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There's been so much going on in my life that it's not really even worth updating. It'd be a novel. But one aspect of it has been WW trying to help save a severely abused friend (her best friend who also happened to have encouraged and covered for the affair). I'm on board with that too. No matter what I think of anyone's character, no one deserves to be abused. This woman has finally left after a hospital visit with strangulation marks and a severely blackened eye. The hospital staff took it out of her hands and pressed the charges and the pos woman beater is behind bars for the time being. The saga is far from over, but one point of discussion has been "how does she keep believing his lies and that he'll change? How does she look at herself in the mirror, see the bruises, and still return and see him as a flawed victim who needs help she can give?"

That has hit me like a ton of bricks. I'm so tired of being cheated on. Tired of deception. Tired of being played a fool. And I know how I feel inside, yet I keep doing a very similar thing to WW that the battered woman does for woman beating POS. She thinks he won't be OK without her, or she without him, or she stays for the kids, and all of these reasons. It's insane looking from outside the fire into the situation. And that just struck me so hard. That's kind of my window into my own life from the outside. They're very different, I do get that and don't intend to minimize a pain and terror that a battered woman feels that I have never and could never experience. I'll never live as a woman with the threats yall face in life. I understand that. But cheating and lying and manipulating and having me never free from fear, always on edge. The humiliation and pain WW is doing to my mind and soul, it's abuse. Flat out. Just as if beaten physically. It could even lead to sickness and death if I just keep living this way. I'm no different than the battered woman. Ww is very similar to woman beating POS abuser, just inflicting mental and emotional anguish instead of physical. If someone thinks I'm way off please tell me, but I'm seeing as clearly as I have in a long time right now. I'm doing the same things I can't understand in the battered woman. I make excuses for her. I see her as a victim. I fear my life without her and life on the other side of divorce. I'm afraid she needs me and won't be OK. So I continue to allow my soul and mind to be battered. I see it now. More clearly than ever. I've got to end this cycle. I've got to run no matter the cost because the infidelity and lying isn't ending. I've got to run and not look back at if I were a victim of continuing abuse, because I think I kind of am.

Hi Marine,

You're absolutely right- emotional abuse is abuse. It's good you're seeing it clearly now.

Question for you, I see you're from the "Class of '19" that I'm in. It's been close to 4 years now and it sounds like your pain is still fresh and ongoing. What is the current situation at home? Is WW still cheating? Not disclosing or TT'ing? Has she given you a satisfactory account of her A? Is this current pain the result of A related wounds or the continuation of her mindfuckery?

What has she done to become safe for you? Is she working on herself?

Do you have an IC?

I've got to run and not look back at if I were a victim of continuing abuse, because I think I kind of am.

It sounds like you've had a life-changing lightbulb moment. If the cheating and lying is ongoing, I say use the energy from this revelation to take steps to remove yourself from the situation.

It sounds like you've finally woken up and seen the reality of your situation.

Now that you've finally looked in the mirror and acknowledged your bruises, what are you going to do?

I had this conversation with a counselor once:

My wife had essentially admitted that she'd lied to me for years. The gist of it was, "It’ll never happen again, but just to be clear -- it was done to protect you, and protect our marriage. I didn't want to hurt you any more. It was done out of love!"

I said, but what if you beat your child consistently, "I’m sorry. It’ll never happen again, but really, it was for your own good and it was all done out of love. Only Mommy and Daddy love you enough to beat you this way?" That’s not parenting -- That’s child abuse.

1345Marine,

I totally agree with your premise.

Have you told your wife how you feel about this? Or do you feel it is too far gone to even bother? Maybe a light bulb might come on in this context, if you even want to try?

I try to steer clear from commenting on posters who have suffered from betrayals that go above and beyond just the standard affairs you see on here, but yet the BS stays for all the wrong reasons. I find it frustrating to watch when someone is so totally abused as you have been, but yet are frozen in place. It’s like watching a horror film where one of the characters are about to go into the garage where the guy with the ax for hands is waiting for them. You scream at the TV, but you know damn well they are going in there, and that they are going to be decapitated. Stories such as yours are like that for me. She cheated for years and years, and continued to cheat after you found out and saw your devastation. She involved your kids, and the stories of her contact with AP being fiction she wrote is beyond silly.

The only reason I am posting now is your last line about revisiting what you should have done a long time ago makes me think you might be coming to the conclusion you should have reached a long time ago.

There are plenty of stories here where people successfully reconcile. Not all marriages are doomed. But there are also some where the marriage does need to end. Where the abuse and total reckless behavior of the WS is just not to be tolerated. I’m hoping you are not going back into the garage, but unfortunately I think I’m once again shouting at the screen.

Look, it’s your life and you need to do what’s best for you. But being her KISA at the expense of your own dignity is going to haunt you the rest of your life

I'll try to respond more tonight when I have a bit more time, but I think it's too far gone for any light bulb to go off in WW. I expressed it this morning, and she looked at me flabbergasted and said, "you're the one looking through my social media and phone and being controlling like that abusive POS beating up my friend, and you think I'm abusing you????"

I seriously think she just doesn't get it. She's always the victim, and yet would say the exact same thing about me always making myself the victim. It's a pretty hopeless cycle that I just have to take that terrifying, painful plunge and get out of.

I'm so sorry. If I remember correctly, you've been with your WW since you were sixteen, married for twenty years, and not yet 40 years old. It can't be easy for you to step back from this. It's pretty much all you've known.

I think it's too far gone for any light bulb to go off in WW. I expressed it this morning, and she looked at me flabbergasted and said, "you're the one looking through my social media and phone and being controlling like that abusive POS beating up my friend, and you think I'm abusing you????"

Unfortunately, I think you're right about this. She doesn't get it. She's never fully empathized with what she's put you through. If she had, it wouldn't even flitter through her mind that you checking her phone was in any way comparable.

Your opening post is not at all hyperbolic. While I don't believe that most WS's intend to abuse, the result is undeniably abuse of the BS. The results are traumatic. It's not broken bones or black eyes, but I'll be honest with you, broken bones and black eyes probably heal quicker. You found insight and clarity when you noticed the trauma bond affecting your WW's battered friend. Your WW's denial of the similarities can't invalidate the experience. You're able to understand that trauma bond in a way that mystified you before... because you see it in your own life.

I wish your WW would wake up and realize how desperately she needs to change, but you can't MAKE other people do the painful, introspective work they need to do to EARN their way back into attunement. You're still a young guy though with a lot of life ahead of you. As much as you might feel stuck, the choices really are yours to make.

Strength to you.

I mean A aside, and all her BS associated with it, your WW just doesn’t sound like a good person. She’s not a friend to you. So, even without her A, you probably would still be suffering.

The worst feeling in the world is to feel stuck in place. I suggest you either reconcile your mind to staying married to a totally crappy individual or get a divorce. If you decide to stay in misery, then you have no one to blame but yourself. Thus, posting here about how shitty a person she is in general, A aside, is not something that will move you forward.

However, asking advice about A related stuff, venting about it, and A stuff as it relates to her overall terribleness, of course may continue to prove valuable to you.

The humiliation and pain WW is doing to my mind and soul, it's abuse. Flat out. Just as if beaten physically. It could even lead to sickness and death if I just keep living this way. I'm no different than the battered woman. Ww is very similar to woman beating POS abuser, just inflicting mental and emotional anguish instead of physical. If someone thinks I'm way off please tell me, but I'm seeing as clearly as I have in a long time right now.

Abuse is abuse Marine. Just because you don't have a black eye doesn't mean you aren't a victim of abuse just like a battered wife. Emotional and mental abuse leave invisible marks, but they are just as damaging as being physically abused.

I think you're seeing it clearly for maybe the first time. And I think the only way it ends is you leaving this toxic stew.

I know how scary divorce is. It's terrifying to contemplate. I was scared too, believe me. But I can tell you that life on the other side is so sweet. It's calm and peaceful and predictable and filled with people who love and care for you like you deserve.

Plus I can tell you that I've heard a LOT of people say they regretted staying with a cheater, but I don't think I've ever heard someone say they regretted leaving one. Just food for thought.

Let me try to respond a bit:

MIgander, it's a long convoluted story like so many of these things are, but I'm not actually "class of '19". I am and just didn't fully know it. I caught WW in the beginnings of the affair in '19 and she successfully pulled the wool over my eyes for a long time. We came to the brink of divorce, but then things got better. I made a post on here and deleted it scared to death she would find it and I'd be ruining my marriage on a lot of just bad looking stuff when she wasn't actually cheating. But of course, she was. I caught a ton of stuff over the next few years, but she always managed to lie her way out of it and I was a fool so I would always be convinced enough. I sincerely thought she may be in an EA or be too close to someone, but never could imagine she could sleep with another man and then come home and hug me and talk about our days. I underestimated her compartmentalization skills. I was a fool. So didn't have a full-fledged confession and DDay until march of 22. Thought we were in R, and then found her back with him (and sexting another man as well) in October of 22. Also found out about a multi year running drug addiction. She was hospitalized for a suicide threat and addiction treatment, and she convinced me to stay. Then another video came out that my daughter had recorded off her phone in February 23 where she was sexting the primary 3 year AP. She made up a story about stopping her medications cold and making up the entire thing to "set me free" and some part of me even believed that may be possible. Saw the rest of that video this morning and she completely freaked out, ripped the phone out of my hand, and I only saw like two other lines of it. Also found this morning that she had unblocked AP's cell phone number from her phone, but she has no idea how that happened. So that's the high level backstory. I do not have an IC. She does. We're also not in MC because I just don't want to and finances and such.

SoulSister and bluer, thank you for the encouragement. I'm moving out. I hate it. It's the most painful thing imaginable. Feels like sawing my soul in half. But a good friend is letting me stay in his camper with good lights and water for free for the time being. I've discussed it with my lawyer and he's assured me there's no risk of "abandonment" being successfully used against me in court. We're drafting a separation agreement to give the 12 months required before filing for divorce. I don't have grounds for at fault because I've slept with her multiple times and lived with her as her husband since her last KNOWN and PROVABLE contact with AP. Not looking forward to living in a camper. Not looking forward to any of this. But it's only a year, and maybe something else comes up before that. During that year I have to still pay the mortgage and lights and water and keep food in my old house and all that. Once we get everything divied up and finalized, that will stop and I'll just be cutting a check once a month and she does whatever she does. We still don't know who's going to want to stay in the house long term, but one of us will and will pay out the equity to the other. If I'm the one leaving, that's my money to get established in something better than a camper.

WhiteCarrera, very good analogy. That's the crux of this morning too. She was "protecting me" from seeing the rest of the video and what was said. And the one line I saw WAS gut wrenching and horrible and explicit. So yeah, but I've told her so many times that all I want is transparency. Protect me by not doing this stuff, not hiding it from me.

WaitedtooLong, thank you. It's good wisdom in what you're saying. I understand your frustration with me, I feel it too. My father feels it and expresses it to me regularly. I AM trying to believe there's better on the other side of all this, but it's so unclear right now. It's just pain on top of pain no matter what path you take.

Chamomile, I nearly teared up reading what you wrote and the empathy you conveyed. Thank you so much.

Dude, I wish you were correct. But you're not. If I've given that impression I didn't mean to. My WW is a great friend to me. She's a phenomenal wife on every level. Our sex life is beyond comprehension good. The way she treats me day in and day out is something I fear I'll never ever find again in life. That's why this is all so hard. If I was married to a cold woman with a dead bedroom and we lived as roommates, I don't think this would be as hard. She really is doing everything imaginable on the surface to try to make R work. But there's these moments, and she fails miserably. It's like it's all a show, and then the truth comes roaring out. And it's like she's two completely different people. She's a great wife, except the cheating on me and secret life part. And that's why I see so much of myself in her battered friend. She'd say he's a great guy so much of the time, except when he's kicking her ass. But that's a huge huge thing. It's a dealbreaker. Just like living in infidelity is. But that's the part that's so incredibly tough is that I do realize the potential of my WW and what I'm losing if she would ever just be transparent and safe and faithful. But she won't. Hasn't yet.

Please keep interacting. I appreciate everyone. I'm pretty low right now, and some of this is like water in an oasis. I appreciate you all and send love your way.

Thank you so much EllieK. Hearing someone say how much hope there is on the other side while acknowledging how painful and terrifying it is to get there is validating. Thank you.

Marine, I’ve always felt an affinity to your story. Not because our spouses or their affairs are similar; they’re very different.

But because we got together very young, and there’s so much phenomenal history of Supporting each other through trauma, and through experiences that are out of the norm and that others wouldn’t understand. Crazy good friendship; wonderful sex. So much solid day to day partnering where he’s been there for me year in and out. A relationship that IS my life, such that dumping it would literally feel like ripping off a limb.

From my limited experience (and who knows, maybe I’m wrong), betrayal and cheating and lying—or any form of abuse—combined with a relationship like that is somewhat out of the norm, and it’s so fucking impossible to wrap your head around. It’s a mind and life fuck of impossibly devastating proportions.

I don’t like comparing stories—your wife’s betrayal is of a different kind than my husband’s. It’s so much longer and deeper, her issues are bigger and more troubling, her blindness and selfishness so staggering . . .

But I’ve seen my own feelings in some of your posts—the horrible pain and fear and despair that comes with the thought of giving up a relationship like that. It’s not about kids or sunk cost or convincing yourself that the good you saw in your relationship was a fiction of your own invention. It’s about realizing that something really awful coexisted with that good, and eclipsed it.

For myself, the eclipse was short lived, and the good is prevailing. But as fucking unfair as it is, I don’t think that’s the case for you. You are on the right path. She is the gangrenous limb that will kill you emotionally if you don’t amputate it.

Im the one sounding hyperbolic now. Be that as it may, I DO think your insight is a lightbulb moment. It’s clarity. Follow it.

[This message edited by Grieving at 1:34 AM, Saturday, April 22nd]

I’m sorry to hear all that marine.

She’s still actively wayward then. Despite the IC, it sounds like she’s done very little to unravel the Gordon’s knot this all is. Time to draw the sword and cut it.

Have you ever heard of borderline personality? It’s a step below narcissistic personality disorder. I’m wondering if something g like that may be gong on there. Addiction is all part and parcel.

Either way, just because she’s sick in the head doesn’t mean you have to keep allowing her to abuse you. You’re doing the right thing and getting out.

Grieving, Thank you. Thank you. Yes, it feels so insane. You nailed it on the head. I'm not staying for kids. I'm not staying for sunk cost fallacy. It really is impossible to believe that she's these two people. And that's in part why I keep wanting to believe every lie, because the truth that she really is two people like this is just unbelievable. But all the evidence objectively points right to her being two people, and the evidence just continues to mount. I listen to my buddies talk about their marriages and the issues they have in their marriages, and I think, "God I have it awesome." And that's universal with all my friends when they talk about their marriage. Even the good they describe, I think, "but that's just standard, right". AND I'M THE ONE IN THE CONVERSATIONS WITH A WS! It's just impossible to describe the complete mind fuck of these two realities you exist in and with. There's nothing stale in our marriage. It's passionate. It's intensely passionate. It's intensely high and deep love and connection, even after 20 years of marriage and 4 children who vary between adults and young teens. We've been through it all. All the things that are supposed to make marriage kind of settle and plataeu and love grow a bit colder, none of that happened. Except she cheats on me, and seems completely unwilling to stop. And that's just such a tragedy to have something so good you're throwing out that you feel like could be fixed if she'd just... But you can't control another person. And at this point, I've come to sincerely believe part of the reason our marriage is what it is is because that's just how she loves. And I think she loves two men. She'll do whatever it takes to keep both. And I just can't be one of two. But thank you so much for your reply. You really hit it on the head. I feel like a psycho path trying to put it into words, and it's awesome to read someone describing how they "get it".

MIgander, That's the same conclusion I've arrived at. And yes, she sees a psychiatrist weekly and they've wavered between BPD and bi-polar and are still tinkering with medications to try to get it all right. She claims they made her feel completely insane, and then she cold turkeyed off of them and went absolutely insane and that's the state of mind she was in when she made up this whole IG conversation with two accounts she has to make it look like she was in contact again with AP and "set me free" because she couldn't actually do it herself and needed me to cut the knot, so to speak. Then when she got back on the meds again she regained her mind and realized she desperately didn't want to do that. It's all a giant convoluted mess that's impossible to wrap my brain around.

Man, your story is difficult to read and has a very emotionally draining experience. I don't know how you are living this story. I just want to come and hug you, brother. Want to give you all the strength you need. Seeing your wife in two extremely different persona itself is a very painfuly confusing thing. The inner child in you is extremely confused and in pain. It's like a parent loving and pampering her child at one moment and beating the living shit out of it at another moment for no reason. You can only imagine the horror and confusion this child is experiencing. Romance, friendship, etc are needed for your inner adult, but love, empathy, care, and protection are needed for your inner child. She has kept your inner adult satisfied with strong friendship and passionate romance but has abused your inner child all this time. Your inner adult was oblivious to it, and that's why you were stuck in this loop. Only now, your inner adult has realized the abuse your inner child was experiencing at your wife's hands. Now, you want to protect your inner child. This is where you escape this toxic reality and start healing. Good luck to you. I will pray for you.

This is a really deep post, Marine.

Battered women continue to be battered because they’ve been told they deserve it and gradually they come to believe it. They are disempowered through attrition.

Codependency is not a word I like to bandy about, as it becomes just another thing to beat up a victim with, so can be equally disempowering rather than enlightening, but nevertheless, sometimes it’s a prism it’s worth looking through and with one partner with a psychiatric condition, it’s doubly worth auditing for it. Living with two different people in the one person in a highly unpredictable environment, is very hard, crazy making and exhausting, you end up becoming too other focused, watching in hyper vigilance, sometimes even your system becomes a little addicted to the drama because it feels normal. And you can misconstrue all that drama as passion.

The meds will be numbing her out and she will be missing the extremities of feeling, the highs particularly, hence not sticking to her regime. I’m so glad you are detaching and choosing self care now. There needs to be one healthy and fit parent.

I think you're going through a time of transition, 1345marine.

I read your posts as follows: You're experiencing abuse and you're saying, 'No more,' but you still have deep-seated memories of the good times. You're aware of the giant losses - but you're becoming aware of the even more gigantic losses you'll have to experience if you stay.

Is that an accurate reading?

If so - and probably if not, too - you're on the path to healing yourself, and that will be helpful to your kids and possibly even to your W. By pulling yourself out of the toxic home life, however, you're giving your youngsters good parenting from at least one good parent; if you stay enmeshed, there's little hope of that. Whether your kids are devastated or not (they probably are), they can start healing now; that's less likely if you stay.

I'm guessing that 'marine' means USMC. My belief has always been marines are trained to use initiative to get out of bad sitches. It often takes a lot of time to figure out a good way out. It's often necessary to take a lot of loss in finding good ways out. But you're on your way. I know it's painful - but I think you'll find out it's less painful than staying in the lousy sitch. As far as your kids go, you're putting your own oxygen mask on first.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 7:18 PM, Saturday, April 22nd]

Lurkingsoul: I've never heard anyone use the expression of an inner adult, and certainly have never heard it contrasted to the inner child like you did. That's really something to think about. I deeply appreciate your prayers and the encouragement you offered, it felt like a hug through a computer screen. But as I read what you have written, man it sounds like you're just so dead on right with the idea that my WW meets so many needs of my "inner adult" and is battering so many of those primal needs of an "inner child". That's a huge part of what's making everything so difficult, always hoping she can change and stop lying and keeping secrets to protect whatever she's doing behind my back. I keep hoping for an "all cards on the table, no more TT or half-truths or secrets, I desperately want a clean slate and here it is..." from her, and I have just become convinced it's not coming. That commitment to transparency and truth just will not ever be there, and she'll keep trying to feed that inner adult in order to avoid having to give up her secret life that brings her happiness. And I guess there's that deep fear that I'll never find another woman who does as much to nurture and please that inner adult like she does. I'm going to think on this a while since it's a brand new concept to me. Thank you. Very insightful and thought provoking.

Edie: Also an very thought provoking reply and I appreciate it greatly. I think you're right that in some way I'm addicted to the drama. Maybe that's not exactly it, but more like I know it's coming and I just want to go ahead and get it over with. I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop, so to speak, and I just want truth whatever it is. Little leaks always seem to happen when she has so many secrets going on, and I'm always just waiting for the next leak to spring out and come into light. And I think codepency is a real problem I have as well. That makes a lot of sense to me. What's interesting is if you were to ask my WW, I'm certain she would say it's as if she's living with two different men as well (I mean two me's, not me and AP is suspect very strongly she's still involved with). And I know that's hard on her. I try to have hope, and then I rage out or just go silent in pain. Raging out results in harsh words, divorce talk, etc. I often wonder, "what if I'm wrong" and she's actually given up the AP? What if, somehow, all her stories are ACTUALLY true, as far fetched as they seem? I don't think that's the case, as there's just too much evidence that piles up and I know she'll lie and lie and lie, even when caught red handed. But if she were sincerely trying, I'd be a difficult man to deal with. I'm always suspicious, and I can go from content and happy with her to suddenly images of her and him just assault me and I go ice cold. I'm on a roller coaster, and if she is being sincere and trying to reconcile, then she's on it with me. I don't know, I'm just kind of thinking aloud and rambling. Regardless, she did create it. She through me onto this roller coaster. I didn't ask to get on it. But I also wish I had handled some things differently over the past year.

Sisoon: yes, it's USMC. I am an Operation Phantom Fury vet who was a combat engineer (Heavy Equipment, thus the 1345) attached to 3rd Batallion, First marines. Joined when I was 17, turned 18 at PI. Was a Lance Corporal and a Corporal twice, lol. Younger me's mouth got me into a bit of trouble with senior staff NCO's, and I wound up getting out only ever reaching E4. But I reached it twice damnit, lol. I appreciate your kind words, and yes I think you're reading it accurately. My children are one thing that have me questioning a lot. I sincerely don't know what I believe. I don't know if they're better off if I keep trying to persevere with their mother, or if they're better off if I go and become a happier and more whole man as a Father for them. I guess the best would be to find a way to stay married and fix the marriage and become that whole and happy man with my wife, their mom. But I've been trying that for a long time, and it's just not working, and a lot of that is out of my control. I've become convinced I can't make her not cheat. That's just not possible. I can't control her. But I still wrestle constantly with what's best for my children. And since I sincerely don't know it's a bit paralyzing. I try to think, "what's best for them now? What about a year from now? What about ten years from now? What do those futures look like?" And it's just too many variables to really know with any clarity what happens on either path. My older two kids are doing terribly. My 18 year old son I sincerely want to be locked up because he's on a path that I'm certain will kill him (drugs and violence) eventually. I had a couple of friends in high school who got into some of the same type stuff he's on, and it took a jail stint to clean them up and wake them up. At least I'd know he was safe if he got locked up (I don't even know where he is right now). And that's the other part of this equation with WW. I feel like with all the difficulties with our children now, we could be ok even in the midst of the storms if our marriage was safe and healthy. But it's not. I just desperately wish that if we have to face these difficulties and trials with our now grown or close to it children, we were able to do it as a team and supporting and loving one another through it.