SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Quite honestly I'm a bit shocked this thread had generated the interest and responses that it has. I'm really pleased that it has been such a great discussion.

I've mostly lurked and posted some here and there. I came to SI one year after discovering my ex's affair. I had done a lot of healing but was not anywhere near healed.

So in essence I'm not known well round these here parts partially because I didn't start off in JFO and build a bond with others in the traumatic after math of dday.

I most read here in General and Wayward to gain perspective and further my understanding but in all my reading here this was just not something I had seen addressed.

Obviously most want to reconcile that are here as I did initially. Many who divorce do so because their WS's just couldn't get it together enough to mend the situation, or stop lying etc.

But I thought there have to be others out there who are feeling this way. Wincing at light, I believe, made a comment that in real life he didn't know too many who had really recovered from the infidelity even if they stayed together. I'm seeing the same evidence.

I do not doubt that some here have really recovered their marriages and find love and joy in that connection. But I was betting that many were also saying "is that all there is?" "is this enough for the rest of my life?" am I delusional to want what I once had? or was that a *fantasy* too?"

I used to believe that reconciliation was a much greater possibility than it probably actually is. Just like many more BS's try to recover their marriages than would be imagined in the after math.

In my cynicism, I've come to pretty much believe, that unless you have a lot of years invested and there are children, there is no reasonable reason to try to reconcile. This has happened to me twice now. Once when I was younger (27) and my gf was remorseful and recently (37).

I'm almost 40 now. I will never ever try to reconcile this with my life again. You see my shot at building a life with someone first and then having kids is most very likely over. & I feel this option has been stolen from me in effect. I have never been able to shake the feeling that I deserved so much better than my two ex's. And I can't change that.

I may have been changed by all of this and in my heart I will always know what it is to be a BS but I will never live with infidelity again. I cannot imagine spending the rest of my days looking at someone who has done this. I honestly would rather die alone because love under those conditions is not worth it to me any longer. There is also no one to consider in my decisions but myself.

Many of you whether you realized it or not confirmed my suspicions that reconciliation often means living with something that pales to what once was even if now you have a truthful marriage and a handle on who your spouse *really* is.

unless there are children, there is no reasonable reason to try to reconcile. This has happened to me twice now.

how true-if it weren't for the kids there would be no trying to R at all for me, but kids sure toss a wrench into things.

"Irish" you got that right. Next time it happens there will be no drama at all. NO words spoken, no anger, no feelings at all.

The only drama that will take place is that of him receiving the divorce papers at work and never thinking that I could actually go through with it.

Let's hope it doens't get to this point, but if it does, there will be no looking back this time.

The deeper issue here is about love vs. attachment. Most of us marry because we want to love and be loved in return.

When a WS is engaged in an A, they have already left their BS. Physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually---they have deserted the spouse. They may sleep in the same bed, bring home a paycheck, do things around the house, but in effect, they are "already gone". They are still "attached" but love is not there. On a deep level, the BS knows this.

R is often a process of strengthening the attachment, and that can be done. But resurrecting love if it has died.....or was never really there? It's a necessary lesson for every adult---recognizing what is and isn't love.

Blessings,

Firewalker

Firewalker....that is THE BEST post yet on this subject. It is exatcly what happens. Exactly.

So consequently, when the line is crossed and the affair ensues, it is more or less the beginning of the end no matter how you look at it. This is why I firmly believe that there is nothing special anymore that a WS can do for a BS. It was already done for the ow. The surpreme sacrifice was already made when the WS put the op in front of everything that truly meant anything. The bullet was already taken for the op, not the BS.

No words could sum it up better thatn what you have just said.

This has been some of the most enlightening information. I knew I craved others thoughts regarding this topic, but never knew so many people felt so similar.

I am 3 years, 2 months out, and for the last several months I have wondered why I tried so hard to reconcile and make everything okay with and for my WH.

So many days, I roll my eyes in disgust, talk to myself about him (out loud as a matter of fact), and think "Is this really what I want?" I am just gaining my strength to realize that I might possibly not need this in my life...with or without him.

I remember quite well when I tried to reconcile with my gf in my late 20's. The devistation from her cheating was horrendous.

It was still the honeymoon part of our relationship. Her issues with self esteem and FOO stuff was what crippled our R. I started off as the high functioning one in the relationship and quickly became the underfunctioning one after her affair. I felt like she had given some part of me away and some part of my love which had been the most giving and genuine love of my life. She hit me where I was most vulnerable. I felt I was always trying to help her find her way to the best in her while she was trying to dismantle me. She succeeded.

She honestly wasn't unhappy with me she was unhappy with herself. But you know in the two years we had together after that I could feel my respect was gone, some part of my loyalty diminished. She began emotionally abusing me after dday. And I in turn talked about our relationship to others because I no longer felt safe enough with her understandably. I never went out on her though, it never crossed my mind.

I still was in love with her but not like I was before dday. I grieved our relationship as it had been in fact in some ways I'm still not over it 12 years later. I sometimes still imagine what my life could have been if she had been whole enough to create with me what I know I'm capable of.

I've already paid horribly.. why pay further.. to what end?

There is no point in it. I can no longer understand why I tried to reconcile at all with the second cheater which is why I'm so grateful she ran off to be the OW for a year and half. She ultimately saved me even more grief.

On a deep level, the BS knows this.

funny how I knew in my gut the A was going on, I even read the "signs of a cheating spouse" one day on the net, sure enough WW scored 100%. I knew even then WW would just lie about it, so I never brought it up,just bided my time until I could catch her red-handed(which I did) then she still denied it at first, of course. Now as I look back, I realize I should have taped conversations or got pics of them together & divorced her ASAP on grounds of adultery. But right after dday I couldn't bear the thought of leaving-I loved her-now months later it seems all I think about is how to get out. Sure would have been easier back then.

Just wondering how many people in this thread never say "I love you" anymore, or don't wear their wedding rings.

Well, I've been separated since DDday 1, over two years ago, and although I've considered attempting R a few times, which is NOT going to happen, I took my rings off on Dday and have never put them back on. I highly doubt I would even if I were in R.

Although I rarely talk to STBX anymore, I have said "I love you" now and then. Because I do.

I am not sure if I am glad I read this thread or not. It is by far the post that has touched me the most in all the years I have been reading here. For years I have wondered if it was "just me"...was something wrong with me? Even now when FWH is bending over backwards, it is not there for me. If I could turn back the clock to four years ago(OMG!!! It has been four years!), I would D and not look back. But now, with kids who are even more aware of what is going on, more debt, more time invested, I just feel like that option is not there for me anymore...that door has been shut. What I felt for him is gone forever no matter what happens. I have tried to tell him this but he still insists that "with time" we can have a better marriage.

I am beginning to accept, especially after reading this thread, that perhaps this IS all there is. Now I just have to figure out if that is something I can live with.

My FWH are in R now, coming up on anti~versary #1 very soon. Even tho things are going well now, I wonder- wether or not I'll still be here a few years down the road. It's very difficult to ge over such betrayal. I guess it depends on how much he shows me he wants this to work and if 'we' can change for the better...

I'll put this out here again because I do think it is a worthy consideration.

I think many BSs in the face of infidelity feel they have the right to choose whether to recommit or not - and there is no judgement in that nor do I think it would have any merit to discuss that entitlement.

But what I do question as the problem is if that "right" is not eventually surrendered - as in, either sh*t or get off the pot - then does that not within itself create a virtually impossible if not, at the least, unfulfilling reconcilation?

I wonder if just by always having that optional out that we allow ourselves to never really make a commitment again to the marriage. If you believe that love is as much what you give as what you receive then one certainly would have to question how that lack of commitment would play a factor.

I'd like to also point out that studies suggest that the reason why most people have an affair isn't because of what they are not getting from the relationship...it's because of what they are not giving TO the relationship. Without that outward focus, the commitment is not present. It's more or less an attitude of what are you doing (or not doing) for me. And is that not the very same thought that allowed our WSs to make such a decision to disreagard the marital commitment?

I know this is not a popular opinion but I think it does have merit...if for nothing more than the consideration as part of the discussion.

[This message edited by truthsetmefree at 9:43 PM, August 7th (Thursday)]

I agree with the consideration that I'm not getting out of the marriage what I want or need because I'm not giving what I need to give.

Fact is..I'm 4 years out and have been unable to give what he need because of the A. Despite MC, IC part of me is frozen to him. I cannot blindly recommit no matter how devoted he is or appears to be. It's a vicious cycle.

I cannot love him or give him what he deserves as my husband. Does he deserve it? If I continue to accept him as my husband, yes he does have that right.

Prior to the A, he didn't get what he needed because he didn't give. He hasn't given me what I need to recover. Becauses I'm not recovered. Is that his fault?

I don't know. Maybe it was never recoverable, and it's taken me 4 years to realize that I'm in a dead..on my part, relationship.

I'm not angry anymore. I admit to wanting to bitchslap the OW when I see her (which is often), but hey..we all have to have a hobby.

Mostly I'm sad..especially for my kids.

Do I still love him? Yes...but not the way I shoudl or the way either of us needs to survive this.

Do I love myself? No, but I want to. I've been unable to do that in this relationship. Staying makes me feel small.

This is by far the best thread I've EVER read on SI. It keeps drawing me back like a moth to a flame.

Not sure if I'm making any sense, but I wonder how many BS know deep down, on Dday, if infidelity is a dealbreaker or not. But because of the emotions surrounding Dday, they are incapable of making such a life changing decision, but ultimately it resurfaces, often years into reconciliation.

Makes PERFECT sense to me, mom. I think I felt this all along really. After the initial paralyzation...I just hoped HIS experience would be the catalyst to become the man everyone else knew him to be. I hoped he could/would create something to stay for...something that would have made it all worth it.

Still living the fairy tale? I guess that still remains to be seen for me.

I agree with numb...

They will at some point come to realize that to stay in the M, they will have to settle, or compromise with themselves to accept the new version.

For some, the new version may be an overall improvement.

For others, it will have to be settling for a version that has been watered-down from the innocence and noble potential it once held for them.

I know this is going to get flack from the "create your own happiness" folks (and I'm not knocking them...I've BEEN them, right Skye???)--but it really is true. The innocence is lost, and you do settle for that. He gave part of himself and our marriage away...GAVE IT AWAY!...and so also gave away part of me that isn't coming back. I may fill it with something else...but that innocent love and "familiarity" with my husband is gone. Whether the marriage becomes better or not...I am settling for that because I valued it.

I think some people realize all of this after their paralyzation has passed...and they don't want to try anymore to repair the marriage after all. So they go. And you know--they did give it the best they could. They tried as best as they could. They stayed because they needed to at the time.

Question is: Is the devil you know better? Do you have a better chance at your recovery/your relationship with someone who lived this with you? Who saw what happened to you? Because how do you describe that to someone? How do you really tell a person who still has the innocence what infidelity does to someone?

Truthie said:

However as time progresses, perhaps we stop discussing our feelings. We hate to ruin the moment or we feel like we have already discussed this. So instead we try to either deal with it on our own or we try to push it away..deny that this is what we are really feeling. We look at the good, try to put a higher value on that, and move on. We wonder what is wrong with us...why we aren't happier now...or if we are just permenantly broken...and we quit talking. WSs think everything is fine and we begin to fade into the background in our marriages.

Until one day we just feel like we cannot accept this anymore. Because we haven't been talking, because we have been fading into the background, we no longer can really identify the problem. All we know is that it started on d-day and has just "never been the same since then". We figure that we are just one of those that can't get over it.

This hurts to read because this is exactly how it is...you just stop talking--even if that's not who you are. Why bother? Why f**k up the day? Why say anything because it doesn't get a satisfying response? And it's "fine" anyway...everything is "fine", right?

So you close down...close off.

Perhaps there is another way to go about this....a way that those few of us who have successfully R. and claim that it ALL truly is better now understand. You know the ones....we hear them and we truly believe them. We just don't know HOW they managed to do that.

Maybe the answer (or the avoidance of the problem) is in the continuing to talk about it. Maybe infidelity is something that you never "get over" but instead something that you agree to now face together - for the rest of your life.

I think this is right on the mark, truth. It's hard to do with an emotionally unavailable man--one that doesn't believe the day is a good day BECAUSE "the affair" was brought up. It only gets bad if it's handled with more avoidance--when there isn't a feeling of openness.

Syzy--amazing thread. Thank you.

Do I love myself? No, but I want to. I've been unable to do that in this relationship. Staying makes me feel small.

Ugh--see??? This is it! What an affair takes from a BS.

Right...On...The...Nose.

wow!!! great inisghts all around.

being a newby to R (1 1/2 month of false R) 2 weeks in new R. 5 1/2 months out from d-day. i can honeslty say that divorce was my first option...after 3 mos of separation i became frightened about the ramifications of a divorce: financially, emotionally and then my 15 yr. old family stability blah blah blah...

i go to sleep most nights thinking in 3 years my daughetr will be done w HS and i will move on...then i fall asleep (mostly calm)

[This message edited by foralways at 11:07 PM, August 7th (Thursday)]

Some of this is really hard to read, like a punch in the gut, I guess. For me, the two mths after D-day, I did think that "we" would be okay. I loved him and was committed to making it work. Then, something switched in my head and I began to realise how horrible it was. I found SI and realised that there was also an EA.....and how an A starts, the slippery slope, etc. It all became too real for me. That's when the anger started too. We are now S and I don't see the M surviving. It's like Syzy said, living with something that is a shadow of what used to be. EXACTLY. I will NEVER trust my H again, ever. I hate to use the word never but, I really don't see that happening.

It all comes down to the fact that he didn't respect me, or the life we have together, when he took his pants off. Or even when he flirted.....and let it lead to everything else. We all know it doesn't happen overnight, and he had lots of opportunity to "not go there." The fact that he figured it would never hurt me because I would never find out infuriates me! Did he ever think that it would hurt him? He is the one who has to live with himself.

I hate that it's the BS who essentially decides the fate of the M. Not in all cases, I know. But if I decided to R, we would R in a second. I just cannot bring myself to do it. I feel that the damage is too great.

Do I spend my next 40 years with this man or do I chance it with someone new? I would rather take a chance. I feel like my H blew his chance. The hurt is too big. I hate that this happened and I never expected to live the rest of my life without him but, for me, R is just not worth it. The M obviously wasn't worth it to him for 6 months, either. Even though he loved me through it all, did he really? Can you really genuinely love someone while you are carrying on an A?? I don't think that I can ever genuinely love someone who is capable of such a thing, no matter what changes he makes or how remorseful he is. Too little, too late.

I hate that my M is going to be a D statistic. But what better reason for D than infidelity?? I say that to my H all the time.

I can see & respect the perspectives of the BSs in this post. I was once a BS, too.

I do believe that something is lost forever as a result of an A. But do you think that you can really get "it" back if you move on to another relationship? If we are talking about STATISTICS... I know the success rates for second and subsequent marriages are much less than for first marriages.

I know As are so very damaging, and I know they are the "outward symptom" of a problem. To me- that means that up until the WS CHOSE to betray their spouse- there was a problem that existed that both shared. Does that excuse the WS? No way. They are to blame for that choice, and the action can never be taken back. But the truth remains: there are problems present BEFORE the A. Those problems are the responsibility to both people. For those of you that say you just want to take a chance on a new relationship... there will still be problems, right? I have read from some of you that you have been in more than one "cheating" relationships. Do you think that is a coincidence?

Again- I am not trying to be disrespectful or adversarial... but the question was about statistics...

But what I do question as the problem is if that "right" is not eventually surrendered - as in, either sh*t or get off the pot - then does that not within itself create a virtually impossible if not, at the least, unfulfilling reconciliation?

Oh my god yes and yet how does one fully surrender that right again? This is the breach I'm not sure can be overcome by some people including myself.

I'd like to also point out that studies suggest that the reason why most people have an affair isn't because of what they are not getting from the relationship...it's because of what they are not giving TO the relationship. Without that outward focus, the commitment is not present. It's more or less an attitude of what are you doing (or not doing) for me. And is that not the very same thought that allowed our WSs to make such a decision to disregard the marital commitment?

Which is one terrible reason I think some Bs's become Ws's. As contrary to logic as it may seem, some BS's are more, not less, likely to cheat after being cheated on themselves whether in the same relationship or in a different one. I think the damage is severe enough to alter one's sense of self to the point that they may become susceptible to the very behaviours they once abhorred. This by no way negates responsibility it is merely an observation and reiteration of something I read in statistics on infidelity.

My recent Ws is a BS (at 25) turned two time WS/OW (at 38 and 47).

I agree with the consideration that I'm not getting out of the marriage what I want or need because I'm not giving what I need to give.

Fact is..I'm 4 years out and have been unable to give what he need because of the A...

I cannot love him or give him what he deserves as my husband. Does he deserve it?...

Do I still love him? Yes...but not the way I should or the way either of us needs to survive this.

Do I love myself? No, but I want to. I've been unable to do that in this relationship. Staying makes me feel small.

My god TW I could have written this about my first gf/fiance that cheated on me. It is overwhelming.

They will at some point come to realize that to stay in the M, they will have to settle, or compromise with themselves to accept the new version.

For some, the new version may be an overall improvement.

For others, it will have to be settling for a version that has been watered-down from the innocence and noble potential it once held for them.

This is what my only reconciliation was like. It was devastating. I missed loving her like I used to. There was a time I would have put my life on the line to keep her safe and whole and I knew that as much as I loved her I could no longer do that.

As far as love goes I have never again felt like I would put my life on the line and my loyalty without question.

It was a knowledge I never knew how to overcome.

I could continue to give my fidelity (sexually) without question but I had even begun having sexual dreams about other people (just fictitious made up people) which happens sometimes but in these dreams I was aware we were together and I still wanted to be with these people. shitty feeling.

But my emotional loyalty was shattered. I could not nor would I protect her from all the awful shitty things people said about her. hell she deserved them. I could no longer defend her character. It would have been a lie to do so.

It felt so bad to be with someone who didn't deserve protecting because the other people were RIGHT. I cannot live like that. I HAVE to believe in the person I'm with and think they are deserving of that belief.

Once my gf broke her loyalty to me through infidelity and emotional abuse I never felt loyal to her again in my heart. I never got it back, I loved her terribly still but it was a love without trust.

There is a song by massive attack called protection that summed it up so well

I stand in front of you

Who says that's not the way it should be

I could no longer be that person... I could no longer take the force of the blow, I no longer could protect her. If it came down to her and me I would sacrifice her.

__________________

edit to add: Incomplete I agree the statistics are bad on second marriages but sometimes you don't have a choice with infidelity, either they leave or the WS has killed it.

Gaslighting is a form of abuse. Plain and simple. While cheating is just cruel.

I don't really believe I am drawn to cheaters I just think a lot of people cheat. Particularly if they are repeat offenders many more people are going to be cheated on than there are cheaters. Unless of course you stay married to the serial cheater in which case you are taking one for the team. Again. And Again. And Again.

Either way is a crap shoot whether you reconcile or you strike out in the hopes that you don't face this again.

But while the stats are poor-er on second marriages what about the recidivism rate of cheaters? How many people in Recon/divorce & separation are dealing with more than one OM/OW? or five or ten years later another affair. My recent ex has cheated twice 10 years apart two different marriages to which she was the Ow. Her AP has cheated twice in her marriage 15 years apart.

I think as much as we may not want to admit it one's chances of not being cheated on again probably are better with someone else. But THAT in and of itself does not guarantee a successful marriage because they aren't mutually exclusive.

[This message edited by Syzy at 2:10 AM, August 8th (Friday)]