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burntashes, I've been following your threads but haven't chimed in because others have been saying what I'm thinking far better than I could. But I have to chime in now.

Your husband is fucking with your head. Based on what you've posted, he's been doing this for a long time. Maybe not to this extreme, but the belittling, the name-calling, the slapping - it's the same pattern of behaviour. It's not healthy for you. It's not healthy for your daughter.

I am a BS. I believe that after D-day, it is incumbent on a WS to do whatever it takes to make amends if s/he wants to heal the relationship. But here's the thing: The BS has to *want* amends to be made; s/he has to *want* the relationship to be healed.

Your husband doesn't want you to make amends. He doesn't want you to work together with him to heal the relationship. He wants, instead, to be a perpetual victim; to be able to forever use your A as a justification for whatever twisted behaviour he feels like engaging in, holding your A over you like a sword of Damocles. Just like before your D-day, when he called you names or belittled you or slapped you - and always, he said it was your fault...because he loved you so much...because he was frustrated that you didn't understand something.

Your A makes it easier for your husband to continue to engage in these devastating behaviours, because it's a convenient go-to justification - "I loved you so much and you hurt me so badly, so I'm going to do <whatever> and you can't complain because it's *your* fault" - but it was NEVER your fault.

Your husband belittled you and called you names because he is abusive. Your husband slapped you because he is abusive. Your husband fucks other women and tells you about it because he is abusive. If you hadn't had an A, he'd find another reason to do these things - just like the reasons he had before your D-day. It has nothing to do with love, or hurt, or your having betrayed him. It is about control. If he can get you to believe you are responsible for his behaviour, he can do whatever he wants with impunity. And so far it's been working.

Please stop letting him do this to you.

As a BS, I've been terribly hurt by my FWH. Sometimes I still hate him for what he did to me. Sometimes I want to wring his neck. Sometimes I want to never see him again. That is the depth of my hurt. I am telling you this so that you understand what my position is when I say to you: No matter what you've done, you deserve so much better than this. Your daughter deserves better than this.

Please get out of there. Don't tell him you're going to do it; don't apologize; don't try to be nice or smooth things over. Just get your ducks in a row and go.

He is not going to change. No matter what you do, you can't fix this - because he doesn't *want* this to be fixed. You can apologize until you're out of breath; you can bend over backward to make amends to him; it's not going to make a difference.

Please. If not for yourself, do it for your daughter.

This whole situation makes me so sad. But the only thing that comes to mind is "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." Nobody is capable of making a change until they truly want to make a change.

One thing you might want to consider is the effect of your enabling behavior on your husband.

It is pretty well documented that the longer a person acts in an abusive way the more damaging it is to their core personality. So, the longer you allow him to slap you, however lightly, or verbally chastise you, or belittle you or degrade himself with prostitutes without stating your objections, the more it is altering his personality and the more difficult it will be for him to change. And make no mistake, by staying in this situation when you have the means to get you means that you are allowing the behavior.

And, of course, the same goes for your daughter. The more of this she absorbs, the more normal she will believe it is and the more likely she will be to either accept such behavior from her future mates or to treat them this way. Would you be happy to see her lightly slap her future husband? Or to see her lightly slapped by him?

Which brings me to a question. You said you don't know much about relationships, but then you talk about your parents as though they are still together. What kind of relationship did they have?

Burnt...

Gently I am saying - not in a "we told you so" tone of voice - reread everything in this thread with the perspective you have now. The things we've all said may make more sense now.

You are going to be ok. You are a good person - we can see that. You will be happy again one day - with or without your husband.

It's time for you to let go. This is not the same as giving up. This is letting go of the future you thought you had with this man. You two may fix things. You may not. It takes both of you working hard to fix things. Nothing will ever get better unless he changes his actions. He likely will not change unless you give him a reason to do so. He may not even change then. And Burnt, if he won't change you have to get that poison out of your life.

Some people can't recover from an affair. And it really sounds like he wasn't that good to you before your affair. He has to want to fix things. Right now he doesn't.

Didn't you say he was your first real relationship partner?

I'll stop writing here and say just reread this thread. You'll be able to absorb more.

Let us know what you are ready to do. Are you ready to make your stand? We'll help you either way.

Burnt,

Two days ago I wrote a very desperate message titled "hopelessness" and you responded with a very thoughtful and lucid post that significantly impacted my mood, my ability to communicate with BGF, and my MC session yesterday. It wasn't until today that I realized that you are the person whose messages I had been reading in this thread, in this horrible and harmful situation. Others have told you how dangerous it is for you and your daughter. I want to tell you that you are clearly a strong and eloquent person with a rich inner life and strong sense of how people relate to one another. You have the strength and smarts to do what you want to do, independent of history, mindgames, etc. Basically I want to say: apply the same intelligence and generosity to yourself that you did to me. You deserve it.

Yours,

lost&scared

(((BA)))

Knowledge is power....

[This message edited by MissesJai at 9:57 AM, October 4th (Monday)]

I’m torn. BH said he feels like a chump because he was faithful when I cheated on him. He’s angry at all the lies I told him during my affair, and the TT for 3 months when he was going thru hellish pain. He said he wants to be able to be faithful to me, but he just can’t commit right now, that he doesn’t love me the way he used to. He gets angry that I insist both of us have to be committed to stay together as a family. He said I wasn’t during my A, and he’d be gone if it wasn’t for DD, and since he clearly told me our marriage is over, what he’s doing is not wrong at all because he’s not hiding it. He wants to explore his options out there to be sure if he wants to be committed to me again, and he’s not done exploring because he doesn’t feel that he wants to commit yet. He said I’m angry and jealous because I want to control him, that I could go have fun and then tell him he has to commit, that I threaten to take DD away from him at night because I can’t lose control. But I told him it’s not about my having control. What I did was very wrong, and he has the choice to leave me or stay, but he needs to make a choice. He said this is the way he finds out what he wants to decide to do. He makes me feel like I’m being a selfish jerk for asking him to be faithful to me. He tells me that I’m throwing away a chance of possible R with him when I insist that he can’t go out with other women, that he’s not looking for a serious relationship outside, that so far his exploring hasn’t led him to a decision to leave.

The more I think about it the more angry I get. I feel like I’m going to explode. I am going insane. Somebody please talk some sense into me, tell me that I am wrong. I’m so confused. I don’t want to throw away a chance to R with him. But it feels cruel, him intentionally continuing to leave the exploring as an option for himself when he thinks it would be unseemly for me to do the same with a four year old. I am starting to wonder if he is the same man I love in my mind. I don’t know if I want to stay in this marriage if he does decide to commit in the future. This bitter resentment is building up in me. I don’t want to be the cruel person to take DD away from him to live in a separate house, but this is killing me. He makes me feel like I am the only one having problems with this arrangement. He’s home with me every night, DD has both parents in the same house she can go to. That I’m making waves when things are going fine. Why do I feel this bad? I want to pull my hair out. Arrrgggghhh.

lost,

I'm glad my post was helpful to you. It's good to know that I can do something right after being told constantly that there's nothing to me. Thanks for the encouragement.

sweetie ~

He's still mind fucking you.

So, he makes the CHOICE to continually fuck other women, flaunt it in your face, and yet YOU are the one making waves when you speak your truth?? Bullshit. More bullshit by him. I realize you love him and there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to save your marriage.

He tells me that I’m throwing away a chance of possible R with him when I insist that he can’t go out with other women, that he’s not looking for a serious relationship outside

Again, more mind fucking. This is a control issue. There is no chance of R as long as he's out fucking other women. PERIOD. He's not even seriously considering it. What's his plan? To fuck as many women as he possibly can and then once he's done, whenever that is, or has an epiphany, whichever comes first, he then comes back to you? He EXPECTS you to tolerate his behavior. He EXPECTS you to put your life on hold, your needs on hold, your happiness on hold, for him. He EXPECTS you to be waiting for him no matter what he does, no matter who he does. You are his quintessential doormat and he's making sure shoes are clean.

so far his exploring hasn’t led him to a decision to leave.

it's leading him to fuck other women, though, that's for sure. I'm sorry if this is coming off harsh. I know you are hurting and my heart breaks for you. What your husband is putting you through is just plain cruel. Yes, you had an affair. Yes, you fucked up. But, you are still human, still have feelings and still deserve some respect. You have owned your shit, that is clear. Marriage is not supposed to a game of who can hurt the other more and based on what I'm reading, that's precisely what you're husband is doing - trying to "one up" you - nobody ever wins this game - it is always lose-lose....

You've needed "sense" talked into you when you were just accepting his behaviors. :)

When he says that you are ruining any chance of R by insisting he not see other women, he is wrong in every way.

You want to be the kind of mate that would be attractive to him, right? Would you be attracted to a weak, weepy, clingy doormat? (yes, many of us were exactly that.) You might be attracted to a strong, confident, person who was capable of taking care of themselves.

His behavior must change. It won't until you draw a line.

And just so you know, I always hope a couple reconciles. I hope you don't see my posts and those of others as anti-relationship at all. I'm all for understanding and forgiveness. But it takes two.

He tells me that I’m throwing away a chance of possible R with him when I insist that he can’t go out with other women

Big, giant pile of bulshit.

You screw up, it's not fair, nothing about it is fair but ir his in or out.

Please do not let him scare you and bully you, don't buy more bulshit, friend.

Close the bakery, now.

Just read the thread on General about a woman's 180 winning her H back. I'm the one that screw up first, but BH is definitely taking me for granted. I am seriously considering doing the 180. I've cried and cried for him but he seems quite happy being able to go out with other women whenenver he wants and still come home and have me whenever he wants. This is not sitting well with me. If A was wrong for me, and it was, what he's doing is wrong too.

I think that if you're not ready to leave him, the 180 is an excellent idea. Remember that is is not intended to win the errant spouse back, but rather to focus on YOURSELF and your own detachment/healing to begin to rebuild your life on your own terms whether your spouse comes around eventually or not.

Believe me, I understand the pull to stay in a relationship where your partner is treating you like shit. I've done it several times myself. But please realize: what he is doing is abhorrent and inexcusable. No ifs, ands, or buts.

180 is to rebuild your self.

I think you need it like fresh air.

Understanding the 180:

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=232785

yes, I did have myself tested and good thing it's nothing.

Not for long, honey. One in five has herpes. One in five chlamydia. I don't know the stats on HIV, other than it is on the rise in women and I am sure pretty high among prostitutes.

I do know what I accept directly teaches what DD thinks as acceptable. I will not tolerate abusive behavior from BH from now on.

Bullshit. You are weak and needy and cannot escape from this man. You are a doormat for his abuse. You think you love him, although he obviously hates you. Actually, I think

he just doesn't give a shit.

Your love is built on a fear of being without him. What wonderful qualities has this man demonstrated?

He tells me that I’m throwing away a chance of possible R with him when I insist that he can’t go out with other women, that he’s not looking for a serious relationship outside, that so far his exploring hasn’t led him to a decision to leave

.

It is so blatantly OBVIOUS that this is manipulation. Or as another poster said, mindfuck. It is so clear to us but you can't see it because of your guilt. He is using your A as an excuse to do whatever he wants. And I am betting this isn't the first time, either.

You told me you wouldn't talk to your parents about him because they don't like him? Hmmm, wonder why?

You have to find a support system now, because your despair is going to reach a critical level and we can't help you in person.

Tell your best friend. I beg you, I implore you to talk to her. Print out this thread and show her. Please, honey, you need someone close to you to hear this and help you.

Will you do this?

PS The 180 will never work with your man for reasons that are obvious.

Your love is built on a fear of being without him. What wonderful qualities has this man demonstrated?

He was faithful for 12 years until my A, and would never have gone out with other women if I hadn't strayed. He is an exceptional father and loves DD. He still holds me at night and tells me he loves me.

My love is built on all the great qualities in him: honesty, depth of thought on many topics, humor, values and honor. I am not afraid to live without him. Actually I fantasize about it sometimes when I wish to be away from all this pain. I am emotionally very in love with him. He's always been my best friend, the one I run to when I felt troubled. That's why it's so hard to contemplate leaving him. I feel very sad that my affair made him question the value of being faithful and true, because he feels it got him nothing but hurt in return.

I'm conflicted. He finds many things about me frustrating. He tells me there's not much to me, that my whole family is full of inefficient and incapable people, that I've always been a crappy mother to DD, that I don't know how to love. I know a lot of what he says is true, but it also makes me feel like I have no value. He said the marriage was built on me being faithful, and he tolerated all my shortcommings because he thought I was faithful. But now that it turns out I hadn't been, he doesn't know why he should remain faithful to me.

I feel that I need to be there for him. He obviously wants me to. But I don't know how to get him to stop "exploring". Sometimes I still question whether I have the right to, because my affair was so bad and I told him so many lies. One moment I want to leave and the next I want to stay. This morning I asked him "Can you not have sex with them?" I know, it's pathetic. He said he could probably manage not to, that he wouldn't go actively seek out opportunities to see the other woman. I think I'm emotionally dependant on him. I don't want to take DD away from him. I'll work on being more independent myself while being there. It's such a crappy situation for all of us.

I told my best friend. She said I've been extremely patient, that if it were her she would have left a long time ago. But she's a BS and her husband had an affair a long time ago. It's a different perspective. I would give both my arms to be a BS instead of a WS anyday.

Burnt,

You CANNOT make him do anything let alone "stop exploring."

Please, as suggested, reread this thread from beginning to end. Look at how many times someone has made an observation about your situation and then you've come back and posted a "you're right" response.

Yes. You fucked up. I'm a betrayed spouse whose marriage has ended, torn apart by years of neglect (by both of us), lie (from him) and infidelity (his). I am extremely sensitive to the plight of the BS. I tend to be more lenient and give more leeway in toward the behaviour of the BS than to the WS. And I'm telling you he's playing you and you're letting him. He is out of bounds.

Whether or not his behaviour now is a continuation of years of emotional abuse is actually irrelevant.

What matters right now is that he is putting your life at risk. Yes, that's right. Your life.

He is having sex with prostitutes. That means he is risking your health and your life - HPV, HIV, Hep B, Hep C, chlamydia, gonorrhea, syphilis, herpes ...

By your own admission he has made you party to his illegal activities. Yes, soliciting the services of a prostitute is illegal.

He is kind enough to keep you around and mean enough to hurt you deeply. Your daughter is seeing this.

Even if the split is not permanent you need to get away from him. You both need some time to get your heads cleared and screwed on straight.

I slapped my ex-husband once. He pushed me beyond the point of anger. I realize now he was trying to start the fight that would "end it" so that he could be with his OW. I felt so horrible for slapping him that I took 6 months of emotional abuse - that he viewed as appropriate punishment. Then I learned of the A - and still I kept taking his rubbish because I didn't want to lose my marriage.

I thought if I could hold on long enough I could "make" him see the light and make him want to stay.

It didn't work. We cannot make someone else do what they are unwilling, uninterested, or unable to do.

At this point your husband is, at the very least, unwilling to stop humiliating and degrading you. He is also very clearly not willing to stop risking your life and your health.

What happens, BA, if the very worst happens and he contracts HIV from a prostitute? What happens if he then transmits the infection to you? What becomes of your daughter then?

Sadly, so far, you have borne out everyone's predictions. You've come back with the exact defenses for your husband that everyone has said you would. And he has responded with exactly the responses predicted.

Think about that, BA. You keep telling us that your situation is different, that your husband is different.

If you were really so different then why have we, collectively, been able to tell you what you both would do?

[This message edited by SouthernGal at 8:51 PM, October 4th (Monday)]

BA,

A post-script. You have written, on more than on post, that your husband is a good, caring and loving father. I would posit the idea that he is, in reality, none of those things right now.

In your own words:

... ended the night leaving with the waittress. She got him in a hotel room because she wanted to take care of him. The kissed and she left because he had too much to drink but left her phone number. I couldn't get a hold of BH all day, and got a call late at night that he was at a hotel and didn't know where he was at, and that he needed me to find him. I went with DD to meet him at the hotel, knowing before I got there that some woman probably just left. He said he missed me and wanted me there and that's why he called me. He kept telling me how beautiful the woman was, how he felt such relief to be with someone that just liked him for him and took care of him. He can't wait to call her next weekend. I told him how much it hurts me that he's seeking comfort from other women, when I beg for the chance to comfort him. But he said I'm the one that hurt him and he doesn't want any comfort from me. That these other women are more exciting, and just kind to him, it made him happy to be away from the hell with me. He said he's not specifically seeking sex, but when another woman likes him he's not going to deny himself the opportunity to be taken care of.

For the your daughter's sake read what you wrote paying particular attention to what I put in bold and italics.

Your husband took another woman to a hotel. Then he called you to come pick him up. And you went - knowing that the other woman probably just left the room.

But worst than that - you took your daughter.

Wake up, BA. These are not the actions of a loving, caring and good father.

But, and here's the real 2x4, your actions aren't really speaking much for you being a loving, caring, good or protective mother.

You're going to do some serious harm to the only truly, completely, utterly innocent and defenseless person in this whole mess - the little girl that is stuck smack dab in the middle of your nearly-psychotic drama.

[This message edited by SouthernGal at 9:28 PM, October 4th (Monday)]

For heaven's sake!

Crappy mother whoo doesn't know how to love...

He is fustrated and"TOLERATED"?

I know a lot of what he says is true

I'm very sorry burntashes but your poor imitation of husband is a nnarcissistic abusive bully asshole.

Ge into counseling ASAP, friend.

He has made you to believe you are not worth wahile faking love for years.