, it wouldn't hurt as bad as having to read all those messages myself. He was sending her pics saying look how hard I am for you, I've wanted to fuck you since the day I met you. I feel so sick... I'm in so much pain I don't even know what to do with myself.

[This message edited by Lp0725 at 5:20 PM, August 7th (Wednesday)]

posts: 178   ·   registered: Apr. 10th, 2019   ·   location: PA
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sewardak ( member #50617) posted at 3:47 PM on Wednesday, August 7th, 2019

He needs to get it through his head that I need 100% honesty, even if it hurts me.

I'm so sorry honey. So many WS don't understand this. they think they're saving us from hurt but what they're really doing is acting cowardly.

I've had this conversation so many times with my husband. I feel like the WS is tricking the BS into staying married by lying. Really? Is that the kind of person you want to be, someone who has to lie to someone to stay married. How very.... pathetic.

has he read Joseph's letter?

posts: 4125   ·   registered: Dec. 1st, 2015   ·   location: it's cold here
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layla1234 ( member #68851) posted at 4:08 PM on Wednesday, August 7th, 2019

Were you able to see her responses to what he was saying?

Married: 5-15-11
3 kids: ages 6, 3, and baby born in Sept.
D-day of EA with married COW:7-18-18

So much missing info from my story. I'm too exhausted to add it all. Divorce process started.

posts: 856   ·   registered: Nov. 15th, 2018
id 8416707
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 Lp0725 (original poster member #70272) posted at 4:11 PM on Wednesday, August 7th, 2019

Thanks sewardak, I know maybe he justified it to himself that he was "protecting" me from pain, but really all they're doing is covering their own asses. Lying is how he got himself into this mess in the first place. That old saying really is so accurate: The truth will set you free!

Telling me the truth about EVERYTHING is the only way I'll ever trust him again. All cheaters need to get this through their thick skulls.

I'm not sure what Joseph's letter is... Can you tell me about it?

posts: 178   ·   registered: Apr. 10th, 2019   ·   location: PA
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landclark ( member #70659) posted at 4:14 PM on Wednesday, August 7th, 2019

This TT is going to drive me insane. What else don't I know? He needs to get it through his head that I need 100% honesty, even if it hurts me. If he had admitted he tried to fuck her that night, it would'nt hurt as bad as having to read all those messages myself.

My WH doesn't get this either, which seems to be a common theme with waywards. I think self preservation kicks in for them. It's very frustrating.

I'm sure he was hurting that night and made him self believe it was over, so why not, but to immediately jump to "I want to get screwed" is a problem, IMO. What happens next time you have a major fight? More of the same? How is he working to stop this being his first instinct?

I feel like the WS is tricking the BS into staying married by lying.

Yep.

Me: BW Him: WH (GuiltAndShame) Dday 05/19/19 TT through August
One child together, 3 stepchildrenTogether 13.5 years, married 12.5

First EA 4 months into marriage. Last ended 05/19/19. *ETA, contd an ea after dday for 2 yrs.

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sewardak ( member #50617) posted at 4:21 PM on Wednesday, August 7th, 2019

go to the library on the left hand side and look under articles

posts: 4125   ·   registered: Dec. 1st, 2015   ·   location: it's cold here
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 Lp0725 (original poster member #70272) posted at 4:22 PM on Wednesday, August 7th, 2019

Layla, unfortunately I couldn't see her responses but it was clear from what he was saying that she was into it and was believing his bullshit. It makes me so angry that this pathetic whore really believed she was more important to him than I am. I feel so humiliated. I want to contact her and tell her that she's a piece of shit, and that if he actually wanted her he'd be with her (she's single). But I don't know if I even believe that myself. I don't even feel like plan B... more like plan Z... like I was last on his list. I told him this morning I don't believe he loves me at all and I feel worthless. He insists he is so in love with me and I was starting to believe him again but now I'm right back to feeling like I mean nothing to him and our whole marriage has been a lie. I used to feel we had this really special, intense connection I'd never experienced before. Now I feel like that was all just in my head. I imagined all of it. I don't even know why he married me in the first place. He was so happy on our wedding day. He couldn't even contain himself. He was tearing up when I came up the aisle and couldn't hold back from kissing me when I got there, even though we hadn't even said our vows yet. Was that all just fake? I don't know what is real anymore

posts: 178   ·   registered: Apr. 10th, 2019   ·   location: PA
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Chaos ( member #61031) posted at 4:23 PM on Wednesday, August 7th, 2019

He's not trying to spare you pain. He's trying to save his own ass.

Funny thing about liars - they lie. And more often than not, when they do "come clean" it is only up to what you can actually prove - not what they actually did.

The "you're my everything" and "protecting you" and "sparing you additional pain" and other bull shit is just that - bull shit. Designed to save their ass along with the added bonus of them not having to deal with it. Straight from Wayward Handbook - chapter "Trickle Truth - Throw This on the Wall and See if it Sticks"

ETA - it is another DDay. And he needs to realize that.

[This message edited by Chaos at 10:41 AM, August 7th (Wednesday)]

BS-me/WH-4.5yrLTA Married 2+ decades-2 adult children. Multiple DDays w/same LAP until I told OBS 2018- Cease & Desist sent spring 2021 "Hello–My name is Chaos–You f***ed my husband-Prepare to Die!"

posts: 4006   ·   registered: Oct. 13th, 2017   ·   location: East coast
id 8416717
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mamabear22 ( member #62311) posted at 4:27 PM on Wednesday, August 7th, 2019

I COPY AND PASTED THIS FROM ON LINE..i HOPE YOU CAN FOLLOW IT, IT IS A GOOD READ.

Joseph’s Letter? Return to Sender

If you’ve spent any time on reconciliation boards, you’re familiar with Joseph’s Letter. It was written by a member of a defunct forum “BAN”, but appears at Surviving Infidelity and Marriage Builders.

It’s a plea from a man (Joseph) to his wayward wife to please answer questions about her affair instead of doing the ol’ rug sweep. “I don’t remember” or “Let’s stop bringing this up and move forward” or “Telling you would only hurt you more.” Rug sweeping is the nice word for it. Minimizing, lying, and mindfucking are other terms. We don’t really know what kind of mindfuckery is going on in Joseph’s marriage, only that Joseph’s wife has been less than forthcoming and it’s torturing the poor guy.

Joseph’s letter is invoked as as sort of holy relic in unicorn circles. A resource by which chumps should model themselves when approaching “waywards.” (The nice word for cheater. Fucktard, liar, fraud are other terms.) That is to say, approach with deference. Assume the very best qualities in your cheater — that deep down they’re good people who love you as much as you love them, and are every bit as invested in the marriage. Acknowledge that the cheater’s pain is equal to your pain. Tell them how much you love them.

Joseph’s letter is quintessentially chumpy — kind and forgiving, and glazed with more spackle than an army of dry wallers. When I read it, my heart breaks for the man. He clearly has a big heart and he’s trying to share it with someone he delusionally assumes cares for him.

But it also makes me want to slap Joseph. “DUDE! She’s DOESN’T WANT TO TELL YOU BECAUSE SHE PREFERS YOU DON’T KNOW!” That’s what her ACTIONS say. Know why she doesn’t tell you the details? Because she doesn’t want you to know them. It’s that simple.

But Joseph persists. Maybe if I explain this thing like a jigsaw puzzle missing a few pieces, she’ll understand! Because that’s what she lacks — insight! Did it every occur to Joseph that maybe his wife prefers the power seat of knowledge over him? That talking about it makes her uncomfortable, or calls into question her self regard, so she puts avoiding her discomfort over his pain? Did it ever occur to Joseph that his wife is a selfish bitch?

So today I thought I’d put Joseph’s letter through the patented Universal Bullshit Translator.

First, here’s the letter:

To Whomever,

I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly.

No one wants to be forced to ‘look’ at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn’t mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn’t he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I’m going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge.

You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you’re carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the ‘STUFF’ to figure out OUR reality. There isn’t really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don’t have.

Now let’s enter my reality. Let’s both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down.

To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever ‘feel’ complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are.

When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don’t worry about it, it’s not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don’t worry about it, it’s not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what’s the difference, it’s not important.

Then later when I’m expected to understand the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it.

You wonder why I can’t just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don’t you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart.

I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together.

It doesn’t come from jealousy, it doesn’t come from spitefulness, and it doesn’t come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn’t it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn’t it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can’t and the reason I can’t is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world.

And here is the translation:

To Whomever,

I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion.

Joseph, your cheater isn’t “confused.” She knows exactly what she’s doing. Does her guilt pain her? Perhaps, but not as much as you knowing about her affair and nattering on about it pains her.

I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me.

Put down the spackle, Joe. Her affair doesn’t pain her the way it pains you — it’s NOT EVEN CLOSE. She enjoyed the affair — that’s why she did it. And went back for seconds and thirds. Ego kibbles and cake are awesome. That’s what her actions say — she had an affair because she wanted it, not because it “pained” her.

I think in your chumpy little brain you have to imagine your wife is in the same kind of pain you are, so there is some kind of justice. Gee, it’s all just one big clusterfuck and we’re all hurting! NO — she DID THIS TO YOU. And yes, herself. But for her to want understanding for her self-inflicted pain is like the guy who murdered his parents wanting clemency from the court for being an orphan. Fuck her, Joe.

I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly.

Well, that’s true. No one wants their mistakes thrown in their face. But this wasn’t a mistake (singular) or misjudgment (singular) — this was an affair. It’s betrayal. It was completely pre-meditated, unlike a mistake — which is spilling wine accidentally on a friend’s sofa. You pay the cleaning bill, and yes, you hope no one mentions it again. But what you’ve got Joe is a much bigger mess to clean up. If you want to reconcile, she’s going to have face it (excuse me “have it thrown in her face”) for YEARS — because that’s how long it takes to heal. If it ever heals in reconciliation. (The Universal Bullshit Translator is very skeptical.)

No one wants to be forced to ‘look’ at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again.

“Their” pain, Joe? There you go assuming again that she feels pain the way you feel it.

I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn’t mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn’t he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I’m going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

And there’s your problem, Joe. She will NOT view reality through your eyes. To do that she’d have to have EMPATHY, which she just demonstrated through an affair that she is lacking. Now, I know to reconcile, you have to believe that this lapse in empathy was temporary, brought about by the fun of naughty sex and such, but consider that it might go deeper, that lack of empathy might be who she IS. That’s her character. And character changes very slowly and painfully and isn’t brought about by heartfelt letters, but things like consequences. The most empathy deficient? Consequences don’t even get through to those idiots. They keep doing the same stupid shit over and over again.

You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge.

You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you’re carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the ‘STUFF’ to figure out OUR reality. There isn’t really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don’t have.

Joe, you don’t share a reality, or values, or much else. There is her reality and your reality. She’s looking at this through the lens of ME, and you want her to see her world through a lens of OURS. She doesn’t do that. She’s got her own agenda. Not telling you the truth is about her gaining advantage over you. It’s for her own protection, so you won’t know the full truth about your life and what she did, so then you won’t impose consequences.

Now let’s enter my reality. Let’s both agree that this affects our lives equally.

Let’s agree that leprechauns run the state lotteries. Let’s agree that I’m Baroness Penelope Snootypants and I live in a castle. Let’s agree that Tori Spelling is a Rhodes scholar.

The outcome no matter what it is will affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down.

Of course you deserve to know, Joe. It’s just that your wife (as you dimly suspect) doesn’t think you deserve to know, because you’re a lesser being. A chump. Not the sort of fabulous, deserving person she is. This isn’t a contest of equals here.

Also, you’ve got to let go of the idea that it was “a night” — singular. Where’d you get that nugget? Let me guess — the wife who’s lying to you and not filling you in on the particulars, right?

To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives will ever ‘feel’ complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are.

No, she doesn’t expect you to be able to “discern what you are looking at” or “appreciate its context.” That’s spackle for SHE IS STILL LYING TO YOU.

What she expects is for you to shut up about it already.

When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don’t worry about it, it’s not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don’t worry about it, it’s not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what’s the difference, it’s not important.

The puzzle is a nice metaphor, but this isn’t a children’s game. You’re not seeing a tree or animals. You’re not seeing unprotected sex, or multiple partners, or all the emails where she tells her affair partner what an asshole you are.

Then later when I’m expected to understand the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it.

You wonder why I can’t just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

She doesn’t care how you feel about it. You aren’t expected to understand the puzzle. That’s the POINT.

So, you want me to be okay with everything.

Now you’re getting it, Joe. Keep connecting those dots.

You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder.

Yes, that’s it exactly.

You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don’t you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart.

Oh, she totally understands that you want to believe her completely. That’s how you manipulate chumps and abuse their trust. They want to believe.

I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together.

It doesn’t come from jealousy, it doesn’t come from spitefulness, and it doesn’t come from a desire to make you suffer.

Joe, it’s not jealousy when your wife is fucking another man. That’s righteous anger at being betrayed. Who told you those feelings were “spiteful”? You deserve to be in a marriage where your wife isn’t fucking another man in secret. You don’t have a desire to make her suffer? Well, she sure as hell doesn’t care if YOU suffer.

It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this?

Because you’re a chump and you’ve got spackle issues.

Wouldn’t it be easier for me to walk away?

Walking away isn’t “easier.” It takes a huge amount of guts. Keeping your 401K and your family together is the societally accepted path. But I’ll give you this, doing what you’re doing is self-inflicted torture and much more painful. You should consider walking away for your sanity and self respect.

Wouldn’t it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons?

Easier? No. Healthier? Yes.

Of course it would, but I can’t and the reason I can’t is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world.

Love the all-powerful spackle. Joe, some love isn’t good for us. Some relationships are toxic and it doesn’t matter how much you love the person, you need to walk away, because they don’t love you back with mutuality and respect. They love you as a superior loves an inferior. They love that you’re of use to them. They love the kibbles.

Love yourself more, Joe and burn this letter. Stop spilling your guts to a woman who demonstrably doesn’t give a shit about you. You’re better than this.

Me - BS (42)
WH - 48
6 month emotional and PA
I think that was all, still TT
Married 21 years
DDay - August 2017
Reconciling - at least trying to.

posts: 392   ·   registered: Jan. 17th, 2018   ·   location: canada
id 8416719
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 Lp0725 (original poster member #70272) posted at 4:31 PM on Wednesday, August 7th, 2019

Landclark, I see this is a very common behavior with waywards... I know I can't expect him to just fix himself overnight but I need it all out there now so we can actually start healing. I think he really did believe we were over, but obviously it doesn't make me feel any better that his first instinct was to try to fuck someone to feel better. I'm going to talk to him more about this tonight... how he will handle it in the future if we have a bad fight.

posts: 178   ·   registered: Apr. 10th, 2019   ·   location: PA
id 8416723
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mamabear22 ( member #62311) posted at 4:31 PM on Wednesday, August 7th, 2019

I wanted to give credit to the writer of this article but this forum won't let me post the name?

No Soliciting

I think U get the idea of the missing letter.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:32 PM, August 7th (Wednesday)]

Me - BS (42)
WH - 48
6 month emotional and PA
I think that was all, still TT
Married 21 years
DDay - August 2017
Reconciling - at least trying to.

posts: 392   ·   registered: Jan. 17th, 2018   ·   location: canada
id 8416725
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Bigger ( Attaché #8354) posted at 4:44 PM on Wednesday, August 7th, 2019

Lp

If you tell someone that something is a deal breaker and would definitely lead to a conclusion they don’t want… they will hide it.

If your husband having had sex is a deal breaker and if he had sex and is hiding it OR you think he had sex and can’t prove it… there is no way the truth will be willingly offered, or reconciliation successfully attained.

I would make this suggestion:

You sit your husband down and tell him this isn’t working. It’s not working because you don’t feel assured you have the truth. Like if they had sex or not.

Tell him that you think knowing they had sex would possibly/probably end this marriage, but that trying to reconcile without YOU feeling like you have the total truth is DEFINITELY going to kill this marriage.

Of the two options he can chose the one that will possibly kill the marriage (admitting he had physical contact) or he can stick to his story and you two deal with something that if left unsolved will kill the marriage.

If he insists he’s telling the truth, then a polygraph will confirm his truth and establish that you need to get a better grasp on your trust issues.

If he fails… It shows he doesn’t trust you for the truth and completely removes any hope for reconciliation.

And then let him choose: Tell the truth and confirm it with a poly or stick to a lie and have the lie confirmed with a poly.

ps: mammabear, I'm only a measly Guide but even I know that the mods of this site usually have a good reason for whatever limitations they place on us. Let's just respect their decisions...

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

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cocoplus5nuts ( member #45796) posted at 4:48 PM on Wednesday, August 7th, 2019

He's not trying to spare you pain. He's trying to save his own ass

Yep. They try to justify the continued secrets and lying as protecting us, but it's bullshit.

R doesn't start until they come completely clean. Every new revelation puts a BP right back to square one. Until your CH gets this, he is not fully remorseful and you are not in R.

My fch subjected me to TT for about 6 months. He didn't confess everything until the night before his polygraph. That's why I have 2 ddays. R didn't start until after dday2.

Me(BW): 1970
WH(caveman): 1970
Married June, 2000
DDay#1 June 8, 2014 EA
DDay#2 12/05/14 confessed to sex before polygraph
Status: just living my life

posts: 6900   ·   registered: Dec. 1st, 2014   ·   location: Virginia
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sewardak ( member #50617) posted at 4:55 PM on Wednesday, August 7th, 2019

"If you tell someone that something is a deal breaker and would definitely lead to a conclusion they don’t want… they will hide it.

Bigger I think you and I have disagreed on this before, not sure... but... a truly remorseful and healthy spouse will admit to everything because they are an individual with integrity. Anything else and they're not worthy of reconciliation yet. If he's done the work he'll tell the truth.

I told my husband if he's had sex we're done. If he's hiding that fact well, how very cowardly and pathetic that he has to insist on a lie to stay married to me. What does that say about him? that he's fearful and thinks he can make decisions for other people - not remorseful and not a healthy mature person.

posts: 4125   ·   registered: Dec. 1st, 2015   ·   location: it's cold here
id 8416736
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Bigger ( Attaché #8354) posted at 5:09 PM on Wednesday, August 7th, 2019

Sewardak

What happens if your husband is still hiding that he had sex? All that will mean is that he’s hidden it from you since 2015. If it came out now and is a deal-breaker it only means false R for 4 years. If he thinks he’s gotten away with it and knows telling the truth would 100% lead to a divorce he might be willing to live with that limitation on his integrity – and you could possibly never know.

And what happened that day in 2015 that changed your husband instantly from being a “normal” WS having his affair and then being whammed with a d-day into a truly remorseful man of integrity? I venture that people mature into being truly remorseful and that becoming a man of integrity is the result of the work of true reconciliation.

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

posts: 13098   ·   registered: Sep. 29th, 2005
id 8416741
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 Lp0725 (original poster member #70272) posted at 5:31 PM on Wednesday, August 7th, 2019

I've thought this before myself - that I probably shouldn't have told him physical cheating would be a dealbreaker for me since it removes any incentive for him to come clean. If coming clean just means I'll leave him anyway, he could justify it to himself that he has nothing to lose by being honest. But the cat is out of the bag already on that, and if I suddenly told him it's not actually a dealbreaker (as a way to convince him to tell the truth), he'd know I'm only saying that to get him to admit it so I can leave him.

I mentioned a polygraph to him before and he said he'd do it, but I don't know if I'm really sold on the idea. I don't know if I really believe they're accurate and if he passes, what if I still wonder if he somehow cheated the test? I just don't know if it would really give me the peace of mind I'm looking for.

posts: 178   ·   registered: Apr. 10th, 2019   ·   location: PA
id 8416751
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Humbled123 ( member #62947) posted at 5:46 PM on Wednesday, August 7th, 2019

I have seen it on here before. You will never know all the truth.

Ive been on both sides. My ww dday 11/17 has minimized the sexual aspect of her affair. Number of times, enjoyment,orgasm, etc. we are 18 months in to reconciliation. I don’t want to stir shit anymore, im tired, life is passing me by. It’s a real mind fuck tho and could have consequences decades down the road, my own affair, divorce, etc. im comfortable for now. If you asked me if ill be married 5 yr from now? No idea, because im not fully committed. Here’s how I know the LONG term effects of tt. 22 years ago i had an affair. I had three sexual encounters with her. I lied about the sex to my wife for 20 yrs. why? Because I was terrified that that would break the 🐫 back. I was terrified. I knew I had made a huge mistake and didn’t want to lose her. After her affair I confessed. The tt ate at her like cancer for decades. Im sure it was a contributor to her straying.

posts: 219   ·   registered: Mar. 5th, 2018
id 8416761
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 Lp0725 (original poster member #70272) posted at 6:37 PM on Wednesday, August 7th, 2019

Humbled, I think my WH is making the same rationalizations that you made. We've been doing so well this past month, and now we're right back to square one because he's too scared to be honest.

The sexual messages hurt, but what really hurt the most was the fact he was talking shit on me to her. After he did that, this whore was messaging me saying I'm fighting for a man who truly and honestly doesn't want me. Those words have stuck with me, and now I know why she felt comfortable saying that to me. It's because he was really behaving like I'm nothing to him. Now I'm right back to feeling worthless and unwanted, like I'm only being kept around as a backup plan. I love him so fucking much and he just doesn't feel the same, and there's nothing I can do about it. I thought I was the love of his life, but that was all in my head. It was all one sided all along. He had me believing it too... he changed his whole life to be with me and had never done that for any woman before. Now I think he just used me cuz he wanted a kid. I'm not special to him at all. I'm just the only idiot who was stupid enough to believe in him.

posts: 178   ·   registered: Apr. 10th, 2019   ·   location: PA
id 8416781
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sewardak ( member #50617) posted at 6:50 PM on Wednesday, August 7th, 2019

I venture that people mature into being truly remorseful and that becoming a man of integrity is the result of the work of true reconciliation.

agreed, and that does take some time, but it's been over 5 years and I've seen him do the work, although I'll never be entirely sure.

If he thinks he’s gotten away with it and knows telling the truth would 100% lead to a divorce he might be willing to live with that limitation on his integrity – and you could possibly never know

why should the WS tell the truth about anything then. I believe it becomes apparent when you've seen them do years of work and see their change in personality.

I probably shouldn't have told him physical cheating would be a dealbreaker for me since it removes any incentive for him to come clean.

this is so very sad. a person needs incentive to tell the truth other than holding onto their own integrity? If he's done the work (and maybe it is too soon) then he'll tell the truth.

I maintain that someone hiding the truth is not in true reconciliation, nor are they a changed WS and a mature person. They may be tricking their spouse. Not sure how they live with themselves.

If you have to create a safe space or lie yourself for your WS to tell the truth, just damn, that's too much drama, manipulation and codependency for me.

[This message edited by sewardak at 12:52 PM, August 7th (Wednesday)]

posts: 4125   ·   registered: Dec. 1st, 2015   ·   location: it's cold here
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 Lp0725 (original poster member #70272) posted at 9:33 PM on Wednesday, August 7th, 2019

Sewardak, I completely agree. He's obviously not ready for R at this time and who knows if he ever will be.

I just wrote WH a letter... basically just telling him that he'll never love me the way I love him and there's no point in continuing with the charade. I told him I'll never be enough for him and that he doesn't need to stay with me out of obligation. I'll be fine in the end. I'm a strong person and have been through worse. I said I thought I was special to him but now I see I'm not and that I never really meant anything to him. I've told him so many times he doesn't need to stay because of our son, that I'd never keep him from him. Why the fuck is he even still here? Why doesn't he just leave when it's so obvious I'll never be what he wants?

I just can't do this anymore. I seriously feel like death is better than all the pain and feelings of worthlessness. I have to go on for my kids who need me but I wish I could just get rid of all this heartache. I'm so broken down. He has completely destroyed me and the little bit of faith I had left in humanity. Our whole life together was a lie.

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