SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Good morning everyone... I haven't posted on here in quite sometime, as I've mainly been reading your posts and trying to gain insight on what I have going on in my own life, desperately seeking clarity on what to do now and where to turn next? I wanted to give a brief synopsis of what's gone on lately, and would ask that you please give me any and all advice you might have. It's been right over eleven months since the initial dday, although I've found out more and more info as time has passed. Not from him, but from things that have surfaced and been put in front of me. He has lied throughout the entire process, not helping me to heal or move forward in any way. After a great deal of consideration, and with a painful heart, I decided to leave, in the best interest of all involved. I have known all along since everything was exposed that he had to be a narcissist. Although he's not been diagnosed as such, he shows all the signs. When I told him it was over, and that I would be leaving, he told me that he knew there was something wrong with him, and that he wanted to get help. Although he has begged me to stay all along, he's never admitted to feeling that there was something wrong with him, mentally, to allow him to act the way he does and treat me the same. He asked if we could try an in home separation. Reluctantly, I agreed, with the understanding that if I didn't see significant changes and him seeking help, I would not continue to stay. So, after hearing all of this, I just need your feedback on what you believe is going on inside his head, and if it's even possible for a narcissist to change at all? Or am I still clinging to a false hope? Thanks in advance for listening and anything you can offer to help me in understanding what I should or shouldn't do. Y'all stay safe and stay blessed.

[This message edited by BrokenMimi at 7:00 PM, April 7th (Tuesday)]

Just going by personal experience.

My mother is diagnosed Narcissist.

I would do research and see if they can. My mother didn't bother at all. As a matter of fact she had a way of saying things that were passive aggressive with the woe is me (victim card) if confronted by behavior she really couldn't dispute for change. I don't know how to describe it. Admit she needed to change and had a fault without really admitting it was her. It was more like she would address the actual behavior and not her. Long story short, she never changed any of the behaviors. She could talk like she would. She was very good at playing a part. Manipulating the situation to blow smoke up people's asses.

Most people don't really bother to change till their feet are held to the fire. I really didn't look to change till my wife gave me the Lethal Plain of Flatness. She actually kicked me out. At that time I was a complete mess. I didn't choose to change till I really wanted to change for myself. Not for my wife, marriage, or kids. Myself because I was fucking miserable. Hated myself. Sure, the other factors played a part. Really though those parts were at the beginning for selfish reasons. Those parts had to shift to selfless reasons. Because those parts deserved better, even if it meant being without me in their lives.

No, a pathological narcissist will not change. They won't because they will never admit there is anything wrong with them.

All PDs are on a spectrum. Your CH may not be pathological. If he can admit that there's something wrong with him (assuming it's not a manipulation), he's not pathological and could possibly change.

If I were you, I would follow through with leaving. Don't stick around to see if he changes. If he is serious and committed, he will do the work in spite of you leaving. Then, you might decide to give him another chance after seeing the changes.

BM, is going to IC? Reading books? Listening to podcasts? Researching? If not, he's not changing.

Even if he is, he owes you the full truth. He needs to give you a timeline of his transgressions and take a polygraph if you would like. That's step 1 to proving he can be truthful.

No, they don't change. Somewhere along the line its a chemical imbalance. My ex-husband is a narcissist. He controlled everything from major decisions to finances. Then his addictive disorder went with it that was actually sexual addiction. He had a fascination with European hookers to the point where he blew $16k on a cyber whore from Romania when I was 9 months pregnant with my youngest child. I dealt with that until he came down with an STD and swine flu at the same time, then lied about it. For years doctors were diagnosing it as ADD with anxiety. In truth he was a bipolar narcissist. He knew he had to be medicated the rest of his life but he played around with taking and not taking them and I just couldn't handle his behavior anymore and how he treated me. He was finding pleasure in emotionally hurting the people he loved. It was mentally and emotionally abusive and damaging. They cant change because they don't carry pre-cognitive thinking. They just act out instantly without regret or remorse. It has to be pointed out from a third party fir them to understand their actions. My guess if your on this site the he hasn't heard you in the very beginning when he was cheating. It was most likely an IC or MC that pointed it all out to them. They may listen momentarily and then they don't like the truth that the therapist or psychologist is telling them so they will eventually quit that. It gets to be a very tiresome battle fir the people around them and love and patience don't work because they will peg you as weak. I dealt with it for 26 years hoping it would get better. It progressively became worse as he got older. He even married a european woman who had two small kids and now he treats her like crap but she was looking fir her green card so she can deal with him now.

If you stick it out, your in for a long fight for the rest of your life. Books will educate them, but it wont fix it.

I think it depends on whether he's a diagnosed clinical narcissist or whether he simply (it's not really simple) has traits of a narcissist due to childhood trauma, sometimes referred to as ACE's (Adverse childhood experiences)

There are a lot of symptoms that can be caused by other things that will mimic narcissism. Lying is one of them.

From my experience. I've known actual pathological narcissists. These people will not be able to change, only possibly modify and attempt to control some behavior for a time, if it suits them. I was afraid my WH was a narcissist but three therapists said no, he's not. He was a pathological liar though. It's been over 5 years since I began to discover who I was really married to... my Dday 1. Today I am definitely NOT married to that man anymore. I'm also not married to the man I thought I'd chosen, but that's okay now too. He's a better man than both. He has been in therapy for 5 years. He has been working to be a better, more authentic person for at least 1 year since the final lies were exposed.

What I've learned through this is that a really broken and messed up person CAN change, but it's not going to be overnight. It's going to take TIME... a long time. His brain was hard-wired throughout his childhood to lie, avoid reality and confrontation, put on a mask and pretend to be whatever anyone wanted him to be. He's still working on being a better person. Lying was one of the hardest things he had to overcome.

So, is your H a clinical narcissist? or a liar, who has been lying to cover his ass, and avoid the reality of the horrible person he has been, and continue to live in a fantasy world where nothing hurts him? They aren't the same.

I wish you the best. R is one of the hardest things I've EVER had to go through in my life, but today I feel like it has been worth it.

These people will not be able to change, only possibly modify and attempt to control some behavior for a time, if it suits them.

PeaceLily210 has it right there. Excellent point.

How do you feel about that? If your husband changes anything it will be because he gets something out of it. Like a person not murdering because he fears jail, not because it hurts someone and its wrong. That will be the narcissist. Do you want to spend the rest of your life with someone that will only do things if it suits them and benefits them? That is the truth of it. As ugly as it is. It will never be because you are human and you deserve to be treated better or because he feels bad that you are hurting. Can you really love someone that will never be able to love you that way? Respect you that way or see you as a human with your own pain and struggles. It took me years to understand that about my mother. I stopped trying to earn her love, I know she can never do it. I tolerate her. I love her. I just don't center my life around her anymore. She will never be able to give me a two way relationship.

I don't think you are dealing with a narcissist in terms of a personality disorder.

he told me that he knew there was something wrong with him, and that he wanted to get help

Narcissists (with the personality disorder) will NEVER, EVER admit there is something wrong with them. Nor will they ask for help because they don't think there is anything wrong and therefore don't believe they need help. That's the saddest piece of someone with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD).

Now I'm not a psychologist so please understand this is based on my own understanding. There are definitely narcissistic tendencies that flourish after infidelity - or at least we notice them more - or maybe both.

I recall thinking that my WS suffered from many psychological disorders and truthfully he did during the fall out after d-day. I think the label matters less than the boundaries we need to place around ourselves in terms of behaviors that are and are not acceptable. I'm sorry BrokenMimi that you are finding such difficulties with your WS but you are putting in your boundaries - good on you!

the understanding that if I didn't see significant changes and him seeking help, I would not continue to stay

You may have to give him specifics and timelines in order to not be faced with a lack of clarity down the road.

Finally you ask this:

I just need your feedback on what you believe is going on inside his head

My opinion is he's scared. He's scared to be alone. He doesn't trust himself and he needs a safety net. But honestly he has to learn to trust himself and he has to learn to be okay with being alone before he can ever be a good partner to you. Fear drives a lot of behaviors that are based on survival rather than logic so you may see erratic behaviors as he tries to keep together what he tore apart. WS's egos are fragile as exemplified by the fact that they made a decision to turn away from their promise and instead seek instant gratification. So it seems logical to try and keep what you are in danger of losing and go back to once again having to face yourself - the very thing that they ran from when deciding to be unfaithful.

I hope that makes sense.

[This message edited by ISurvivedSoFar at 8:46 AM, April 8th (Wednesday)]

Nor will they ask for help because they don't think there is anything wrong and therefore don't believe they need help. That's the saddest piece of someone with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD).

SO TRUE!

When my mother needed something done it was either a demand. "Empty my ash tray." or a passive aggressive thing like "the so-and-so is doing this, I just don't know what to do, it makes me feel this". She would never ever humble herself and say, "hey, can you please do this for me, thank you." Anytime anything bigger was done for her due to her passive aggressive asking for something to be done..(again never asked for help) she would pay for it with a gift- everything was a transaction so she was never left feeling like she owed a debt of gratitude.

Thank y'all for the advice and encouragement. I'm going to talk to my therapist at my next session to see what his take on it will be. You mentioned that if a narcissist says they want to change, it could be nothing more than manipulation. I had actually already thought about that, and it has been in my mind since he told me that. I remember when he said he knew there was something wrong with him and he wanted to change, thinking bullshit! I've heard so many lies over the years of our marriage, that it's difficult for me to believe anything he says. He has joined this site, posting to the wayward side, and seems to be legitimately seeking advice and help. I just don't know what I'm supposed to believe or not believe. Everything I do, everything I say becomes an argument because he gets so defensive about everything. How do I discern between truth and lies? I just want to throw my hands up and call it a lost battle on my part...

Can a hyena change it’s spots?

I wish... my WH STBX refuses to even acknowledge the truth about his NPD...

ME: can you give me 1 good reason for us to reconcile after 32 years of an often violent and always abusive marriage

WH NPD: I need you to move back in so everyone will think that you have lied about me and the abuse, actually, I don’t care what people think... I just preferred having someone to abuse and blame for all the awful things that I have done...

Gotta love em... he’s a Narcissist, but he’s my Narcissist